Briant_Gumble said:
there are/will be a lot of this sort of thing going on
what concerns me is that these pages are not set up by kids with no idea, but by adults who have professional jobs, get to vote, have children, and so on
there are/will be a lot of this sort of thing going on
what concerns me is that these pages are not set up by kids with no idea, but by adults who have professional jobs, get to vote, have children, and so on
- Jul 10, 2010
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Race Radio said:
THANK YOU RR!. Good idea, to start an evidence thread, and populate it with exactly that.
DominicDecoco said:
Thank you DD! For posting that excellent gif: "Dis gon b good".
BotanyBay said:
Thank you BB! For taking a wise move, and asking the thread be restricted to postings with new evidence. Excellent idea.
Now, everybody else who posted comments in that thread? Please shut your trap there, and speak your mind here. We can link our responses to the Evidence thread. Thank you for your cooperation!
Dr. Maserati said:
Well, here are a few, just random ones, where the implication is that the punishment and/or the process has eitehr been too severe or heavy-handled (which is what I originally said). There are also elements of what you suggest but that's ok too, because the point I was trying to make is that there are plenty of journalists out there who are not simply reporting this story as "bad guy-doper gets lifetime ban", and who instead appear to be at least partially influenced to report some of what others here in the Clinic have called "PR spin."
There's this one by Tracee Hamilton from the Washington Post
Or this one that was discussed here yesterday.
Or this one from the NY Times, (which does mention charity in two paragraphs, but which is focused much more on other aspects of the effects of his ban.
Or this one from a Washikngton Post columnist which laments our "hero shortage."
Or this from Bleacher Report (which is pretty popular among "general" sports fans of mainstream sports such as baseball, football, etc, titled "Lance Armstrong: Has USADA's Inquisition Damaged the Case Against Him?" This article has paragraphs which lead off with the following language: "Let’s assume that Lance Armstrong was doping throughout his career. So what?" and "The USADA case could be compelling and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Armstrong was guilty, but we’ll never know. And that’s a pity, but it doesn’t really matter." and this: "The truth, inevitably, will never be known and almost seems irrelevant." The same opinion piece also tries to make the point that USADA went easy on sprinter Justin Gatlin in 2006 for his testosterone doping and who negotiated an 8 year ban down to a 4 year ban, avoiding a lifetime ban, whereas it went hard on LA, even though Gatlin was a multiple doping violator, having also been caught for amphetamine use in 2001. One could say that this instead is evidence that the USADA will work with those who cooperate, but I don't think that's the author's point in this piece.
Or there's this one from the Daily Caller in which a crisis management expert opines that Armstrong chose not to fight the process because, in this day age he can't possibly ever win.
Finally, just this morning, I noticedthis one(again on the first page of results) from Newsweek in which the headline blares: "To Hell with the Doping Charges, Lance Armstrong Performed Miracles; Why I Still Believe." Say what you will about the author, but the point is, Newsweek is hardly a fringe publication and this message is being put out there just as promiently as are the stories about LA being a cheater and deserving of the sanctions against him.
All of these were in the first page of results of a Google News search. If one eliminates the multiple repeats of the same AP stories (which is what one mostly finds with a Google News search), I think LA's PR spin, or at least what I'd say is a fairly equivocal press response, has had at least some significant traction with the media and opinion writers. And with the exception of perhaps the Daily Caller (which is quickly growing in popularity and is now widely read...not as much perhaps as Daily Beast, or HuffPost, but it's growing), all of these are major media giving voice to some of these sentiments.
Yes. That much is clear that he was invited in for a discussion. I think what's unclear is what I previoiusly described and what was evidently revealed for the first time yesterday in the USA Today interview, which has a different sense to it than what has previously been revealed in the USADA disposition letter or anything else in any other press releases from USADA or other public statements from Mr. Tygart. And I think a lot of other people also had that same reaction when they read the USA Today interview as well, i.e., that this was something new, something not previously known about USADA's position in this case.
- Mar 11, 2009
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While I believe there are too many LA threads already, I think that's a good idea about the evidence thread.
