US prosecutors drop case against Armstrong/USPS

[oldschoolnik]

Taken down

Was this was already taken down? It was just posted. Wonder who reads these forums?

http://trainwesthollywood.com/trainers/andre-birotte-jr/[/QUOTE]

Andre Birotte was a personal trainer while also working as inspector general. Check out the gear heads shown on the linked site.

http://www.mainjustice.com/2010/01/15/meet-andre-birotte-jr/

http://trainwesthollywood.com/trainers/andre-birotte-jr/

 

[Abstainer]

No its not being silly, all part of the obfuscation that continues as the fear hasn't gone away ya know.

Picked 1996 as the year a TdF winner admitted to doping and after that he would like us to believe it was 'cleaner' no doubt.

I believe we will see a trend back to trying to deny the doping or at least make the argument that Armstrong took very little because he had just got over cancer bla blah......

Not at all. I think more red corpuscles were racing in 1996 than at any TdeF before or since. Just watch it on DVD - makes Armstrong 2001 look positively pedestrian.

Don't misunderstand me - from 1996 to 2010, there is no question that blood manipulation remained pretty universal (certainly among the GC contenders) but it was not quite at the same extravagant level.

 

[Benotti69]

Not at all. I think more red corpuscles were racing in 1996 than at any TdeF before or since. Just watch it on DVD - makes Armstrong 2001 look positively pedestrian.

Don't misunderstand me - from 1996 to 2010, there is no question that blood manipulation remained pretty universal (certainly among the GC contenders) but it was not quite at the same extravagant level.

Oh i think USPS took enough for half the peloton to keep things in the extravagant levels.

They had to sell team bikes they were doing so much.

 

[Race Radio]

I think they would have based a federal case on more than hearsay alone.

Hearsay?

You need to brush up on your legal terms, direct witness testimony is not hearsay

 

[pmcg76]

I really dont have much faith in USADA getting the business done but will follow with hope.

What kind of evidence would they need? Testimonies? Hard eveidence etc?

Would 4 or 5 testimonies from former team-mates be sufficent to sanction a rider. Say for example Landis, Hamilton, Andreu, Hincapie and Leipheimer all gave testimonies that they witnessed Armstrong doping. Would that be enough? especially in the light that the first 3 are considered unreliable witnesses by Armstrong and his lawyers or is it a case that if Hincapie and Leipheimer confirmed the other testimonies, would they then all be considered valid.

I dont follow these cases closely and dont know all the ins and outs so just really seeking some info.

 

[Benotti69]

I really dont have much faith in USADA getting the business done but will follow with hope.

What kind of evidence would they need? Testimonies? Hard eveidence etc?

Would 4 or 5 testimonies from former team-mates be sufficent to sanction a rider. Say for example Landis, Hamilton, Andreu, Hincapie and Leipheimer all gave testimonies that they witnessed Armstrong doping. Would that be enough? especially in the light that the first 3 are considered unreliable witnesses by Armstrong and his lawyers or is it a case that if Hincapie and Leipheimer confirmed the other testimonies, would they then all be considered valid.

I dont follow these cases closely and dont know all the ins and outs so just really seeking some info.

What about payments to Ferarri? What about HemAssist and Amgen? What about sales of Team Bikes? What about retested samples?

I wonder can WADA get his 2008/2009 samples retested? What about his bio passport?

 

[BotanyBay]

No its not being silly, all part of the obfuscation that continues as the fear hasn't gone away ya know.

Picked 1996 as the year a TdF winner admitted to doping and after that he would like us to believe it was 'cleaner' no doubt.

I believe we will see a trend back to trying to deny the doping or at least make the argument that Armstrong took very little because he had just got over cancer bla blah......

Even Garmin joined-in on the "This is a clean sport" rhetoric in this weekend's press-quote reactions. Gee JV, if this is a "clean sport", then why did we ever need a "clean team" such as yours?

 

[Benotti69]

Even Garmin joined-in on the "This is a clean sport" rhetoric in this weekend's press-quote reactions. Gee JV, if this is a "clean sport", then why did we ever need a "clean team" such as yours?

I never believed JV and his clean team. JV is a fraud.

 

[thehog]

I really dont have much faith in USADA getting the business done but will follow with hope.

What kind of evidence would they need? Testimonies? Hard eveidence etc?

