USADA - Armstrong

[The Joker]

Alford plea, anyone? "Everyone knows I never tested positive, but I agreed to this to avoid millions of dollars in court costs and the decision of a biassed panel."

Agree with this, but he could also throw in "Another factor in my decision to plead guilty has been my desire to save the beautiful sport of cycling, which I love, from any further pain and suffering. The dark cloud of doping has hung over the beautiful sport of cycling for too long. Hopefully, now, with my guilty plea and this matter finally coming to an end, this cloud will evaporate."

I think that USADA has a show that it wants the world to see.

But isn't this the advantage of pleading guilty at this stage, it would deny USADA the chance to make a show of the evidence. There would be no hearing (public or private), no evidence would be given, no witnesses would be called, USADA would just announce its sanction.

Moreover, if Lance pleads guilty, he can still proclaim his innocence i.e. an Alford plea. If he can spin a good enough story, he can probably even keep his loyal fans and sponsors happy too.

 

[MarkvW]

Agree with this, but he could also throw in "Another factor in my decision to plead guilty has been my desire to save the beautiful sport of cycling, which I love, from any further pain and suffering. The dark cloud of doping has hung over the beautiful sport of cycling for too long. Hopefully, now, with my guilty plea and this matter finally coming to an end, this cloud will evaporate."



But isn't this the advantage of pleading guilty at this stage, it would deny USADA the chance to make a show of the evidence. There would be no hearing (public or private), no evidence would be given, no witnesses would be called, USADA would just announce its sanction.

Moreover, if Lance pleads guilty, he can still proclaim his innocence i.e. an Alford plea. If he can spin a good enough story, he can probably even keep his loyal fans and sponsors happy too.

I think there is a strong likelihood that your prediction will be borne out. If he's coldly rational, then he should realize that he cannot allow himself to testify. But Lance may be going full *** now and letting his lawyers drive the process (I sure hope so!!).

 

[MarkvW]

Erm, hate to break to this to you, but all the greats, including Merckx, tested positive.

Lemond? Hinault? You are making stuff up.

 

[rhubroma]

I note Merckx weighed in yesterday:



http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/merckx-evans-wiggins-and-nibali-favourites-for-tour-de-france

Why is Merckx allowed to comment on these things given he doped? Shouldn't cycling disown him from anything to do with the sport and strip his wins away?

Merckx is a giant hypocrite. All he does is complain about how cycling is being "persecuted" and never wants to look at a colossal problem within the environment to which he himself contributed.

It's the same old omertà that eventually begot Armstrong.

His pathetic line of argument has always been that they're "taking things too far" and that cycling is "doing more than any other sport." Ergo, it should just be left alone. Too far? What does that mean? Too far. When the peloton is still doped to its gills. Is not the purpose of anti-doping to bring the dopers to task? How then is sanctioning Armstrong taking things too far?

Guys like Merckx have always been the cancer of a sport that simply doesn't want to publicly face the many skeletons in its closet. But the problem is that it is corrupt from within, manages its own anti-doping from within and continues to rely upon guys like the Cannibal to sell the image of itself.

Merckx is the classic example of a guy who should be told by his peers, or the new generation or the local boy scouts to just be quite, to stop making comments, to shut up. Since our ears and brains can’t support any long such inanities.

 

[MarkvW]

Merckx is a giant hypocrite. All he does is complain about how cycling is being "persecuted" and never wants to look at a colossal problem within the environment to which he himself contributed.

It's the same old omertà that eventually begot Armstrong.

His pathetic line of argument has always been that they're "taking things too far" and that cycling is "doing more than any other sport." Ergo, it should just be left alone. Too far? What does that mean? Too far. When the peloton is still doped to its gills. Is not the purpose of anti-doping to bring the dopers to task? How then is sanctioning Armstrong taking things too far?

Guys like Merckx have always been the cancer of a sport that simply doesn't want to publicly face the many skeletons in its closet. But the problem is that it is corrupt from within, manages its own anti-doping from within and continues to rely upon guys like the Cannibal to sell the image of itself.