Meanwhile, I feared that Lance would take his fight to the court of public opinion, and he's done just that. I thought it would work on some, but I didn't realize it would work on as many as it has. There is an alarming amount of dolts out there who choose to remain ignorant on this issue and completely side with Armstrong, almost repeating his exact words. There is also a real lack of critical thinking and analysis in the behavior and words of the media.
Just look at this USA Today article, and especially the comments. This is just one of many, most of the articles/comments I see out there are like this. It's probably 80/20 in his favor. Lance must look at this and think he's won.
What a sad day when something like this happens, a life-long cheater is exposed, and so very many people remain willfully ignorant of the facts and support him anyway.
Meanwhile, I feared that Lance would take his fight to the court of public opinion, and he's done just that. I thought it would work on some, but I didn't realize it would work on as many as it has. There is an alarming amount of dolts out there who choose to remain ignorant on this issue and completely side with Armstrong, almost repeating his exact words. There is also a real lack of critical thinking and analysis in the behavior and words of the media.
Just look at this USA Today article, and especially the comments. This is just one of many, most of the articles/comments I see out there are like this. It's probably 80/20 in his favor. Lance must look at this and think he's won.
What a sad day when something like this happens, a life-long cheater is exposed, and so very many people remain willfully ignorant of the facts and support him anyway.
- Mar 16, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:While I believe there are too many LA threads already, I think that's a good idea about the evidence thread.
Meanwhile, I feared that Lance would take his fight to the court of public opinion, and he's done just that. I thought it would work on some, but I didn't realize it would work on as many as it has. There is an alarming amount of dolts out there who choose to remain ignorant on this issue and completely side with Armstrong, almost repeating his exact words. There is also a real lack of critical thinking and analysis in the behavior and words of the media.
Just look at this USA Today article, and especially the comments. This is just one of many, most of the articles/comments I see out there are like this. It's probably 80/20 in his favor. Lance must look at this and think he's won.
What a sad day when something like this happens, a life-long cheater is exposed, and so very many people remain willfully ignorant of the facts and support him anyway.
oh I'm commenting on usa today article see if you can pick me out then join in the fun
Alpe d'Huez said:While I believe there are too many LA threads already, I think that's a good idea about the evidence thread.
Meanwhile, I feared that Lance would take his fight to the court of public opinion, and he's done just that. I thought it would work on some, but I didn't realize it would work on as many as it has. There is an alarming amount of dolts out there who choose to remain ignorant on this issue and completely side with Armstrong, almost repeating his exact words. There is also a real lack of critical thinking and analysis in the behavior and words of the media.
Just look at this USA Today article, and especially the comments. This is just one of many, most of the articles/comments I see out there are like this. It's probably 80/20 in his favor. Lance must look at this and think he's won.
What a sad day when something like this happens, a life-long cheater is exposed, and so very many people remain willfully ignorant of the facts and support him anyway.
Wow. 80/20 in his favor? I only thought it was about 50/50. But you may be right if one eliminates the multiple repeats of those AP stories that are picked up by most newspapers.
krebs303 said:
Yeah and that's why USADA needs to release more convincing stuff. Armstrong's crew will eventually water down the original stuff. I am sure they have some big guns yet to release so I'll keep waiting.
- May 26, 2010
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QuickStepper said:
you are not fooling anyone.
You are part of the pr spin team Armstrong is trying to put on this using the cancer shield.
No one in the history of sport to date has done what Armstrong has done.
To compare him to any other athlete is a total misnomer.
He doped, he knew in advance when he was going to be tested. He bribed International Federations to bury postive tests, it appears he had rivals taken out with positive tests or Doctors refusing to dope them(Iban Mayo) he had race organisers on his side, he had the press on his side and he used cancer to convince the general public that he wouldn't dope because it would be stupid after cancer. Armstrong is scum.
I am sorry but the clinic is not buying the sorry bunch of BS any of the fanboys are trying to peddle in here. It is over. Theres is nothing positive that anyone can say about this guy.
(Video) http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-25/usada-will-make-right-decision-on-armstrong-doping/4222430
Klaus Mueller, president of Cycling Australia's take on this business.
