US prosecutors drop case against Armstrong/USPS

[BotanyBay]

Yep. Give credit where credit is due. It cost Lance a chunk of his wealth but he hired the right people and greased the right skids.

It's not what you know, but who you know and how much money they cost.

It likely cost him double-digit percentages of his wealth. Which means we'll soon be seeing more of his annoying self as he tries to re-build his brand.

 

[MarkvW]

The only people writing about corruption/conspiracy are you, Chris, and Goober.

I don't see a conspiracy. I see a wealthy, famous, person who made full use of the resources at his disposal.

Yes! A wealthy, famous, person who made full use of the resources at his disposal ... despite overwhelming evidence of his guilt developed in an intensive two-year investigation ... to avoid criminal prosecution!

Amazing! How did Lance manage to do that without a conspiracy?

And how does "Borat" fit into this "non-conspiracy?"

Keep digging RR! The truth is out there!

 

[Anonymous]

Yes! A wealthy, famous, person who made full use of the resources at his disposal ... despite overwhelming evidence of his guilt developed in an intensive two-year investigation ... to avoid criminal prosecution!

Amazing! How did Lance manage to do that without a conspiracy?

And how does "Borat" fit into this "non-conspiracy?"

Keep digging RR! The truth is out there!

Two words. Political. Expediency.

Definition of POLITICAL
1
a : of or relating to government, a government, or the conduct of government b : of, relating to, or concerned with the making as distinguished from the administration of governmental policy
2
: of, relating to, involving, or involved in politics and especially party politics
3
: organized in governmental terms <political units>
4
: involving or charged or concerned with acts against a government or a political system

Definition of EXPEDIENT
1
: suitable for achieving a particular end in a given circumstance
2
: characterized by concern with what is opportune; especially : governed by self-interest

 

[MarkvW]

Well, I would broadly put them as anti-Lance. I really don't see why you're trying to read so much into such a small part of what I said. I said "both" to mean "this group and that group". Not to say that everyone calls each other pathetic all the time. I just had a go at a poster who has a history of making destructive posts like that, that's all.

Sorry. I wasn't railing at your post. Just against the us against them mentality.

 

[Velodude]

"Both" sides? Are there only two?

Three if you count yourself.

Oscillators/fencesitters

 

[MarkvW]

Two words. Political. Expediency.

Definition of POLITICAL
1
a : of or relating to government, a government, or the conduct of government b : of, relating to, or concerned with the making as distinguished from the administration of governmental policy
2
: of, relating to, involving, or involved in politics and especially party politics
3
: organized in governmental terms <political units>
4
: involving or charged or concerned with acts against a government or a political system

Definition of EXPEDIENT
1
: suitable for achieving a particular end in a given circumstance
2
: characterized by concern with what is opportune; especially : governed by self-interest

Is that just another way of saying prosecutorial discretion?

 

[Caruut]

Sorry. I wasn't railing at your post. Just against the us against them mentality.

I was kinda trying to do the same, I was trying to sort of say that the way a lot of "discussions" take place here is going to end up with no-one changing their point of view.

Personally, I can't imagine what it would take for me to believe in Lance again. It seems odd that after all this time, they aren't even trying to bring a case to court or show what they've got. Maybe for all the digging they've done, they just know that Lance's team are too good for a case with the slightest of holes in it, and that can't present a case that good

Certainly, I think it likely that Lance has done his best to pull strings. Who he asked, how willing they were to act on his behalf and how much effect they have had or would have had I can't even begin to speculate on.

 

[MarkvW]

Three if you count yourself.

Oscillators/fencesitters

Carrut: This is a classic example of the us against them mentality by one of its most fervent practitioners (and the author of one of my examples).

 

[thehog]

I don't live in the binary world, so your if/then statement does not apply to me.

The obsession with seeing him fall, clinging to "hope" lol, is much more indicative of some type of emotional issue than just letting go. I have found new respect for posters like Berzin and the hog the last month, while the respect for others takes further hits daily.

I haven't posted much lately because it is like trying to talk reason with a cult. It doesn't work.

Thank-you.

And you're right. I've lost a lot interest in the story. If Lance decided to make Comeback 3.0 then my anger would rise again but I really don't care anymore. He has to live with himself and what he's done. In addition I can help those who he hurt. Everyone has to move on. I don’t think there would be any satisfaction in Armstrong being charged, convicted and marched off to jail. If that’s what we as humans need to make ourselves feel better then I think that says a lot about us! Maybe he deserved to be imprisoned? Maybe not. We’ll never know but willing him locked up is a little sick. I wouldn’t want that for anyone. The only thing I wanted was him away from cycling and that’s been achieved. In my books Lance is a knobend. I laugh at him rather than angered by him. He is a bit of joke to be honest.

I think the problem is that when you put someone on a pedestal as many did with Lance they will ultimately be disappointed. The fans should hold some responsibility into turning him into something he was clearly not. It wasn't all Lance's fault it went this far.

