USADA - Armstrong

[DirtyWorks]

An educated guess would be that Armstrong placed a call to McQuaid right after he made his statement of non-involvement and told him in no uncertain terms that if he goes down without the UCI making a concerted effort to get the USADA off his back, he will rat out not only Verbruggen but Fat Pat himself.

My problem with this is what could Team Wonderboy have on Pat and Hein such that they *can't* kick him to the curb like so many others? The lengths Pat and Hein are going to are unheard of. My first wild guess is picking a winner for the TdF 6X.

 

[sittingbison]

...if he goes down without the UCI making a concerted effort to get the USADA off his back, he will rat out not only Verbruggen but Fat Pat himself.

That is the likely scenario that played itself out between the two days in question.

Ahhhh thanks for the clarification. I was getting confounded because this is a potential throw under the bus and I was looking for an actual throw

Yup, some serious pressure was applied to get Fat Pat to change tack. The funny thing is he just threw himself under the bus, as his correspondance and shrill demands finally leave no doubt that UCI is totally corrupt.

 

[thehog]

Ahhhh thanks for the clarification. I was getting confounded because this is a potential throw under the bus and I was looking for an actual throw

Yup, some serious pressure was applied to get Fat Pat to change tack. The funny thing is he just threw himself under the bus, as his correspondance and shrill demands finally leave no doubt that UCI is totally corrupt.

I suspect that Lance didn’t tell him his letters would become part of “public record” when added to his Federal submission.

That blindsided McQuaid. Hence the the very weak press release made yesterday.

 

[Cerberus]

Our friend here is Armstrong. He actually holds the aces. His defense is to admit to doping. But only because there was mass doping during his era and that the governing body allowed it to occur and made positive tests disappear with donation(s). He could make himself look really good at the end of it. Tell the hearing that he wanted to be clean but there was no hope with the UCI blind eye treatment of dopers. He could smash the UCI to pieces and probably hang on to his 7 titles. He could point to all the other riders who’ve been caught up in drug scandals but never tested positive because the UCI enabled doping. (I’d also throw some cancer stuff in here as well).

So you idea is that Armstrong should defend himself from doping allegation by going "But I didn't just dope like all the other guys, I also engaged in systematic bribery". I suppose if he was accused of theft you'd suggest he should admit to murder?

ETA: Admitting to doping and claiming that it was a level playing ground might fly, at least in the court of public opinion, because it's at least partially true, but admitting to bribery, that's not a smart move.

 

[aphronesis]

So you idea is that Armstrong should defend himself from doping allegation by going "But I didn't just dope like all the other guys, I also engaged in systematic bribery". I suppose if he was accused of theft you'd suggest he should admit to murder?

ETA: Admitting to doping and claiming that it was a level playing ground might fly, at least in the court of public opinion, because it's at least partially true, but admitting to bribery, that's not a smart move.

As has been suggested pages and threads back, wouldn't this leave him open to other litigation?

 

[python]

Between doing Olympics events fluff, and inevitably having to defend USADA inside the IOC, my guess is you won't hear much......

the usada decisive and bold accusations are so far reaching that in my opinion ALL parties, all including wada and the ioc sooner or later will have to either take sides or declare neutrality (like the triathlon authority for example did).

the way things are developing, it's rather obvious that right now a purely legal reconnaissance, not a battle yet, is taking place...big guns like wada, unlike the uci which was forced to show their hand, dont need to show their cards yet. it is too easy to miscalculate whilst the case is in the federal court.

so everyone is waiting for sam sparks to rule on usada motion to dismiss. if i am not mistaken, wada did not provide any affidavit for the 10 august hearing. this is significant because it would indicate that their lawyers are still studying and waiting. But I am 100% sure that wada is on usada's side. this flows from suttlel official hints they've allowed...like for example iirc they stressed officially that usada collected their evidence INDEPENDENTLY of the fed (added: which essentially means wada is the one if not only party the usada shared evidence with)

 

[Cerberus]

As has been suggested pages and threads back, wouldn't this leave him open to other litigation?

Quite likely, but more than that, doping is just a sporting violation, bribery is a crime. You can lose your Tour titles for doping, but you can be send to prison for bribery, though I'm unsure who has jurisdiction in a possible bribery trial.

 

[DirtyWorks]

He has more chance with this strategy than pretending to be clean. Lance cannot win by pretending to be clean.

Does his, or his management's personality permit him to accept the enormous personal consequences though? I'm talking strictly personal here. Even before the myth started, that guy treated himself as the exception to any rule. To suddenly turn around and accept the rules and consequences at this stage in his life seems unlikely.

Legally, if he goes down this road, it's open season on Wonderboy in both civil and criminal judicial processes.