Have a bucket handy. He starts out sounding supportive then goes downhill immediately, ugh.
Klaus Mueller, president of Cycling Australia's take on this business.
Have a bucket handy. He starts out sounding supportive then goes downhill immediately, ugh.
- Jun 15, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:While I believe there are too many LA threads already, I think that's a good idea about the evidence thread.
Meanwhile, I feared that Lance would take his fight to the court of public opinion, and he's done just that. I thought it would work on some, but I didn't realize it would work on as many as it has. There is an alarming amount of dolts out there who choose to remain ignorant on this issue and completely side with Armstrong, almost repeating his exact words. There is also a real lack of critical thinking and analysis in the behavior and words of the media.
Just look at this USA Today article, and especially the comments. This is just one of many, most of the articles/comments I see out there are like this. It's probably 80/20 in his favor. Lance must look at this and think he's won.
What a sad day when something like this happens, a life-long cheater is exposed, and so very many people remain willfully ignorant of the facts and support him anyway.
Alpe, i think BroDeal is right here. He must have his guys writing all those comments. B/C when i look at this ESPN-Poll, there are 53% of 200.000+ (!) people who believe he doped. You see, he can´t manipulate everybody.
http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/poll/conversation/_/id/145298
Let the companies, who still stand behind him, know about this. And let them know the similarities to Sandusky (no hard evidence, but eye witnesses only). Ask them what they gain if the non believers stop to support them (boycott their products). Ask them what sign they show to kids to if they support a cheater. Ask them what does it tell parents who try to educate their children. Should they raise them by telling lies and cheating is good?
- May 25, 2011
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Alpe d'Huez said:While I believe there are too many LA threads already, I think that's a good idea about the evidence thread.
Meanwhile, I feared that Lance would take his fight to the court of public opinion, and he's done just that. I thought it would work on some, but I didn't realize it would work on as many as it has. There is an alarming amount of dolts out there who choose to remain ignorant on this issue and completely side with Armstrong, almost repeating his exact words. There is also a real lack of critical thinking and analysis in the behavior and words of the media.
Just look at this USA Today article, and especially the comments. This is just one of many, most of the articles/comments I see out there are like this. It's probably 80/20 in his favor. Lance must look at this and think he's won.
What a sad day when something like this happens, a life-long cheater is exposed, and so very many people remain willfully ignorant of the facts and support him anyway.
I don't think it's as many as you think. Armstrong is a notorious astroturfer. Of course there are a few "Polishes" out there, but most people haven't got a clue and they don't care much one way or the other. Remember how many signatures the "Re-open the criminal investigation" petition gathered? Remember how many signatures the "Stop wasting taxpayers' dollars" petition gathered? You know how many signatures a petition called something along the lines of "Please, take petitions seriously" gathered? More than the threshold of 25,000 (and it was ignored, ha ha). In a few weeks Armstrong will have got tired of astroturfing, and all the masses will remember will be the official version, which is Armstrong has lost his seven titles, and that will be the end of it.
My only doubt is: was the criminal investigation dropped due to political pressure or lack of evidence, or was it simply a very clever move so the investigation could be re-opened at a later time and Armstrong could be convicted a lot more easily after he'd lost his American hero status and had been impoverished by civil lawsuits? I hope it's the latter, but we'll just have to wait and see.
Benotti69 said:
Benotti,
Why are you attacking me? I'm just the messenger. I didn't write that stuff in Newsweek or the Washington Post, or the NY Times. I was asked by Dr. Maserati to show some examples. All I did was post links to some of that stuff. I didn't say I agree with any of it, just pointing out, as Alpe d'Huez just did in the post that followed mine, that Lance's PR has actually had some traction in the media and among the populace. I don't know why you can't seem to separate the message from the messenger, but can we leave out the ad hominem attacks? My own sense was that those writing articles that were sympathetic or at least equivocal was only 50/50 to those that were negative about Armstrong. Alpe estimates that he thinks its 80/20 in his favor, and that he must "think he's winning." What should we all do here, pretend those articles sympathetic to LA just don't exist? That would just be playing into exactly what those who are sympathetic want, don't you think?