Merckx is the classic example of a guy who should be told by his peers, or the new generation or the local boy scouts to just be quite, to stop making comments, to shut up. Since our ears and brains can’t support any long such inanities.

Merckx sells racing bikes. That explains it well enough for me.

 

[frenchfry]

well- this is where everybody is asking-where is Fabiani? - looks like he ain't part of the defense team anymore- so that says right away that cash is tight- & if the "political Influence" was still on LA's side- this matter should've been wrapped up along with the Federal Investigation- unless of course he thought the USADA was going to back off when the Judge dropped the case and they wouldn't bother at all ......

Fabiani bought influence with Birotte through his connections. He has no influence with USADA so deemed unnecessary.

If Armstrong gets out of this, it will be by buying influence and smearing the participants. His actions against a member of the review board are an indication - you can bet he has teams of investigators turning over gagbage cans to come up with dirt on anyone who might speak against him or rule on his case.

Scorched earth strategy, the only way he knows to operate. It isn't going to be pretty, but it is likely to backfire as his true character will be exposed so only the most zealous fans will follow.

 

[frenchfry]

"We are concerned about the integrity and oversight of this proceeding and hope that Lance will be given the opportunity he deserves to assert his innocence.

"As a 501(c)3 non-profit organization which prizes transparency and the highest standards of governance, we struggle to understand the leadership choices and apparent lack of openness by another non-profit, funded predominantly by the federal government with U.S. tax dollars.

"The Foundation will remain 100 percent focused on serving the financial, physical and practical needs of cancer survivors, especially in underserved communities throughout the U.S., as we always have."


- can they say this sort of ***?

Of course Ulman is communicating on the talking points designed to seed a doubt as to the legitimacy of the process. Of course what he fails to mention is that the arbitration hearing can be open to the public at Armstrong's request and therefore all the truth (including Armstrong's) can be totally transparent. It will be interesting to see what excuse Armstrong will come up with for not requesting an open hearing after all this communication on transparency.

 

[Je ne sais quoi]

What's the status of Bruyneel et al?

 

[HL2037]

Agree with this, but he could also throw in "Another factor in my decision to plead guilty has been my desire to save the beautiful sport of cycling, which I love, from any further pain and suffering. The dark cloud of doping has hung over the beautiful sport of cycling for too long. Hopefully, now, with my guilty plea and this matter finally coming to an end, this cloud will evaporate."
...
Moreover, if Lance pleads guilty, he can still proclaim his innocence i.e. an Alford plea. If he can spin a good enough story, he can probably even keep his loyal fans and sponsors happy too.

Ah, the Agnus Dei strategy - it has worked before

Tygart in the role of Pontius Pilatus and perhaps Bruyneel as Judas?

 

[Race Radio]

I doubt there will be some form of settlement. There is little difference in the public eye in Lance getting stripped of 1-2 or all 7. That he willing to give up 2005 shows how desperate he is.

I am surprised that we are well into this thing and he has yet to give a defense that makes any tactical sense. The "USADA is a state actor" idea has failed multiple times, not just against USADA but also when it was tried against USATF and IAAF.

Only a small fraction of the evidence has been presented. USADA intentionally only presented evidence that was largely already in the public domain. There is much, much more

The best he has offered is one of the panel is a perv. This is desperation

 

[Race Radio]

sources tell ABC News that USADA officials have reason to believe that Armstrong and his team have hired private investigators to follow them. Armstrong's team has not responded to a request for comment on the allegation.

The same official points to the smearing of the board member as an example of the sort of intimidation they fear Armstrong will use against witnesses and investigators. USADA officials say this is the very reason their list of witnesses against Armstrong has not been made public.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/lance-arms...al-proceedings/story?id=16682619#.T-7Qa7We6f8

Would not be the first time

 

[joe_papp]

...isn't this the advantage of pleading guilty at this stage, it would deny USADA the chance to make a show of the evidence. There would be no hearing (public or private), no evidence would be given, no witnesses would be called, USADA would just announce its sanction.

Moreover, if Lance pleads guilty, he can still proclaim his innocence i.e. an Alford plea. If he can spin a good enough story, he can probably even keep his loyal fans and sponsors happy too.