 

[BroDeal]

I'm not trying to speak for Race Radio (he is more than capable of doing so for himself) but just check out how things went down...

RR is probably referring to Armstrong attempting to make a deal with the USADA to provide evidence against the UCI. That would be interesting because it would indicate that Armstrong's goal is now saving his TdF wins rather than preventing the general public from knowing he is a cheat.

 

[Stingray34]

McQuaid would prefer it all just to go away and be handled by USADA. If the UCI handle the case he’ll be under extreme pressure to find a resolution. He can already see that it’s obvious of the extreme bias. Future CAS cases with cite the Armstrong case. Other athletes will claim jurisdiction if successful. It’s a no win for McQuaid. He needs to clear it off his desk immediately. Pat wants to hang out with Royals. He has no time for this. Sadly he’ll have to deal with it sooner than he thinks. 2013 re-election is just around the corner and he needs to hold on to his company apartment, travel and entertainment budgets and beer fridge.

Our friend here is Armstrong. He actually holds the aces. His defense is to admit to doping. But only because there was mass doping during his era and that the governing body allowed it to occur and made positive tests disappear with donation(s). He could make himself look really good at the end of it. Tell the hearing that he wanted to be clean but there was no hope with the UCI blind eye treatment of dopers. He could smash the UCI to pieces and probably hang on to his 7 titles. He could point to all the other riders who’ve been caught up in drug scandals but never tested positive because the UCI enabled doping. (I’d also throw some cancer stuff in here as well).

He has more chance with this strategy than pretending to be clean. Lance cannot win by pretending to be clean.

McQuaid/UCI would be powerless to defend it. No chance he could suggest Armstrong made it all up. No possible. Armstrong could show the donation talk about the meetings with lab directors etc.

Question is. Who would you support? Lance or the UCI?

A very good question!

Lance has suffered a lot over these past two years - by his own admission - and he must really be at his wits end right now. I actually feel sorry for the people around him, his GF and family. I kind of feel sorry for him, too, in a way.

Meanwhile, the UCI carry on their merry way, annointing this or that rider as the protected one and reaping a windfall, all the while hobnobbing with Europe's inbred, erstwhile nazi-sympathising aristocracy and networking with other assorted crocodiles.

When the Feds ended their investigation I was disappointed that the UCI wouldn't be called to account, more than anything else. They're the enablers here. The likes of Lance come and go, but the fat administrators of the UCI milk each new generation's sacred cow.

If the UCI's current administration can be brought down it is a far-more useful event for the good of the sport and its future. If Lance follows the mea culpa you described and thereby assumes a submissive position to the corrupt UCI, he actually takes a double-hit: his career is exposed as a lie and he is not the sui generis and all-powerful hero he likes to promote himself as. He would be admitting he served higher masters, and that is something his ego cannot tolerate. He'd no longer be the solo hero - a foundational element of the myth itself - and instead be the disposable performing puppet of a insidious organisation.

That's gotta hurt.

If it brings McQuaid, Verbruggen et al to justice, I'm all for Lance. I see it in his eyes. He suffers for who he is, and now it's the turn for those nasty pieces of work in bespoke suits.

They're Drs Frankenstein; he's just the monster they created.

 

[DirtyWorks]

But I am 100% sure that wada is on usada's side.

Agreed.

http://www.wada-ama.org/en/About-WADA/Funding/

Given what we know about the IOC, I think WADA's budget will get cut and David's going to be busy justifying every dollar while defending USADA. http://www.wada-ama.org/en/About-WADA/Funding/

It's not right. But this is the dope-friendly IOC we're talking about.

 

[Anonymous]

Or, maybe Lance made another donation.

No way does Pat dive this deep in the full *** pool unless he's worried about something much more than lining his pockets.

 

[Benotti69]

A very good question!

Lance has suffered a lot over these past two years - by his own admission - and he must really be at his wits end right now. I actually feel sorry for the people around him, his GF and family. I kind of feel sorry for him, too, in a way.

Meanwhile, the UCI carry on their merry way, annointing this or that rider as the protected one and reaping a windfall, all the while hobnobbing with Europe's inbred, erstwhile nazi-sympathising aristocracy and networking with other assorted crocodiles.

When the Feds ended their investigation I was disappointed that the UCI wouldn't be called to account, more than anything else. They're the enablers here. The likes of Lance come and go, but the fat administrators of the UCI milk each new generation's sacred cow.

If the UCI's current administration can be brought down it is a far-more useful event for the good of the sport and its future. If Lance follows the mea culpa you described and thereby assumes a submissive position to the corrupt UCI, he actually takes a double-hit: his career is exposed as a lie and he is not the sui generis and all-powerful hero he likes to promote himself as. He would be admitting he served higher masters, and that is something his ego cannot tolerate. He'd no longer be the solo hero - a foundational element of the myth itself - and instead be the disposable performing puppet of a insidious organisation.

