Urine Trouble

[Cheat Or Be Cheated]

Yes, the victim is the USPS, and by extension the citizens of the USA.

But as I have said, how were they defrauded? They got what they wanted - Armstrong could not have done more to fullfill his side of the bargain.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

But as I have said, how were they defrauded? They got what they wanted - Armstrong could not have done more to fullfill his side of the bargain.

Did they "want" him to dope himself and his team to win races? No. The contract forbid it. Doing so is breech. First things first, comply with the contract.

They breeched it. They said they didn't dope but they truly did. For years and years.

The "effect" or "benefit" past the breech is immaterial, though they certainly do not want to have every picture of Lance in a USPS kit going forward to be matched with the terms Fraud, Criminal, Doper, Scammer, Liar, Cheat, Convict, Felon, etc., as that will be the case, not the Champion hogwash that previously had been there.

 

[MarkvW]

Did they "want" him to dope himself and his team to win races? No. The contract forbid it. Doing so is breech. First things first, comply with the contract.

They breeched it. They said they didn't dope but they truly did. For years and years.

The "effect" or "benefit" past the breech is immaterial, though they certainly do not want to have every picture of Lance in a USPS kit going forward to be matched with the terms Fraud, Criminal, Doper, Scammer, Liar, Cheat, Convict, Felon, etc., as that will be the case, not the Champion hogwash that previously had been there.

Contract Breach is not necessarily fraud. It is only contract breach. Sufficient proof of fraud in a civil case is not necessarily sufficient proof of fraud in a criminal case.

Does anybody know where a copy of the Tailwind / USPS contract can be found?

 

[Cheat Or Be Cheated]

Contract Breach is not necessarily fraud. It is only contract breach. Sufficient proof of fraud in a civil case is not necessarily sufficient proof of fraud in a criminal case.

Does anybody know where a copy of the Tailwind / USPS contract can be found?

I believe that's why they're raking through all this other stuff.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I believe that's why they're raking through all this other stuff.

When you say "they", I assume you mean the Food & Drug Administration?

'They' are not interested in the USPS fraud part.
'They' are interested in the drug part - which is not a victimless crime.

 

[Dallas_]

It had no effect on the advertizing deal at the time. That's why I called it a victimless crime. Nobody lost.

cheat or be cheated, a reality check is called for, so just hang on to your seat and inhale slowly.

Must agree with you on point of the advertising for USPS, could be argued, was effective at the time. So at the time receives a mark of Plus One

Now if we move forward in time to when the Grand Jury hand out penalties, including time in the big house for some and miracle boy's public persona being deposited in the garbage bin. Let us examine the state of the USPS public image. Joe and Mary Public suddenly realize that a US gov entity sponsored a bike team using 'boosting methods'.

Are Joe and/or Mary happy with USPS. What do Joe and Mary do with their anger towards USPS. Answer is, from this day forward, whenever possible, they use other entities to send items in the US and abroad.

In other words, the USPS public image has taken a major hit. "no drugs provision" was inserted into the contract to prevent this scenario.

Are you following cheat or be cheated, because this reasoning is all completely relevant and BTW bang on target.


Now let us look at the mathematics:

At the time receives a mark of Plus One

Time after Grand Jury finale . Minus One

So +1 -1 = 0 That equals zero gain for USPS sponsorship money. How many Million dollars evaporated?

But wait, there is more. That Minus One could be interpreted as Minus Two!

Hang on, I was under the impression a sponsor was supposed to receive a benefit from dollars spent!

cheat or be cheated, can you see blatant deception and FRAUD?

Possibly, this case will use a million taxpayers dollars. Inevitably the grand jury will create a tidy profit. Even the PS interns want a profit for taxpayers, don't they!


many cheers

 

[Polish]

—The prosecutors say they will show the jury a urine sample positive for steroids they allege belongs to Bonds.

(Wan't sure if I should post this in the "Barry Bonds" thread or "Urine Trouble" thread...)

http://www.mlbsportsdaily.com/mlb-baseball/feds-outline-evidence-for-bonds-trial-ap.html

 

[veganrob]

(Wan't sure if I should post this in the "Barry Bonds" thread or "Urine Trouble" thread...)

http://www.mlbsportsdaily.com/mlb-baseball/feds-outline-evidence-for-bonds-trial-ap.html

That's fine here. Whatever sport yur in.

 

[MarkvW]

If there is no federal interest in fraud . . .

When you say "they", I assume you mean the Food & Drug Administration?

'They' are not interested in the USPS fraud part.
'They' are interested in the drug part - which is not a victimless crime.

You make a good point suggesting the non-interest of the FDA in any claims of criminal fraud. If you're correct, then I think that we must infer that the FDA is going after dealers. Big expensive investigations rarely target users.

