USADA - Armstrong

[Cal_Joe]

Geez, that's new. Wonder if he'd really try that.

As one of the few posters here who has a little bit of face time with LA )), I have to ask - would it surprise you?

 

[TechnicalDescent]

The stakes couldn't be higher. Even setting aside the spectre of the USADA's demise, just allowing Armstrong to maintain that he never doped is damaging in and of itself. It sends the message that doping really isn't a problem because, even if all the top competetors are doping, it's still possible to dominate the sport through a combination of hard work, raw talent, grit, superior tactics, etc. Just like Lance did. Tough doping controls aren't necessary to give the honest riders a shot. They'll win regardless.

This "sending a message" theory. Do you really believe that? Do you really think today's pros are waiting on news from this USADA case to decide whether they're going to dope or not? Do you think Garmin and sky are hovering over the doping doctor's phone number waiting on the outcome? I wish people would stop pretending this was anything to do with helping the sport. Just ask Joe Papp if any of his orders dried up after he helped get Landis win taken away. People make judgments on the situation today, not what happened to someone in the past. And thankfully the judgment of the top rider has taken a great leap forward, before this case happened. Look who won the tour last year.

 

[TexPat]

As one of the few posters here who has a little bit of face time with LA )), I have to ask - would it surprise you?

Sadly, nothing surprises me anymore. The wealthy and powerful in the US and other uncivilised places have an uncanny ability to weisel out of judicial tight spots.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

I note Merckx weighed in yesterday:

Merckx was also questioned as to his view on the investigation launched by American Anti-Doping Agency USADA into alleged former doping practices by Lance Armstrong and Johan Bruyneel. The 67-year-old is known to have a good relationship with both, stating, "This case is going a bit far. It's excessive. That it's opened after a federal investigation commission already closed the case, seems too much to me."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/merckx-evans-wiggins-and-nibali-favourites-for-tour-de-france

Why is Merckx allowed to comment on these things given he doped? Shouldn't cycling disown him from anything to do with the sport and strip his wins away?

 

[hfer07]

His only hope is having the goods on someone bigger than himself who can influence the arbitrators. I don't see it happening but then again the criminal case was dropped without too much problem.

well- this is where everybody is asking-where is Fabiani? - looks like he ain't part of the defense team anymore- so that says right away that cash is tight- & if the "political Influence" was still on LA's side- this matter should've been wrapped up along with the Federal Investigation- unless of course he thought the USADA was going to back off when the Judge dropped the case and they wouldn't bother at all ......

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I note Merkz weighed in yesterday:



http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/merckx-evans-wiggins-and-nibali-favourites-for-tour-de-france

Why is Merckx allowed to comment on these things given he doped? Shouldn't cycling disown him from anything to do with the sport and strip his wins away?

No, everyone is free to comment. The point is, who cares what he has to say about it anyway?

 

[Cal_Joe]

Sadly, nothing surprises me anymore. The wealthy and powerful in the US and other uncivilised places have an uncanny ability to weisel out of judicial tight spots.

I saw what you did there. Good one.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

No, everyone is free to comment. The point is, who cares what he has to say about it anyway?

Cycling does. He's an icon of the sport, a bit like Lance Armstrong.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Cycling does. He's an icon of the sport, a bit like Lance Armstrong.

Nobody does. Everyone knows it is a doper defending a doper. BFD SSDD...SS...DD.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

Once again... the time honored of pro cycling shooting itself in the foot .

On the eve of the TDF .... headlines are made ... not by the race ... but of someone(USADA) who wants to feed off the spotlight. It's rather sad , yet comical at the same time

I think we will still be talking about this at the start of next year's tour de france, unfortunately. The irritation of people in the sport is palpable.

 

[MarkvW]

The "excessive" part of Merckx' comment is interesting. Dovetails with Lance's earlier statement that he was prepared to part with two Tour wins.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

The "excessive" part of Merckx' comment is interesting. Dovetails with Lance's earlier statement that he was prepared to part with two Tour wins.

I don't think he was politically calculating his words to that extent. But yeah, everyone's walking around with their jaws on the floor at the idea they could well take away all of the wins. It's like people are in charge of USADA who only follow twitter or something and don't even care about the sport. Are they from mars? We could end up with the absurd situation where all the greats of the sport recognize Armstrong to be the greatest tour champion, yet he has no official wins! How bonkers will that be?

Looks like years of destruction and divisiveness for the sport lay ahead, just at the very moment the sport had cleaned up it's act! What a crazy world. We're always fighting the last war.