In all of this mess there's really only one person I hold respect for and that’s Floyd. I know that if there's ever a time when I've made a horrible mistake in my life that I would have the courage he had to do what he did and confess. That’s mighty impressive. It restores my faith in this world that there is some basic goodness in people...

 

[Race Radio]

Amazing! How did Lance manage to do that without a conspiracy?

You should ask Goober, he claims corruption. I don't see it. I am sorry you think such dark and unsavory practices are possible. I don't. Reminds me of my favorite Lance speech

Finally, the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics: I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles.

Maybe it is the fault of the French? It can't be a good Lance conspiracy without the French

 

[Polish]

The only people writing about corruption/conspiracy are you, Chris, and Goober.

I don't see a conspiracy. I see a wealthy, famous, person who made full use of the resources at his disposal.

Where did Goober say Birotte was corrupt?
He said the Investigation was corrupt. BIG difference.

Birotte did everything by the book as far as Lance and insufficient evidence is concerned. Dotted all the i's and crossed all the t's. He knew there would be a media meltdown. Munson/WSJ/Blogs/Toto. That is why he made the insufficient evidence dropped case public in the first place. Made sure to do everything by the book. True Pro.

But the question remains why there was such a media circus during most of the investigation? Up until the motion was filed. And then again 12 hours after the investigation was dropped for insufficient evidence. That points towards Goober's corruption insinuation. Follow the leaks.

 

[Anonymous]

Is that just another way of saying prosecutorial discretion?

Sure. When Birotte got the call telling him to fold his tent, he did.

 

[Anonymous]

Where did Goober say Birotte was corrupt?
He said the Investigation was corrupt. BIG difference.

Birotte did everything by the book as far as Lance and insufficient evidence is concerned. Dotted all the i's and crossed all the t's. He knew there would be a media meltdown. Munson/WSJ/Blogs/Toto. That is why he made the insufficient evidence dropped case public in the first place. Made sure to do everything by the book. True Pro.

But the question remains why there was such a media circus during most of the investigation? Up until the motion was filed. And then again 12 hours after the investigation was dropped for insufficient evidence. That points towards Goober's corruption insinuation. Follow the leaks.

He knew there would be a media meltdown.

Which is why, when one in Birrotte's position has something to hide, the said decision is released to the press in the Friday afternoon (before the Superbowl) document dump. lol

SSDD.

 

[MarkvW]

I was kinda trying to do the same, I was trying to sort of say that the way a lot of "discussions" take place here is going to end up with no-one changing their point of view.

Personally, I can't imagine what it would take for me to believe in Lance again. It seems odd that after all this time, they aren't even trying to bring a case to court or show what they've got. Maybe for all the digging they've done, they just know that Lance's team are too good for a case with the slightest of holes in it, and that can't present a case that good

Certainly, I think it likely that Lance has done his best to pull strings. Who he asked, how willing they were to act on his behalf and how much effect they have had or would have had I can't even begin to speculate on.

The feds win all the time because they only secure indictments in strong cases. They are definitely in the 'come strong or don't come at all' mentality. That's where I start. Then, you've got the gaping and grievous wound that would result if they took Lance to trial and lost. A prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich, but a federal prosecutor is not going to ask the GJ to indict Lance unless he can obliterate Lance. A close case was never going to get charged.

Any debate over how strong the feds' case was is more than a little ridiculous. Nobody knows what evidence the feds had, or how strong their case was. You can have lots of evidence, but if you're just a little short on one element of the charged crime, then the case doesn't get charged.

No commentator is able to put himself or herself into Mr. Birotte's shoes, because of the secrecy of the GJ proceedings, so no commentator can fairly evaluate the strength of the Government's case.

But, of course any imaginable type of misbehavior is possible . . .

 

[MarkvW]

Sure. When Birotte got the call telling him to fold his tent, he did.

Too bad that you can't reveal your secret source for that call! Fantastic detective work, though. You'll get to the bottom of it sooner or later!

 

[Polish]

Which is why, when one in Birrotte's position has something to hide, the said decision is released to the press in the Friday afternoon (before the Superbowl) document dump. lol

SSDD.

There very well may be something to hide.
But not about Lance or the insufficient evidence.

But if he truly wanted to hide - why make the press statement in the first place? That whole "Friday before SuperBowl" spiel is funny btw.

Maybe a Tuesday during the Tour de France would have been a better day?
Or maybe a Tuesday during the Tour of California?
More of a media circus then for sure.
Why would Birotte NOT want a media circus I wonder?
SSDD indeed

 

[Benotti69]

<snip>


Why would Birotte NOT want a media circus I wonder?

To avoid in depth media analysis.

 

[Polish]

To avoid in depth media analysis.

I agree for the most part.
Except I would replace "analysis" with "media circus".

What if Birotte reviewed the case in depth, and realize that he truly had a leaky smearjob witch hunt on his hands.
He might want to call Lance and apoligize - but that would be innapropriate.

So he might close the case publicy (rare) in order to shut off the media circus. But since Lance has suffered enough smearing already, the Friday before the SuperBowl would be a perfect time to make the announcement.
Does NOT want the circus to continue. STOP IT NOW. NO QUESTIONS.