Lance's lawyers said in December that they haven't gotten a target letter. If they're not lying, then the momentum that has been keeping the investigation going all this time is not 'get Lance' momentum. They're going after somebody else, and the only logical target is drug dealers.
Prosecutors are very sensitive to statutes of limitation because they pose a real problem. A prosecution of Lance for possession of PEDS would be dead on arrival, given that there is a five year statute of limitations for dealing or using illegal PEDs. Conspiracy is the only possible relevant exception that I can think of, and I doubt that Lance was a part of a drug dealing conspiracy that extended past February, 2006 (five years ago). Anybody who dismisses the SOL, and who doesn't provide a careful analysis explaining why, is totally full of it.

Maybe something changed, and now the feds are going after Lance, but I doubt it. I think that they want Lance's truthful testimony against his dealer(s). Dr. Maserati makes a great point: Why would the FDA investigate the dickens out of a business fraud case? Regarding Lance, all that's left are charges that are barred by the statute of limitations.

On the other hand, the drug organization that fueled the USPS riders probably is an ongoing conspiracy that makes all sorts of recent dope deals. The old dope dealing (and using) is what they call 404(b) 'other bad act' evidence that can often be used to help prove the recent dope dealing.
These people are organized crime and they are EXACTLY what the feds are supposed to be going after.

I think that the feds want Lance's pee because Lance's bodily fluids are the key to getting Lance's truthful testimony. If you immunize Lance, and if you have Lance's dirty pee (corroborated by his erstwhile colleagues), then Lance faces a beautiful dilemma: Tell the truth and risk forever trashing your reputation, or lie and risk an equally embarrassing perjury prosecution.

A federal investigation of an international dope dealing organization is much, much more probable than a Lance-centric investigation. When this investigation is all over and is submitted to a court, the Feds will care very much about how the investigation is perceived by the public. A "Get Lance" focused investigation would be very bad PR. On the other hand, if Lance is collateral damage in the breakup of a big international dope dealing organization, then the PR is very good.

One more thing: Barry Bonds and Marion Jones were BALCO collateral damage.

 

[Race Radio]

If Armstrong was really concerned about wasting taxpayer funds he should stop his charade and start working on a plea agreement.

Drawing this out with a ridiculous smoke and mirrors media campaign will waste millions of both his and the taxpayer's money. We all know how this movie ends.

 

[D-Queued]

If Armstrong was really concerned about wasting taxpayer funds he should stop his charade and start working on a plea agreement.

Drawing this out with a ridiculous smoke and mirrors media campaign will waste millions of both his and the taxpayer's money. We all know how this movie ends.

Sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about.

I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles

Dave.

 

[MarkvW]

If Armstrong was really concerned about wasting taxpayer funds he should stop his charade and start working on a plea agreement.

Drawing this out with a ridiculous smoke and mirrors media campaign will waste millions of both his and the taxpayer's money. We all know how this movie ends.

It is improbable that Lance is a target of the investigation.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

You make a good point suggesting the non-interest of the FDA in any claims of criminal fraud. If you're correct, then I think that we must infer that the FDA is going after dealers. Big expensive investigations rarely target users.

Lance's lawyers said in December that they haven't gotten a target letter. If they're not lying, then the momentum that has been keeping the investigation going all this time is not 'get Lance' momentum. They're going after somebody else, and the only logical target is drug dealers.
Prosecutors are very sensitive to statutes of limitation because they pose a real problem. A prosecution of Lance for possession of PEDS would be dead on arrival, given that there is a five year statute of limitations for dealing or using illegal PEDs. Conspiracy is the only possible relevant exception that I can think of, and I doubt that Lance was a part of a drug dealing conspiracy that extended past February, 2006 (five years ago). Anybody who dismisses the SOL, and who doesn't provide a careful analysis explaining why, is totally full of it.

Maybe something changed, and now the feds are going after Lance, but I doubt it. I think that they want Lance's truthful testimony against his dealer(s). Dr. Maserati makes a great point: Why would the FDA investigate the dickens out of a business fraud case? Regarding Lance, all that's left are charges that are barred by the statute of limitations.

On the other hand, the drug organization that fueled the USPS riders probably is an ongoing conspiracy that makes all sorts of recent dope deals. The old dope dealing (and using) is what they call 404(b) 'other bad act' evidence that can often be used to help prove the recent dope dealing.
These people are organized crime and they are EXACTLY what the feds are supposed to be going after.

I think that the feds want Lance's pee because Lance's bodily fluids are the key to getting Lance's truthful testimony. If you immunize Lance, and if you have Lance's dirty pee (corroborated by his erstwhile colleagues), then Lance faces a beautiful dilemma: Tell the truth and risk forever trashing your reputation, or lie and risk an equally embarrassing perjury prosecution.

A federal investigation of an international dope dealing organization is much, much more probable than a Lance-centric investigation. When this investigation is all over and is submitted to a court, the Feds will care very much about how the investigation is perceived by the public. A "Get Lance" focused investigation would be very bad PR. On the other hand, if Lance is collateral damage in the breakup of a big international dope dealing organization, then the PR is very good.

One more thing: Barry Bonds and Marion Jones were BALCO collateral damage.

There are 3 investigations going on at present:
1. In to the defrauding of USPS.
2. Use of PED's by the USADA.
3. FDA investigation into the use, trafficking, supply, distribution and financing of PED's.

