USADA - Armstrong

[TechnicalDescent]

What credibility BPC?
The sport is perceived as having a massive doping problem - and that has been confirmed by those in authority stating the sport is clean only to have a police bust that is outside their control show that they lied and protected those dopers.

By actually tackling the issue and pursuing and punishing those that have doped do you restore some credibility in to the sport.

The sport has gone through a massive transformation in recent years and the cleanest teams are now winning most of the big tours. People who suggested this change was happening a few years ago were laughed at, but now it's accepted wisdom by most anti doping advocates. So this has little to do with cleaning up the sport. I do hope that the people who are passionate about Armstrong get something out of this for themselves, but I can't see any further positive in the wider sense. It's difficult to see how going back and singling people out will be positive. I agree with those on the clean side of the sport that you have to look at the environment of the past, reject that environment and focus on and keeping it clean. They know it would be absurd to take Armstrong's wins away - even people on Garmin privately believe they were legitimate wins IN THE CONTEXT of the environment. But that environment has now gone - that's the point we need to focus on. We don't need to rip everything up to achieve this.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Interesting development. I'm wondering if the USADA really has the authority to prevent Armstrong from competing in Ironman events. I thought they were a private corporation running their own events as basically a gigantic marketing event?

From the Ironman website - they adopted the WADA code
In September of 2009, WTC announced the launch of a new, more comprehensive Anti-Doping Program. This program included the implementation of WADA Code compliant rules, the establishment of a WTC Registered Testing Pool for out-of-competition testing, the development of strict anti-doping requirements for all professional and elite age-group athletes who qualify for a WTC World Championship event and increased WTC- directed and funded in-competition testing at Ironman and Ironman 70.3 events.

It seems rational to doubt, and in fact dismiss, the myth of Armstrong, from the clutches of death to seven time tdf champion, all clean. But then it's equally rational to doubt that a guy could systematically dope for 13 years and not get caught (in the strict sense: failed official test).

I'm looking forward to how this plays out in the courts and whatnot...

I see you say an "official" test.... - why would someone fail an official test when they are paying the official tester?

 

[BroDeal]

I predict he somehow gets off like OJ, but in the end we will catch him in some sleazy hotel room in Las Vegas with a gun an attitude trying to "protect" the value of his signed TdF jerseys.

And I realize this might have been said before, but we may have to dust off some of these from days of yore. Even a cruddy line of: if the cycling glove don't fit, you must acquit!

And seriously, did I just write this? Someone take my keyboard away!

If the hematocrit don't fit, you must acquit.

 

[soverylarry]

pffftt!!!!

Are the pages stuck together yet?

i just spit laughed all over my monitor!

 

[hiero2]

I've never been a fan of Spite and Malice, mewmew, so I will let you guys celebrate this minor "victory" without me. Party on.

ps......SSDD
pss....what a joke

You'll have to clue me in on what SSDD means. Sorry.

Spite and malice - yeah, some. But think of it this way - it is repressed, or not so repressed, anger and hurt over being lied to and not being able to trust any results TODAY because we do not feel we have a real yardstick for what is what YESTERDAY. I will be glad when this case FINALLY gets aired and rolls to an end. I expect that LA will be found guilty, but even if he is NOT, I will feel that we have SOME semblance of truth in packaging.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

That's my point. The flunkies don't care if it comes to nothing. They are not that invested in covering Boss Lance's buttocks.

Look at it this way: You're subpoenaed. You're given immunity. Nothing bad happens to you if you tell the truth. If you lie, you get Tammy Thomased. You get asked a specific question about a certain event on a certain day. Do you lie or do you tell the truth? Remember: You have absolutely no way of knowing what the feds already know!

The choice for the riders was always easy: Their families before Lance--or not.

No I don't think it will have been that easy for them. They may have had their hard feelings against Armstrong, but these are deeply loyal people who acted in a culture that despised people being punished for common preparation techniques in the period we are talking about. Tyler Hamilton described how even across teams, the loyalty and friendship when it came to doping was complete. I think for most of them, how this has panned out is about the worst case scenario.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The sport has gone through a massive transformation in recent years and the cleanest teams are now winning most of the big tours. People who suggested this change was happening a few years ago were laughed at, but now it's accepted wisdom by most anti doping advocates. So this has little to do with cleaning up the sport. I do hope that the people who are passionate about Armstrong get something out of this for themselves, but I can't see any further positive in the wider sense. It's difficult to see how going back and singling people out will be positive. I agree with those on the clean side of the sport that you have to look at the environment of the past, reject that environment and focus on and keeping it clean. They know it would be absurd to take Armstrong's wins away - even people on Garmin privately believe they were legitimate wins IN THE CONTEXT of the environment. But that environment has now gone - that's the point we need to focus on. We don't need to rip everything up to achieve this.

Got a link to the highlighted?

Because I would be pretty certain that many of those Garmin people spoke to USADA as they were encouraged to do and offered information about Armstrongs doping.

PS Where were you with the time to move on la la la when Ullrich got done a few months back?

 

[soverylarry]

Versus picture, Eurosport's free audio stream!

Agreed Zinoviev...perfect combo.