There would still be nothing to stop USADA from releasing their entire case into the public domain once a decision was reached (even if by default or Armstrong acknowledges his guilt). USADA can write whatever they want into whatever kind of document packet that they wanted to release to ensure the magnitude of the conspiracy and its details were known.

If it goes to arbitration, well, even then parts of the evidence will certainly end-up being discussed in whatever written decision(s) are submitted by the arbiters.

USADA isn't going to comment publicly on the specific case before it's resolved, and they're not going to selectively leak pieces of evidence (after all, it was Lance himself who got the ball rolling by trying to use the Washington Post to sway the public in his favor), but I have no doubt that the entire transcript for any eventual arbitration would be available, eventually, at least.

My point is that no matter what Lance does, the details will still reach the public.

 

[The Joker]

There would still be nothing to stop USADA from releasing their entire case into the public domain once a decision was reached (even if by default or Armstrong acknowledges his guilt). USADA can write whatever they want into whatever kind of document packet that they wanted to release to ensure the magnitude of the conspiracy and its details were known.

Fair enough - but if Lance pleads guilty and holds a big press conference to announce this, for most people, they are going to stop paying any attention (assuming outside of cycling fans anyone is paying close attention now).

In my opinion, very few members of the general public will pay attention to the written judgment of USADA announcing sanctions, or to any information that might leak out. They will care about the sanction, ie does he lose 1 title, 2 titles, 7 titles, but they wont care about the reasons.

Also, Lance must know what most of the damaging evidence against him is (despite his whinges that he hasnt been told what it is), it would be pretty easy to touch on those things at a "I Plead Guilty press conference", and put his spin on it - ie get in first. Whether we like it or not, if he did this, many people will only ever remember Lance's spinned version of events from the press conference.

Just my opinion...

 

[patricknd]

Fair enough - but if Lance pleads guilty and holds a big press conference to announce this, for most people, they are going to stop paying any attention (assuming outside of cycling fans anyone is paying close attention now).

In my opinion, very few members of the general public will pay attention to the written judgment of USADA announcing sanctions, or to any information that might leak out. They will care about the sanction, ie does he lose 1 title, 2 titles, 7 titles, but they wont care about the reasons.

Also, Lance must know what most of the damaging evidence against him is (despite his whinges that he hasnt been told what it is), it would be pretty easy to touch on those things at a "I Plead Guilty press conference", and put his spin on it - ie get in first. Whether we like it or not, if he did this, many people will only ever remember Lance's spinned version of events from the press conference.

Just my opinion...

What's a whinge?

 

[The Joker]

What's a whinge?

Sorry - its another word for complaint or whine. It is widely used here in Australia... actually just checked dictionary.com, apparently its a slang term only used in Australia and the UK (proof that you learn something new everyday )

 

[ManInFull]

Merckx sells racing bikes. That explains it well enough for me.

That's really the bottom line. Very few are going to bite the hand that feeds them.

 

[veganrob]

Fair enough - but if Lance pleads guilty and holds a big press conference to announce this, for most people, they are going to stop paying any attention (assuming outside of cycling fans anyone is paying close attention now).

In my opinion, very few members of the general public will pay attention to the written judgment of USADA announcing sanctions, or to any information that might leak out. They will care about the sanction, ie does he lose 1 title, 2 titles, 7 titles, but they wont care about the reasons.

Also, Lance must know what most of the damaging evidence against him is (despite his whinges that he hasnt been told what it is), it would be pretty easy to touch on those things at a "I Plead Guilty press conference", and put his spin on it - ie get in first. Whether we like it or not, if he did this, many people will only ever remember Lance's spinned version of events from the press conference.

Just my opinion...

Well that really is the best case scenario for Lance. And like you say, will John Q Public care all the much. Probably not. Most of them surely believe he was all doped up or don't care about him or cycling. I'm talking about USA here.
Others like us in the true cycling community want to see penalties and justice for the several other reasons we are talking about.

 

[patricknd]

Sorry - its another word for complaint or whine. It is widely used here in Australia... actually just checked dictionary.com, apparently its a slang term only used in Australia and the UK (proof that you learn something new everyday )

i wondered because i've seen it too many times for it to be a typo.