The guy is a Pro like I said.

 

[MarkvW]

To avoid in depth media analysis.

"In depth . . . analysis" is not something that the media does well on Saturday through Thursday. I wouldn't expect any deeper or more thorough analysis on a Friday.

News is released at certain times in the hope that the INTENSITY of media coverage will be relaxed.

 

[BotanyBay]

Is that just another way of saying prosecutorial discretion?

The discretion to play political ball (and to be a political ball PLAYER).

All the more reasons to dislike Obama. Birotte knew that Obama didn't want this prosecution, so he killed it. So did he kill it?

 

[Anonymous]

Too bad that you can't reveal your secret source for that call! Fantastic detective work, though. You'll get to the bottom of it sooner or later!

You got me.

Given the nature of the investigation, the resources, time consumed and the players involved I am now sure Birotte acted completely unilaterally and shut it down.

I'm thinking those above his pay grade were just as surprised as those below. That Birotte is a freaking maverick. Maybe after Holder's job even.

 

[BotanyBay]

You got me.

Given the nature of the investigation, the resources, time consumed and the players involved I am now sure Birotte acted completely unilaterally and shut it down.

I'm thinking those above his pay grade were just as surprised as those below. That Birotte is a freaking maverick. Maybe after Holder's job even.

Birotte didn't get his current job without owning a good political barometer. A few subtly phrased thoughts transmitted to a bunch of smart people at a senior staff meeting can have some interesting results when the rubber eventually hits the road.

Those above him were obviously surprised:

 

[Anonymous]

The feds win all the time because they only secure indictments in strong cases. They are definitely in the 'come strong or don't come at all' mentality. That's where I start. Then, you've got the gaping and grievous wound that would result if they took Lance to trial and lost. A prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich, but a federal prosecutor is not going to ask the GJ to indict Lance unless he can obliterate Lance. A close case was never going to get charged.

Any debate over how strong the feds' case was is more than a little ridiculous. Nobody knows what evidence the feds had, or how strong their case was. You can have lots of evidence, but if you're just a little short on one element of the charged crime, then the case doesn't get charged.

No commentator is able to put himself or herself into Mr. Birotte's shoes, because of the secrecy of the GJ proceedings, so no commentator can fairly evaluate the strength of the Government's case.

But, of course any imaginable type of misbehavior is possible . . .

Nobody knows what evidence the feds had, or how strong their case was.

A straight up falsehood.

There are a number of people who know the nature and quality of the evidence. Jeff Novitsky and Doug Miller to name just two, plus probably dozens of minions as well as numerous others from the FBI and IRS.

At least initially, some of them were willing to voice their displeasure with the dismissal..."Sources who know about the case say that within the agencies involved in the investigation, the FBI, the FDA, the US Postal Service, there is surprise, even shock and anger about the US Attorney’s decision,” he said on today’s NPR sports news.

Surprise, shock and anger at Birotte's decision by the investigators.

SSDD?

 

[BotanyBay]

A straight up falsehood.

There are a number of people who know the nature and quality of the evidence. Jeff Novitsky and Doug Miller to name just two, plus probably dozens of minions as well as numerous others from the FBI and IRS.

At least initially, some of them were willing to voice their displeasure with the dismissal..."Sources who know about the case say that within the agencies involved in the investigation, the FBI, the FDA, the US Postal Service, there is surprise, even shock and anger about the US Attorney’s decision,” he said on today’s NPR sports news.

Surprise, shock and anger at Birotte's decision by the investigators.

SSDD?

If these guys were 100% sure that they'd have convicted Lance (had Birotte OK'd the indictment), I think we'd be talking about more than one anonymous source quoted widely (in 1-2 days) by multiple news orgs. Don't let the current laziness of the journalism trade fool you into thinking that a storm is currently brewing inside this clusterf***. I still think that Birotte was just being conservative in the midst of a political climate of "Guys, don't any of you F me during an election season".

Lower level federal prosecutors will indict just to make their guilty subjects "feel" the weight of the DOJ. As you know, most defendants are smart enough to know they can't fight it well. But Lance has cash and some talented lawers. He not only hired good PR people, but the TOP lawyers that money can buy.

 

[Anonymous]

If these guys were 100% sure that they'd have convicted Lance (had Birotte OK'd the indictment), I think we'd be talking about more than one anonymous source quoted widely (in 1-2 days) by multiple news orgs. Don't let the current laziness of the journalism trade fool you into thinking that a storm is currently brewing inside this clusterf***. I still think that Birotte was just being conservative in the midst of a political climate of "Guys, don't any of you F me during an election season".

Lower level federal prosecutors will indict just to make their guilty subjects "feel" the weight of the DOJ. As you know, most defendants are smart enough to know they can't fight it well. But Lance has cash and some talented lawers. He not only hired good PR people, but the TOP lawyers that money can buy.

Which all circles back to an expedient decision based on political considerations.