 

[mewmewmew13]

The spite and malice is a constant from the one who is accusing -- trying to pretend it's not by using thinly veiled humour in an attempt to disguise.

I am a citizen that wants to see justice done for those who thought they could buy their way out of any 'rules'.

 

[BroDeal]

The sport has gone through a massive transformation in recent years and the cleanest teams are now winning most of the big tours. People who suggested this change was happening a few years ago were laughed at, but now it's accepted wisdom by most anti doping advocates. So this has little to do with cleaning up the sport. I do hope that the people who are passionate about Armstrong get something out of this for themselves, but I can't see any further positive in the wider sense. It's difficult to see how going back and singling people out will be positive. I agree with those on the clean side of the sport that you have to look at the environment of the past, reject that environment and focus on and keeping it clean. They know it would be absurd to take Armstrong's wins away - even people on Garmin privately believe they were legitimate wins IN THE CONTEXT of the environment. But that environment has now gone - that's the point we need to focus on. We don't need to rip everything up to achieve this.

LOL. BPC has moved on. He now thinks that it would be better for the sport if we let sleeping dogs lie. What a big surpise that the troll who spent years defending this scumbag now thinks he should get away with it. He even brings up the poor clean riders today who will be hurt by Armstrong finally getting his due. You did not have any thought for those clean riders when you were making excuses for Armstrong's fraud. The actions of people like you were a giant FU to every rider who did not want to dope or was cheated out of his career. So don't give us a sob story about the clean riders you care so much about.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

Got a link to the highlighted?

The quote is in the Vandevelde thread.

Garmin Director Johnny Weltz made the following statements when the investigation into Armstrong was dropped:

"You can always bring questions up for everything. We are used to that in our world. You suspect someone if they do well," Weltz said.

"You can't go further when you have a federal investigation for two years and they don't nail him. You have to let the guy go," he said. "He was acting properly in (the) same environment as
everyone else. He won his victories in a credible way."

Vaughter's slapped him down apparently, but I think that's how people even working on the clean side of cycling will tend to feel about ripping up the Armstrong wins. There was an enviroment at the time that needed to change. Changing the enviroment has now happened and is what's important. If you're interested in the sport, a vendetta against Armstrong is unhelpful and misses the point.

PS Where were you with the time to move on la la la when Ullrich got done a few months back?

Ullrich is a good case in point. His health suffered terribly and he went through a huge amount of stress. But even he was only given a ban and all of his podiums in the tour were not taken away. What is happening to Armstrong is just going to make people's heads explode. It's going to be terrible in my view, even if some people like yourself get something out of it.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

LOL. BPC has moved on. He now thinks that it would be better for the sport if we let sleeping dogs lie. What a big surpise that the troll who spent years defending this scumbag now thinks he should get away with it. He even brings up the poor clean riders today who will be hurt by Armstrong finally getting his due. You did not have any thought for those clean riders when you were making excuses for Armstrong's fraud. The actions of people like you were a giant FU to every rider who did not want to dope or was cheated out of his career. So don't give us a sob story about the clean riders you care so much about.

I'm not quite sure if you're refering to me, but my views haven't changed on this matter at all. Given that you were trolling Vaughter's by claiming he is lying and all his riders are dopers, I don't think you have a lot of crediblity. As I said on the other thread, you and Armstrong have an alliance in both hating the clean riders more than the dopers. You see it as your job, or passtime, to smear the very people who have changed the sport, then claim you want the sport to change. There isn't much point in engaging someone like yourself.

 

[hrotha]

Whoa, I wasn't expecting this.

Always nice to see Armstrong take a hit (let's hope this is it), but I'm even happier about seeing Bruyneel, Ferrari, Celaya and Del Moral in there.

 

[BroDeal]

What is happening to Armstrong is just going to make people's heads explode. It's going to be terrible in my view, even if some people like yourself get something out of it.

No, it's going to make the heads of trolls like you explode. The rest of us are happy to see justice finally done.

Forcing the sport to face its past is the best thing that could happen.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The quote is in the Vandevelde thread.



Vaughter's slapped him down apparently, but I think that's how people even working on the clean side of cycling will tend to feel about ripping up the Armstrong wins. There was an enviroment at the time that needed to change. Changing the enviroment has now happened and is what's important. If you're interested in the sport, a vendetta against Armstrong is unhelpful and misses the point.

Johnny Weltz - you mean Lances old DS in USPS?

This environment you are on about - would it be the outrageous doping going on say 16 years that included some people paying off the UCI?

Ullrich is a good case in point. His health suffered terribly and he went through a huge amount of stress. But even he was only given a ban and all of his podiums in the tour were not taken away. What is happening to Armstrong is just going to make people's heads explode. It's going to be terrible in my view, even if some people like yourself get something out of it.

When you say "people like yourself" - you mean people who have been involved in cycling for most of our lives, then yes we finally get rid of the frauds.

But "your view" is only about saving Lance.