 

[thehog]

Well that really is the best case scenario for Lance. And like you say, will John Q Public care all the much. Probably not. Most of them surely believe he was all doped up or don't care about him or cycling. I'm talking about USA here.
Others like us in the true cycling community want to see penalties and justice for the several other reasons we are talking about.

It's going to stick real hard losing 7 titles and being banned from the sport for life. That would be the biggest punishment in the history of cycling.

It would mean he can't weed his way into cycling or Tri. He'll be gone and forgotten for life. He can appeal to his supporters but not much he'll be able to do apart from joining the Masters Circuit of some kind outside of international sports ruling.

What will he do? I think it's an excellent message to send to cyclists of today and to the UCI. If you want to dope and collude victories then you may well get away with it today but maybe not tomorrow.

 

[MarkvW]

Fabiani bought influence with Birotte through his connections. He has no influence with USADA so deemed unnecessary.

If Armstrong gets out of this, it will be by buying influence and smearing the participants. His actions against a member of the review board are an indication - you can bet he has teams of investigators turning over gagbage cans to come up with dirt on anyone who might speak against him or rule on his case.

Scorched earth strategy, the only way he knows to operate. It isn't going to be pretty, but it is likely to backfire as his true character will be exposed so only the most zealous fans will follow.

There is no good reason to think that Armstrong's actions caused the termination of Birotte's investigation. There are all sorts of reasons that the investigation could have terminated without Armstrong or his minions playing a role.

Don't overstate Armstrong's pull.

 

[MarkvW]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/lance-arms...y-starts-formal-proceedings/story?id=16682619

Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war!

Armstrong's private investigators are not being discreet.
He is spending mega-money. If Floyd went full ***, Lance has gone thermonuclear ***!

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

That is just ugly. I now stand by what I said, Lance will fight this to the bloody end, and a scorched earth tactic will be part of it, and much of his arguing will be in the court of public opinion. He'll do everything he can to make the general public see:

Lance the cancer surviving hero vs. The sinister US Government USADA wasting your tax dollars.

 

[thehog]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/lance-arms...y-starts-formal-proceedings/story?id=16682619

Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war!

Armstrong's private investigators are not being discreet.
He is spending mega-money. If Floyd went full ***, Lance has gone thermonuclear ***!

I noted.

Today on EuroSport English I noted a slip.

They were talking about skinsuit technology. Harmon mentioned Armstrong was always into tech in regards to skin suits. Kirby jumped and said "Are we going to talk about the cloud?" Harmon then quickly corrected himself "oh that cloud, I've been instructed not to talk about it" then moved onto another topic.

Money is spent all over the place and sounds like the commentators have either been paid off, warned by the UCI not to speak about it, or worried about dirt being spread by Magnum PI.

 

[Race Radio]

I noted.

Today on EuroSport English I noted a slip.

They were talking about skinsuit technology. Harmon mentioned Armstrong was always into tech in regards to skin suits. Kirby jumped and said "Are we going to talk about the cloud?" Harmon then quickly corrected himself "oh that cloud, I've been instructed not to talk about it" then moved onto another topic.

Money is spent all over the place and sounds like the commentators have either been paid off, warned by the UCI not to speak about it, or worried about dirt being spread by Magnum PI.

I did not hear it like that.

When Carlton slipped and mentioned Lance's Skinsuit Harmon said "That's it, now you have gone and mentioned that name" Carlton's response was to dismissively call Lance "That cloud".

The way I heard it was they did not want to talk about Lance because he was toxic. Most see that distancing themselves from the toxic element that is Lance is a smart thing.

 

[thehog]

I did not hear it like that.

When Carlton slipped and mentioned Lance's Skinsuit Harmon said "That's it, now you have gone and mentioned that name" Carlton's response was to dismissively call Lance "That cloud".

The way I heard it was they did not want to talk about Lance because he was toxic. Most see that distancing themselves from the toxic element that is Lance is a smart thing.

Cheers. I must admit I was competing with a vacuum cleaner around my feet when watching!