Would 4 or 5 testimonies from former team-mates be sufficent to sanction a rider. Say for example Landis, Hamilton, Andreu, Hincapie and Leipheimer all gave testimonies that they witnessed Armstrong doping. Would that be enough? especially in the light that the first 3 are considered unreliable witnesses by Armstrong and his lawyers or is it a case that if Hincapie and Leipheimer confirmed the other testimonies, would they then all be considered valid.

I dont follow these cases closely and dont know all the ins and outs so just really seeking some info.

Even if they had records from the Feds of Armstrong purchasing dope from Ferrari etc. doesn’t mean much in a sporting context. Doesn’t mean he used. We all would know that he did but I don’t think they’ll get sanctions from it. At least with Valverde and Ullrich they had blood bags and DNA.

Besides I’m sure Fabani has the evidence locked up in legal wrangling for the next few years. It will take time to interpret what can be given across and what cannot.

In addition if Fabani and Lance finally get to view the evidence they will get to chase down who worked against them.

It’s a lose lose situation.

My view is Nov is not finished here. He will be working to find more about what the case was closed down. He may decide to make this an IRS issue alone.

 

[Race Radio]

Was this was already taken down? It was just posted. Wonder who reads these forums?

http://trainwesthollywood.com/trainers/andre-birotte-jr/

I am sure some find it funny that the guy who let Wonderboy off the hook moonlights as a trainer at a gay gym but it really shouldn't be a part of the discussion.

Far more important is the massive political pressure that led him to ignore the investigators and drop the case.

 

[thehog]

I am sure some find it funny that the guy who let Wonderboy off the hook moonlights as a trainer at a gay gym but it really shouldn't be a part of the discussion.

Far more important is the massive political pressure that led him to ignore the investigators and drop the case.

I knew Mcconaughey helped him get off!

 

[pmcg76]

What about payments to Ferarri? What about HemAssist and Amgen? What about sales of Team Bikes? What about retested samples?

I wonder can WADA get his 2008/2009 samples retested? What about his bio passport?

OK, thats what I am talking about but would testimonies be sufficent alone.

 

[pmcg76]

Even if they had records from the Feds of Armstrong purchasing dope from Ferrari etc. doesn’t mean much in a sporting context. Doesn’t mean he used. We all would know that he did but I don’t think they’ll get sanctions from it. At least with Valverde and Ullrich they had blood bags and DNA.

Besides I’m sure Fabani has the evidence locked up in legal wrangling for the next few years. It will take time to interpret what can be given across and what cannot.

In addition if Fabani and Lance finally get to view the evidence they will get to chase down who worked against them.

It’s a lose lose situation.

My view is Nov is not finished here. He will be working to find more about what the case was closed down. He may decide to make this an IRS issue alone.

But how is purchasing drugs and not using them different than having matching blood bags and not using them like Basso claimed?? Surely both would suggest an intention to dope!!

 

[thehog]

But how is purchasing drugs and not using them different than having matching blood bags and not using them like Basso claimed?? Surely both would suggest an intention to dope!!

I’m just surmising. I really can’t see how USADA can get much. I see most of the evidence will be sealed and locked away. What they do get will prove what? Ullrich and Basso both had DNA, blood bags, doping records all captured. No doping positive but the DNA is a very strong link. With Armstrong it will be records, phone calls, bank transfers etc. Not sure Fabani would allow any of that to be released. Even if it was Armstrong would claim the payments were for “coaching advice” Frank Shleck style. And if for medicine he’ll claim it’s for “home remedies” etc.

It just wishful thinking that it will amount to much because he dodged a massive bullet.

I think we’ll need to let it go and read about it in 2025 when it doesn’t matter much anymore.

 

[BotanyBay]

I am sure some find it funny that the guy who let Wonderboy off the hook moonlights as a trainer at a gay gym but it really shouldn't be a part of the discussion.

Far more important is the massive political pressure that led him to ignore the investigators and drop the case.

The solace is that Wunderboy paid dearly for his freedom here. So costly that combined with his lifestyle, I predict the "Death spiral" of his empire. I think he tipped it beyond his means to pay. he may have withstood the initial impact, but he'll still fall. This weekend was hardly a "vindicating" mood felt throughout the country. His reputation is severely damaged (beyond repair). People generally know about the asterisks.