The FDA will not be particularly interested in the individual users but Armstrong will be in the cross-hairs as he is an 'officer' of Tailwind and therefor tied directly to the financial side.

 

[sartain]

what is "real" jail.......

those country club resorts where most convicted celebrities go to?

roflmao

You think?

Maybe you should ask "Sir" Allen Stnaford (cricket master, billionaire and charged with fraud in 2009) . . .

I would rather not post the direct link to the near death beating he recently took in his "country club resort" down there in the Republic of Texas because it is pretty graphic, but I am sure you can find it on wikipedia, perhaps at Reference #48.

 

[JA.Tri]

If LA:

supplied PEDs to team members?
"encouraged" team members to take PEDs?

would/could this not constitute...trafficking, supply, distribution?

What if the USPS team membership (for a particular race... e.g. Le Tour) was requiring peak performance from a particular (non-specified) rider? This rider not yet a PED participant. And then said rider felt impelled to use PEDs. And in the background senior team members encouraged PEDs. Would this not constitute pushing/inciting (I guess SOL might apply depending on whether conspiracy plays a part)...

The above is thinking aloud... ponderings from limited knowledge .

 

[D-Queued]

It is improbable that Lance is a target of the investigation.

Exactly. He isn't even involved. He is too important to cancer. Like the sig says, he has done too many things for too many people.

Not like they were asking for his urine samples or anything.

Edit to add: And, just because he was taunting Novitzky, that doesn't mean anything. Heck, he is 'probably' offended (you raised hte probability argument) that he isn't the center of attention.

Dave.

 

[Dallas_]

Game on target

Exactly. He isn't even involved. He is too important to cancer. Like the sig says, he has done too many things for too many people.

Not like they were asking for his urine samples or anything.

Edit to add: And, just because he was taunting Novitzky, that doesn't mean anything. Heck, he is 'probably' offended (you raised hte probability argument) that he isn't the center of attention.

Dave.

Correct Dave and must thank Polish for the following link

"The prosecutors say they will show the jury a urine sample positive for steroids they allege belongs to Bonds"

http://www.mlbsportsdaily.com/mlb-baseball/feds-outline-evidence-for-bonds-trial-ap.html

Regarding Bonds and Armstrong, urine samples will be used as evidence.

Advice: Being a target, do not taunt Novi on twitter.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bNE-5TVAmg&feature=related

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

Considering Novitzky's history, if Lance were not a target of the investigations, indictments already should have been announced. The only (2) plausible explanations for the delay are that, in a nation whose legal system acquitted OJ of murder, (1) the indictments already are sealed pending further investigation or that (2) the feds are shoring up their iron-clad evidence for some crime whose statute of limitations extends beyond 2010.

 

[fatandfast]

Considering Novitzky's history, if Lance were not a target of the investigations, indictments already should have been announced. The only (2) plausible explanations for the delay are that, in a nation whose legal system acquitted OJ of murder, (1) the indictments already are sealed pending further investigation or that (2) the feds are shoring up their iron-clad evidence for some crime whose statute of limitations extends beyond 2010.

Novitzky didn't work on anything OJ. You should check a little more of his
"history" 2 of his cases this year are so weak and years long that judges have asked them to be mediated outside the courtroom. Iron clad is not part of Novizky's recent history.

 

[Benotti69]

If Armstrong was really concerned about wasting taxpayer funds he should stop his charade and start working on a plea agreement.

Drawing this out with a ridiculous smoke and mirrors media campaign will waste millions of both his and the taxpayer's money. We all know how this movie ends.

yep and the popcorn is tasteless too.

 

[Race Radio]

Novitzky didn't work on anything OJ. You should check a little more of his
"history" 2 of his cases this year are so weak and years long that judges have asked them to be mediated outside the courtroom. Iron clad is not part of Novizky's recent history.

It is a common request that happens in most trials.

 

[Race Radio]

Considering Novitzky's history, if Lance were not a target of the investigations, indictments already should have been announced. The only (2) plausible explanations for the delay are that, in a nation whose legal system acquitted OJ of murder, (1) the indictments already are sealed pending further investigation or that (2) the feds are shoring up their iron-clad evidence for some crime whose statute of limitations extends beyond 2010.

If anything the case is moving rapidly. Cases like this take time, often years, and any faster and the groupies would be crying about a rush to judgement. Even in Spain it took them 3 years to act on Operation Puerto.

 

[BotanyBay]

If there were nothing to this case, Novitzky's superiors would have long since pulled him off of it and assigned him to something else. He does have a job, with bosses and accountability, etc.

 

[Race Radio]

If there were nothing to this case, Novitzky's superiors would have long since pulled him off of it and assigned him to something else. He does have a job, with bosses and accountability, etc.

True.

This is not Novtizky's case, it is Doug Miller's......whose office BTW has the highest conviction rate in the country.

 

[sniper]

True.

This is not Novtizky's case, it is Doug Miller's......whose office BTW has the highest conviction rate in the country.

agreed, but don't LA's lawyers have the highest acquittal rate in the country?

p.s. not that I think LA will walk, but hey, just trying to make a point.