 

[D-Queued]

He said: "I don't discriminate - on anything. I like women who are hotter than doughnut grease."

subtext: Who look like my mom.

Exactly.

Lance doesn't appear to realize that if it is hot to the touch, it is probably infected.

Dave.

 

[Random Direction]

I think we will still be talking about this at the start of next year's tour de france, unfortunately. The irritation of people in the sport is palpable.

The irritation in the triathlon community of having to deal with a poseur like Lance is also palpable. He is driving a lot of people away - must be bad for the private equity trying to leverage his presence.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

The irritation in the triathlon community of having to deal with a poseur like Lance is also palpable. He is driving a lot of people away - must be bad for the private equity trying to leverage his presence.

He seemed to fit in with the triathlon community quite well actually.

 

[Jeremiah]

I don't think he was politically calculating his words to that extent. But yeah, everyone's walking around with their jaws on the floor at the idea they could well take away all of the wins. It's like people are in charge of USADA who only follow twitter or something and don't even care about the sport. Are they from mars? We could end up with the absurd situation where all the greats of the sport recognize Armstrong to be the greatest tour champion, yet he has no official wins! How bonkers will that be?

Looks like years of destruction and divisiveness for the sport lay ahead, just at the very moment the sport had cleaned up it's act! What a crazy world. We're always fighting the last war.

Funny, like everybody doesn't know he's been jacked his entire career..

If the greats were smart they'd stop defending Armstrong which only brings their legacies into question.

The war was never over btw.

More comedy from Luskin.

"It is the entirely predictable product of USADA's toxic obsession with Lance Armstrong and a process in which truth is not a priority," Luskin said. "There is not one shred of credible evidence to support USADA's charges and an unbroken record of more than 500 clean tests over more than a decade and a half to refute it."

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/more/news/20120629/armstrong-doping-case/#ixzz1zFKWPPeu

 

[TechnicalDescent]

Funny, like everybody doesn't know he's been jacked his entire career..

If the greats were smart they'd stop defending Armstrong which only brings their legacies into question.

The war was never over btw.

Erm, hate to break to this to you, but all the greats, including Merckx, tested positive.

 

[Jeremiah]

Erm, hate to break to this to you, but all the greats, including Merckx, tested positive.

Erm, I know, that is why doper Merckx should STFU with his defense of Armstrong. You know, birds of a feather.

Merckx actually was the real deal who supplemented his talent.

Armstrong, just a donkey.

Again, if Merckx wants to tarnish his legacy with comparisons to donkey Pharmstrong, hey, don't let me stop Eddy!

 

[Merckx index]

I continue to believe some people are overestimating LA’s extracurricular options. If he wants to avoid losing his titles and remaining suspended, he has to have a hearing. I just don’t buy that it can be blocked. This is not a government investigation or a criminal matter. That means USADA is limited in its sanctions, but it also means that it will be virtually impossible for LA or anyone else to stop it. Another very important factor in USADA’s favor is that this is all about past activity. The decision is not keeping LA out of the TDF, the Olympics, or some other current competition where lots of money is at stake. Whether he keeps his TDF titles or not, whether he can compete in Ironmans or not, matters very little to most people at this point.

His sponsors will be hurt, but they all understand this happens a lot with sports figures. The LAF will be hurt, but I guess will stay with him to the end. Ironman will be hurt, but they may change their rules so he can compete next year.

Legally, as I suggested earlier, his only possibility is to argue that USADA is a state actor, but a court case has already ruled that it isn’t. Maybe he could delay the hearing by resuscitating that argument in some court, but that just means extending the period of time in which he can’t compete in Ironmans. I think USADA has him by the balls with that suspension. It’s a way of forcing him not to delay things, to step up to the plate. I think he might be open to a deal, lose two titles and have the suspension ended or at least shortened. Given the uncertainties in the SOL argument, the paucity of hard physical evidence of doping, and the unprecedented idea of stripping an athlete of virtually a lifetime of results, USADA might be happy to take this deal. If the two sides agreed to that, I’m sure it could be worded in a way to minimize LA’s bad PR.

Alford plea, anyone? "Everyone knows I never tested positive, but I agreed to this to avoid millions of dollars in court costs and the decision of a biassed panel."