 

[BroDeal]

I'm not quite sure if you're refering to me, but my views haven't changed on this matter at all. Given that you were trolling Vaughter's by claiming he is lying and all his riders are dopers, I don't think you have a lot of crediblity. As I said on the other thread, you and Armstrong have an alliance in both hating the clean riders more than the dopers. You see it as your job, or passtime, to smear the very people who have changed the sport, then claim you want the sport to change. There isn't much point in engaging someone like yourself.

You know exactlly who I am referring to. You latest sock puppet is not fooling anyone. We all know you are BPC.

Nothing I wrote about Vaughters is untrue. He has a history of avoiding the truth. He won't talk straight to the public about his past. He told Landis not to name names. That makes him a man who is hard to trust.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

Johnny Weltz - you mean Lances old DS in USPS?

Who now works for Garmin, yes. Hence what I said. Jonathan Vaughter's rode for Armstrong.

This environment you are on about - would it be the outrageous doping going on say 16 years that included some people paying off the UCI?

There may have been some corruption, but the doping practises were standard of the era. That's why Tyler and Landis have said. There were no secrets in this regard. Yes it was an outrageous enviroment that needed to be changed. It has changed. Unless you have a personal grudge against a rider, it doesn't make a lot of sense to go back and start tearing the results up from 15 years ago. As I say, even Garmin aren't really going to want that.

When you say "people like yourself" - you mean people who have been involved in cycling for most of our lives, then yes we finally get rid of the frauds. But "your view" is only about saving Lance.

That's an assertion of bad faith. Why would I waste my time championing the clean riders and teams in threads like Vandevelde thread, defeading Vaughters from trolls who think it's their job to pretend he runs a dirty team, if I wasn't keen on changing the enviroment? I honestly do hope you get something out of this, but I think that's the only positive here.

Who do you think Armstrong's results should be given to?

 

[TechnicalDescent]

To me, if they are to be morally consistent, it should be a case of writing off the last couple of hundreds years, or be content with changing the enviroment and getting behind the clean teams and riders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling

Anyway, that's the last of me on this today.

 

[henryg]

Crazy and scandalous decision. Hope Lance bring a suit against USADA for libel, and make some money and bring legal actions on them.

He is going to have to sue all his former teammates as well. Hincapie and all the rest spilled the beans under oath. I guess they are all liars -only Lance is telling the truth.

 

[akrogirl]

and what about all the good little girls and boys with cancer?

This good little girl with cancer will be thrilled if they are finally able to bring Lance down

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Who now works for Garmin, yes. Hence what I said. Jonathan Vaughter's rode for Armstrong.



There may have been some corruption, but the doping practises were standard of the era. That's why Tyler and Landis have said. There were no secrets in this regard. Yes it was an outrageous enviroment that needed to be changed. It has changed. Unless you have a personal grudge against a rider, it doesn't make a lot of sense to go back and start tearing the results up from 15 years ago. As I say, even Garmin aren't really going to want that.

And who made them "standard"?
Guys like the doping Doctor Ferrari and guys who doped and paid off people like Armstrong did.

That's an assertion of bad faith. Why would I waste my time championing the clean riders and teams in threads like Vandevelde thread, defeading Vaughters from trolls who think it's their job to pretend he runs a dirty team, if I wasn't keen on changing the enviroment? I honestly do hope you get something out of this, but I think that's the only positive here.

A better question would be why waste your time championing the clean riders and teams in threads like Vandevelde thread, and then when the biggest cheat is exposed let him go.
But I already know the answer.

Who do you think Armstrong's results should be given to?

No-one.

 

[richwagmn]

He is going to have to sue all his former teammates as well. Hincapie and all the rest spilled the beans under oath. I guess they are all liars -only Lance is telling the truth.

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.

I'm guessing Hincapie isn't returning any calls from Austin, TX. I wonder who else talked? Levi? Vaughters?

 

[Steel4Ever]

Not sure if this reply was posted already but...

YEEEESSSSSSSSSS!




What can I say, I'm easily amused!

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Twitter, the other white meat:

Sarcastic Tom ‏@sarcastitom

For all the clueless people defending Lance because he never tested positive, let me clarify what happened today: he tested positive.

 

[Eusebio Kino]

That's my point. The flunkies don't care if it comes to nothing. They are not that invested in covering Boss Lance's buttocks.

Look at it this way: You're subpoenaed. You're given immunity. Nothing bad happens to you if you tell the truth. If you lie, you get Tammy Thomased. You get asked a specific question about a certain event on a certain day. Do you lie or do you tell the truth? Remember: You have absolutely no way of knowing what the feds already know!

The choice for the riders was always easy: Their families before Lance--or not.

The answer is don't cheat, and if your boss cheats,(assuming Lances' former team mates, you either quit, or turn the lying scumbag in and sue him.(Lance.) Now it comes to the point where, what is it 10 of Lances' doping cronies finger Lance themselves? Sorry, those lying, (although not under oath,) are rats, fleeing a sinking ship after they have fed on the same detritus Armstrong did.(Assuming Armstrong did dope.) The holier than though BS of the co cheaters,(not naming names here,) is disgusting and filthy. The co-cheaters are just as dirty, and confessing to save their filthy selves does not make them saints. Not naming names here, they(the co-conspirators, will sleep in their own filthy bed forever.