I'm not arguing against the points you make about why LA should have been sanctioned. I know you don't like me. I know you think I'm an "intern" or an apologist. I also know I will never change your opinion. But really it would be helpful if you were really responding to the substance of the post and not the poster.
- Aug 18, 2012
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Alpe d'Huez said:While I believe there are too many LA threads already, I think that's a good idea about the evidence thread.
Meanwhile, I feared that Lance would take his fight to the court of public opinion, and he's done just that. I thought it would work on some, but I didn't realize it would work on as many as it has. There is an alarming amount of dolts out there who choose to remain ignorant on this issue and completely side with Armstrong, almost repeating his exact words. There is also a real lack of critical thinking and analysis in the behavior and words of the media.
Just look at this USA Today article, and especially the comments. This is just one of many, most of the articles/comments I see out there are like this. It's probably 80/20 in his favor. Lance must look at this and think he's won.
What a sad day when something like this happens, a life-long cheater is exposed, and so very many people remain willfully ignorant of the facts and support him anyway.
Give it time.
I have to think that once the evidence is released in a formal document that all sports writer's will write an article on it being front page of the sport's pages with several quotes about the way he circumvented the procedures.
There'll be something for everyone there to take home, whether it's college jocks going "dude" over the idea or injecting someone else's urine into your bladder/shoving a urine filled condom up your ***, office worker's shocked at people being bought out or people just surprised at the sophistication of the doping programme, it will make interesting reading.
Not to mention, there's scope for Sheryl Crow to earn some coin with a "My traumatic time with Lance" article which a girls mag would probably pay good money for an exclusive.
QuickStepper said:
The general public doesn't post in comment threads. According to Q scores Lance's negatives are 3 times his positives. It's something like 29% negative to 10% with a positive opinion. That's a big decline from a few years ago when it was 50/50 and it's likely to get a lot worse. So the spin is not working.
- Mar 11, 2009
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Or 47% who think he didn't. An alarming number, really.FoxxyBrown1111 said:
While I agree some of the comments sections are filled with some of LA's PR guys, that doesn't excuse the fact that numerous media articles have gone soft on him. A few have been critical and laid out the facts and told the story for what it was. A few. But most have been rather non-committal. Basically stating only surface info. USADA charged him, and LA called it a kangaroo court and witch hunt with no hard evidence, etc. Basically this has been a total lack of critical thinking on the media's part.
thehog
BANNED
- Jul 27, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:While I believe there are too many LA threads already, I think that's a good idea about the evidence thread.
Meanwhile, I feared that Lance would take his fight to the court of public opinion, and he's done just that. I thought it would work on some, but I didn't realize it would work on as many as it has. There is an alarming amount of dolts out there who choose to remain ignorant on this issue and completely side with Armstrong, almost repeating his exact words. There is also a real lack of critical thinking and analysis in the behavior and words of the media.
Just look at this USA Today article, and especially the comments. This is just one of many, most of the articles/comments I see out there are like this. It's probably 80/20 in his favor. Lance must look at this and think he's won.
What a sad day when something like this happens, a life-long cheater is exposed, and so very many people remain willfully ignorant of the facts and support him anyway.
You have to stop reading the comments sections on articles. Adwords, SEO and crop spraying comment sections on stories is in industry in itself. You can get bots at $5 USD an hour to find the articles, comment from script and repeat over and over again.
You don’t think it’s strange that all the comments are the same? And if anyone replies to them that the original person doesn’t reply back? They can’t – they are running from a script. Social analytics is big time. There’s even software which measures the impact a person/company/story is having across the social wire. Its big business and a lot of companies are using it. A lot – trust me. I know it very well.
- Jun 15, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
But Alpe, you know that is US "journalism". Writers who re-vote Brian Cushing as ROY after they knew he doped. HoF voters/writers consider to include McGwire. Writers who still hail Steroid-Rod...
People are dumb, but not that much. Some 50+ % still have a working brain left to think themselves.
Once (and that is the biggest, most important fight coming, which at all costs needs to be won) at least two TdF titles are erased trou CAS, the sponsors will turn away. They can´t sell this §hi.t to people.