 

[MarkvW]

I continue to believe some people are overestimating LA’s extracurricular options. If he wants to avoid losing his titles and remaining suspended, he has to have a hearing. I just don’t buy that it can be blocked. This is not a government investigation or a criminal matter. That means USADA is limited in its sanctions, but it also means that it will be virtually impossible for LA or anyone else to stop it. Another very important factor in USADA’s favor is that this is all about past activity. The decision is not keeping LA out of the TDF, the Olympics, or some other current competition where lots of money is at stake. Whether he keeps his TDF titles or not, whether he can compete in Ironmans or not, matters very little to most people at this point.

IOW, there isn’t the incentive that you would need in addition to money to make it worthwhile for anyone who could possibly block this illegally to act. It just isn’t that important. His sponsors will be hurt, but they all understand this happens a lot with sports figures. The LAF will be hurt, but I guess will stay with him to the end. Ironman will be hurt, but they may change their rules so he can compete next year.

Legally, as I suggested earlier, his only possibility is to argue that USADA is a state actor, but a court case has already ruled that it isn’t. Maybe he could delay the hearing by resuscitating that argument in some court, but that just means extending the period of time in which he can’t compete in Ironmans. I think USADA has him by the balls with that suspension. It’s a way of forcing him not to delay things, to step up to the plate. I think he might be open to a deal, lose two titles and have the suspension ended or at least shortened. Given the uncertainties in the SOL argument, the paucity of hard physical evidence of doping, and the unprecedented idea of stripping an athlete of virtually a lifetime of results, USADA might be happy to take this deal. If the two sides agreed to that, I’m sure it could be worded in a way to minimize LA’s bad PR.

Another vital point is that Armstrong would have to go all the way through the USADA process before he could successfully challenge USADA's actions in federal court. By then most of the damage would have been done.

 

[Random Direction]

He seemed to fit in with the triathlon community quite well actually.

Parts of it, perhaps. But definitely not other parts of it. There is an element of pretentiousness that he fits with, but not the 2/3 that are down home good people.

 

[D-Queued]

....

More comedy from Luskin.

... "There is not one shred of credible evidence to support USADA's charges and an unbroken record of more than 500 clean tests over more than a decade and a half to refute it."

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/more/news/20120629/armstrong-doping-case/#ixzz1zFKWPPeu

This argument is so specious it is hilarious.

Criminals get away with it. The more sophisticated they are, the more they get away with.

Setting aside the ludicrous math (500 tests??? I'm from Missouri), perhaps Luskin can explain how any criminal could ever rob a bank with armed gaurds and security cameras, let alone a prisoner escape from a Maximum Security Penitentiary. Like, that doesn't happen?

Coming up with a faked TUE when you test positive for Cortizone isn't anywhere near that hard.

You don't need to be Houdini or Einstein to hide positive results, get advanced warning from the chaperones, have a 20 min shower, or run off when they visit you in Tejas for an OOC test.

Heck, you can simply pay off Verdruggen or hire Ferrari. You could even hire Ferrari when that alone is a sanctionable offense.

Ultimately, you just need to be ruthless, driven, and focused. Oh yeah, and remorseless.

And then pimp for the drug companies because you are 'Driven by What's Inside.'

Dave.

 

[Jeremiah]

I continue to believe some people are overestimating LA’s extracurricular options. If he wants to avoid losing his titles and remaining suspended, he has to have a hearing. I just don’t buy that it can be blocked. This is not a government investigation or a criminal matter. That means USADA is limited in its sanctions, but it also means that it will be virtually impossible for LA or anyone else to stop it. Another very important factor in USADA’s favor is that this is all about past activity. The decision is not keeping LA out of the TDF, the Olympics, or some other current competition where lots of money is at stake. Whether he keeps his TDF titles or not, whether he can compete in Ironmans or not, matters very little to most people at this point.

His sponsors will be hurt, but they all understand this happens a lot with sports figures. The LAF will be hurt, but I guess will stay with him to the end. Ironman will be hurt, but they may change their rules so he can compete next year.

Legally, as I suggested earlier, his only possibility is to argue that USADA is a state actor, but a court case has already ruled that it isn’t. Maybe he could delay the hearing by resuscitating that argument in some court, but that just means extending the period of time in which he can’t compete in Ironmans. I think USADA has him by the balls with that suspension. It’s a way of forcing him not to delay things, to step up to the plate. I think he might be open to a deal, lose two titles and have the suspension ended or at least shortened. Given the uncertainties in the SOL argument, the paucity of hard physical evidence of doping, and the unprecedented idea of stripping an athlete of virtually a lifetime of results, USADA might be happy to take this deal. If the two sides agreed to that, I’m sure it could be worded in a way to minimize LA’s bad PR.