 

[pmcg76]

I’m just surmising. I really can’t see how USADA can get much. I see most of the evidence will be sealed and locked away. What they do get will prove what? Ullrich and Basso both had DNA, blood bags, doping records all captured. No doping positive but the DNA is a very strong link. With Armstrong it will be records, phone calls, bank transfers etc. Not sure Fabani would allow any of that to be released. Even if it was Armstrong would claim the payments were for “coaching advice” Frank Shleck style. And if for medicine he’ll claim it’s for “home remedies” etc.

It just wishful thinking that it will amount to much because he dodged a massive bullet.

I think we’ll need to let it go and read about it in 2025 when it doesn’t matter much anymore.

I would agree with you in that evidence not standing up, I would be more pinning my hopes on first hand witness testimonies. I hope your wrong on not sharing evidence.

 

[Maxiton]

<snipped for brevity>
And now to add insult to the injury, Contador receives his just punishment, but Lance walks "clean." There truly is no justice in this world.

You're saying, in other words, that he personifies several geo-political phenomena - US hegemony, and in particular the country's less savory cultural characteristics (among them being gluttony and bullying); the leveling of cultures globally; et cetera - you find repugnant. George W. on a bike, if you will.

You won't get any argument from me (especially in light of the moderator's prohibition against discussing it further here). I feel ya. I mean, I really do, I feel the same as you about him. My point stands, however, in that if he were a European a-hole, with characteristics that were wholly different but no less repugnant, you and other Euros would have no problem with him, or far less problem, anyway.

And that's all I'm going to say on the matter. Also, I've suspected all along that LA had a hand somehow in Contador's sample being sent off for extra scrutiny, which, if true, makes today's outcome all the more disgusting.

 

[9000ft]

So for all you guys who want the USADA to go after Armstrong, how much of it's limited resources do you think it should devote to that? Since going after Armstrong would divert resources from current activities, how much do you think is appropriate?

This is a serious question. Take away whatever your feelings of LA are and consider there would be a cost benefit ratio.

 

[sagard]

And that's all I'm going to say on the matter. Also, I've suspected all along that LA had a hand somehow in Contador's sample being sent off for extra scrutiny, which, if true, makes today's outcome all the more disgusting.

This is pretty far fetched. Armstong has everything to lose with AC getting busted and nothing to gain. A shamed and belligerent AC could blow the whistle on cycling and confirm the Landis stories about doping procedures. Luckily for Armstrong, it appears Contador is going to simply take his 7 month suspension in stride and get back to kicking everyones tail.

 

[straydog]

I am sure some find it funny that the guy who let Wonderboy off the hook moonlights as a trainer at a gay gym but it really shouldn't be a part of the discussion.

Far more important is the massive political pressure that led him to ignore the investigators and drop the case.

Ok...I have been resisting getting in anyway involved in this thread but here goes...

I've got to hand it to you Race....on the whole you have handled this er "defeat" pretty well....Props to you...I particularly enjoyed your joke about your weekly long ride with Polish being less tense....properly made me laugh.

Not much to say further than that really....I am avoiding any semblance of gloating as of yet...and have put on hold my idea for a new thread "Favorite predictions about the federal investigation that didn't come true"

Just one semi contentious thing to add though....way up thread Dim mentioned he was thinking or "hoping" perhaps that the USADA case would deal out the "justice" and then the feds would re open a case....

On that scale thing you guys used to quote at me...you know...the Grief one...I'd say that Dim's clearly still at 1...I like Dim so I don't want it to appear that I am singling him out, but honestly, that is about as likely as Contador winning the tour this year (Did I miss something?). As far as I would imagine any GJ testimony wouldn't be shared with USADA, and seeing as the investigation's thrust was fraud and not doping, I'm wondering what real "concrete" evidence of doping violations other than hearsay they would have unearthed that wasn't already available to WADA or USADA, and even if sanctions were imposed, I don't see how that would ever cause Novitsky (" he's like the Elliot Ness of Investigators"...ok just one funny quote) to re open proceedings.

Honestly....it looks like this one is done. And at the risk of winding anyone up, my advice would be to not get your hopes built up too much about a USADA case, or to air your "predictions" or "sources" too much over the next couple of months before the inevitable announcement of "no case to answer"...cos you know, once is carelessness...twice can be seen as stupidity.