All the PR nonsense is unimportant then. It will not matter what fanboys and fan-writers think...
- May 26, 2010
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The UK press have been calling a doper a doper
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...ested-claims-French-anti-doping-official.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...tripped-of-tour-de-france-titles-8079505.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/aug/26/was-lance-armstrong-protected-culture-bullying-secrecy
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...es-after-refusing-to-defend-drug-charges.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ot...e-titles-deciding-contest-doping-charges.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...ested-claims-French-anti-doping-official.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...tripped-of-tour-de-france-titles-8079505.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/aug/26/was-lance-armstrong-protected-culture-bullying-secrecy
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...es-after-refusing-to-defend-drug-charges.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ot...e-titles-deciding-contest-doping-charges.html
Until the evidence comes OUT, Lance has won. Sad to witness the Clinic VIPs living in and displaying the same denial now, as Armstrong and his fans have for decades in terms of doping.
Shape up, guys.
Public opinion has surprised me too, but the "pressure" now needs to be put on USADA.... Let's see your evidence! If you wait too long, the public opinion leaning pro-Lance and 'let sleepings dogs lie' -ish, will freeze and never
Shape up, guys.
Public opinion has surprised me too, but the "pressure" now needs to be put on USADA.... Let's see your evidence! If you wait too long, the public opinion leaning pro-Lance and 'let sleepings dogs lie' -ish, will freeze and never
- May 14, 2010
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Only in the Clinic would people think it's legitimate to compare, in any way, Armstrong and Sandusky, or their respective cases. News flash: THERE IS NO COMPARISON. None. When you mention the cases in the same breath, comparing one to the other, all you do is undermine the credibility of the case you're trying to make, and your own credibility. Stop it.
- Mar 11, 2009
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Thanks Benotti. Good links.
I guess I feel that both USADA needs to be made assured that when it's all said and done the floor is swept clean, and everything is laid out on the table in a clear and concise manner. To avoid metaphors, after all the hearings and CAS rulings are over, they need to make sure that every last bit of evidence is loudly revealed in a way that anyone can understand.
I also believe the media needs to be pressured by knowledgeable people. It's one of the best ways to get some of these jock writers educated. It is true that much of the media is timid, and much of it just repeats press releases.
What we really need is someone like 60 Minutes and Sports Illustrated to do another exposé on this once the evidence is out.
Until there are changes and all is revealed, almost half the people are likely going to still think he was maybe clean, and shafted by the government.
I guess I feel that both USADA needs to be made assured that when it's all said and done the floor is swept clean, and everything is laid out on the table in a clear and concise manner. To avoid metaphors, after all the hearings and CAS rulings are over, they need to make sure that every last bit of evidence is loudly revealed in a way that anyone can understand.
I also believe the media needs to be pressured by knowledgeable people. It's one of the best ways to get some of these jock writers educated. It is true that much of the media is timid, and much of it just repeats press releases.
What we really need is someone like 60 Minutes and Sports Illustrated to do another exposé on this once the evidence is out.
Until there are changes and all is revealed, almost half the people are likely going to still think he was maybe clean, and shafted by the government.
- Jun 15, 2009
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Maxiton said:
Even writers outside the clinic mention it.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/story/2012-08-24/Lance-Armstrong-Livestrong-doping/57292440/1
"It remains to be seen how far he will fall because of the good things he's done, but Nike stuck with Tiger Woods and I think there will be companies that do that with Lance as well," says Dr. Richard Lapchick, the chair and director of the University of Central Florida's DeVos Sports Business Management Program. "I think there are some that will and some that won't. But we're in a whole new era, post-Sandusky, if you will.
"There's a lack of tolerance."
So i don´t know what is your point...
Alpe d'Huez said:
don't you find it a bit hypocritical that cyclingnews publishes a feel good list of quotes about Hincapie (Bauer even saying his 2005 pla d'adet was his career highlight), that CVV and Levi end up 1-2 in USA pro challenge without a mention that both are admitted dopers/witnesses in the Postal case. All ensnared in the Armstrong/Postal conspiracy, all part of a dirty generation of riders.
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