I don't think USADA would be happy dealing. It looks stupid. They're either all in or they're not. They take away 2004 and 05? He wasn't cheating the rest of the time.

Any way you look at it this is either bad or worse for Armstrong. USADA looks terrible if they negotiate with the guy.

Funny that Ironman may "change their rules." Not that I disagree. They may be so effing delusional they might.

USADA will have their arbitration behind closed doors and Armstrong will lose.

Then he's really in a bind with an uphill fight that only exposes him more.

Unless somehow, someway, this arbitration is stopped, he's over. That's his best shot.

 

[Jeremiah]

I continue to believe some people are overestimating LA’s extracurricular options. If he wants to avoid losing his titles and remaining suspended, he has to have a hearing. I just don’t buy that it can be blocked. This is not a government investigation or a criminal matter. That means USADA is limited in its sanctions, but it also means that it will be virtually impossible for LA or anyone else to stop it. Another very important factor in USADA’s favor is that this is all about past activity. The decision is not keeping LA out of the TDF, the Olympics, or some other current competition where lots of money is at stake. Whether he keeps his TDF titles or not, whether he can compete in Ironmans or not, matters very little to most people at this point.

His sponsors will be hurt, but they all understand this happens a lot with sports figures. The LAF will be hurt, but I guess will stay with him to the end. Ironman will be hurt, but they may change their rules so he can compete next year.

Legally, as I suggested earlier, his only possibility is to argue that USADA is a state actor, but a court case has already ruled that it isn’t. Maybe he could delay the hearing by resuscitating that argument in some court, but that just means extending the period of time in which he can’t compete in Ironmans. I think USADA has him by the balls with that suspension. It’s a way of forcing him not to delay things, to step up to the plate. I think he might be open to a deal, lose two titles and have the suspension ended or at least shortened. Given the uncertainties in the SOL argument, the paucity of hard physical evidence of doping, and the unprecedented idea of stripping an athlete of virtually a lifetime of results, USADA might be happy to take this deal. If the two sides agreed to that, I’m sure it could be worded in a way to minimize LA’s bad PR.

Alford plea, anyone? "Everyone knows I never tested positive, but I agreed to this to avoid millions of dollars in court costs and the decision of a biassed panel."

You're weighing "hard physical evidence" too heavily.
A big part of the case is how LA avoided leaving physical evidence through his multi faceted conspiracies.

Regarding stripping his lifetime of results, a wise man once said that "it's either the greatest comeback in the history of sports, or the greatest fraud."

We all know he's earned the title of "the Greatest!"

 

[MarkvW]

I continue to believe some people are overestimating LA’s extracurricular options. If he wants to avoid losing his titles and remaining suspended, he has to have a hearing. I just don’t buy that it can be blocked. This is not a government investigation or a criminal matter. That means USADA is limited in its sanctions, but it also means that it will be virtually impossible for LA or anyone else to stop it. Another very important factor in USADA’s favor is that this is all about past activity. The decision is not keeping LA out of the TDF, the Olympics, or some other current competition where lots of money is at stake. Whether he keeps his TDF titles or not, whether he can compete in Ironmans or not, matters very little to most people at this point.

His sponsors will be hurt, but they all understand this happens a lot with sports figures. The LAF will be hurt, but I guess will stay with him to the end. Ironman will be hurt, but they may change their rules so he can compete next year.

Legally, as I suggested earlier, his only possibility is to argue that USADA is a state actor, but a court case has already ruled that it isn’t. Maybe he could delay the hearing by resuscitating that argument in some court, but that just means extending the period of time in which he can’t compete in Ironmans. I think USADA has him by the balls with that suspension. It’s a way of forcing him not to delay things, to step up to the plate. I think he might be open to a deal, lose two titles and have the suspension ended or at least shortened. Given the uncertainties in the SOL argument, the paucity of hard physical evidence of doping, and the unprecedented idea of stripping an athlete of virtually a lifetime of results, USADA might be happy to take this deal. If the two sides agreed to that, I’m sure it could be worded in a way to minimize LA’s bad PR.

Alford plea, anyone? "Everyone knows I never tested positive, but I agreed to this to avoid millions of dollars in court costs and the decision of a biassed panel."

I doubt USADA is that concerned about erasing results.

I think that USADA has a show that it wants the world to see.