Honestly though Race....I did laugh a lot at the Polish joke....very funny.

Peace

 

[Maxiton]

This is pretty far fetched. Armstong has everything to lose with AC getting busted and nothing to gain. A shamed and belligerent AC could blow the whistle on cycling and confirm the Landis stories about doping procedures. Luckily for Armstrong, it appears Contador is going to simply take his 7 month suspension in stride and get back to kicking everyones tail.

If you think that's farfetched, you don't know LA and his connections. If he could screw Contador, he would. And he very likely could . . . . As for Contador blowing the whistle, gimme a break. He would only think about doing that if, like Landis, his career were completely finished. But it's far from finished, just a little bit bruised.

 

[Boeing]

I would agree with you in that evidence not standing up, I would be more pinning my hopes on first hand witness testimonies. I hope your wrong on not sharing evidence.

I don't think the USADA has subpoena power. from my limited read on the subject so it would have to rely on shared testimony.

 

[straydog]

I’m just surmising. I really can’t see how USADA can get much. I see most of the evidence will be sealed and locked away. What they do get will prove what? Ullrich and Basso both had DNA, blood bags, doping records all captured. No doping positive but the DNA is a very strong link. With Armstrong it will be records, phone calls, bank transfers etc. Not sure Fabani would allow any of that to be released. Even if it was Armstrong would claim the payments were for “coaching advice” Frank Shleck style. And if for medicine he’ll claim it’s for “home remedies” etc.

It just wishful thinking that it will amount to much because he dodged a massive bullet.

I think we’ll need to let it go and read about it in 2025 when it doesn’t matter much anymore.

Hog....what's happened to you?

This to my mind is the most sensible thing I have seen written on this....I completely concur.

Wow...er....well done!

 

[VeloCity]

Ok...I have been resisting getting in anyway involved in this thread but here goes...

I've got to hand it to you Race....on the whole you have handled this er "defeat" pretty well....Props to you...I particularly enjoyed your joke about your weekly long ride with Polish being less tense....properly made me laugh.

Not much to say further than that really....I am avoiding any semblance of gloating as of yet...and have put on hold my idea for a new thread "Favorite predictions about the federal investigation that didn't come true"

Just one semi contentious thing to add though....way up thread Dim mentioned he was thinking or "hoping" perhaps that the USADA case would deal out the "justice" and then the feds would re open a case....

On that scale thing you guys used to quote at me...you know...the Grief one...I'd say that Dim's clearly still at 1...I like Dim so I don't want it to appear that I am singling him out, but honestly, that is about as likely as Contador winning the tour this year (Did I miss something?). As far as I would imagine any GJ testimony wouldn't be shared with USADA, and seeing as the investigation's thrust was fraud and not doping, I'm wondering what real "concrete" evidence of doping violations other than hearsay they would have unearthed that wasn't already available to WADA or USADA, and even if sanctions were imposed, I don't see how that would ever cause Novitsky (" he's like the Elliot Ness of Investigators"...ok just one funny quote) to re open proceedings.

Honestly....it looks like this one is done. And at the risk of winding anyone up, my advice would be to not get your hopes built up too much about a USADA case, or to air your "predictions" or "sources" too much over the next couple of months before the inevitable announcement of "no case to answer"...cos you know, once is carelessness...twice can be seen as stupidity.

Honestly though Race....I did laugh a lot at the Polish joke....very funny.

Peace

Doesn't really matter - at some point the whole thing will be leaked, probably falling conveniently into Julie Mancur's lap.

 

[pmcg76]

So for all you guys who want the USADA to go after Armstrong, how much of it's limited resources do you think it should devote to that? Since going after Armstrong would divert resources from current activities, how much do you think is appropriate?

This is a serious question. Take away whatever your feelings of LA are and consider there would be a cost benefit ratio.

Well how much would it take, if they are able to garner for example the testimonies from the Fed investigaion. Do they have to pay for that information?

As I alluded to previoulsy, if the USADA were able to get their hands on the testimonies of those called to give evidence and they all match? What is the next stage? Would more proof be required?

I really dont know and that is why I am asking.

I just think it would send a very powerful message if the richest and most powerful cyclist of all-time was actually sanctioned.