That's gotta hurt.

If it brings McQuaid, Verbruggen et al to justice, I'm all for Lance. I see it in his eyes. He suffers for who he is, and now it's the turn for those nasty pieces of work in bespoke suits.

They're Drs Frankenstein; he's just the monster they created.

Dont know how you got that figured.

Armstrong is a self made man. They let him build himself into a 7 time TdF winner with a Shít load of dope while they bagged their %.

Armstrong could've got off the merry go round any time he wanted, but as with his new love of Tri, he doesn't want to.

So no not the fault of Pat and Hein. They let the kid go mad and cashed in on it like so many others, nike, trek etc.....But that doesn't let them off the hook for their behaviour, they deserve as much as what Armstrong has coming.

 

[Benotti69]

And he was competing against other phenomenal dopers in a sport governed by a corrupt ruling body. Nobody is clean here--except perhaps some non-contenders (who supported doped riders).

As far as we are aware the advantage for Armstrong was he had UCI in his pocket. That was phenomenal, which allowed him and his team to dope to levels others could only dream off.

The others that made the podium with him have all been caught with one exception according to USADA.

No, no one was clean, but USPS/Armstrong had all the aces and more dope than the others.

It definitely was not a level playing field. You dont win 7 in a row on a level playing field.

 

[thehog]

Does his, or his management's personality permit him to accept the enormous personal consequences though? I'm talking strictly personal here. Even before the myth started, that guy treated himself as the exception to any rule. To suddenly turn around and accept the rules and consequences at this stage in his life seems unlikely.

Legally, if he goes down this road, it's open season on Wonderboy in both civil and criminal judicial processes.

He already is about to be pressed Federally and by tax agents at the conclusion of the USADA hearing. This is only the beginning. Getting it out in the open during the USADA process protects him far more than holding on to the notion he is clean.

The authorities will understand much better the reasons for the conspiracy.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Armstrong could've got off the merry go round any time he wanted,

I don't think so. It's a seems like a fundamental personality trait of his or his handlers that keeps putting him out there.

 

[Benotti69]

Is it to the benefit of USADA that it happens to be election year in the USA and no one is really willing to stick their neck out for Armstrong in case he becomes big time bad news?

 

[sniper]

If I would have to choose:
- Pat and Hein behind bars, sharing one cell
- Armstrong gets a 4 year ban reduced to 2 years for cooperating, then returns clean and wins his first TdF, in 2014 or 2015.

EDIT: joking about the latter of course. Floyd comes back in unbeatable fashion and reigns over a clean peloton in the next coming years.

 

[DirtyWorks]

The authorities will understand much better the reasons for the conspiracy.

Really? That big... It would explain Pat's behaviour. Well I hope some of the honest people that have been pushed out of cycling can return, otherwise it's numerous wrongs not making enough rights.

 

[Benotti69]

I don't think so. It's a seems like a fundamental personality trait of his or his handlers that keeps putting him out there.

I do think he is flawed and addicted to winning. But whether he is kept there by Weisel in order to sell brand LieStrong, i am not sure.

I think he does it because he can never have enough money and he likes beating people, yes a flawed personality.

I cant imagine he is a fun guy to be around.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

McQuaid would prefer it all just to go away and be handled by USADA. If the UCI handle the case he’ll be under extreme pressure to find a resolution. He can already see that it’s obvious of the extreme bias. Future CAS cases with cite the Armstrong case. Other athletes will claim jurisdiction if successful. It’s a no win for McQuaid. He needs to clear it off his desk immediately. Pat wants to hang out with Royals. He has no time for this. Sadly he’ll have to deal with it sooner than he thinks. 2013 re-election is just around the corner and he needs to hold on to his company apartment, travel and entertainment budgets and beer fridge.

Our friend here is Armstrong. He actually holds the aces. His defense is to admit to doping. But only because there was mass doping during his era and that the governing body allowed it to occur and made positive tests disappear with donation(s). He could make himself look really good at the end of it. Tell the hearing that he wanted to be clean but there was no hope with the UCI blind eye treatment of dopers. He could smash the UCI to pieces and probably hang on to his 7 titles. He could point to all the other riders who’ve been caught up in drug scandals but never tested positive because the UCI enabled doping. (I’d also throw some cancer stuff in here as well).

He has more chance with this strategy than pretending to be clean. Lance cannot win by pretending to be clean.

McQuaid/UCI would be powerless to defend it. No chance he could suggest Armstrong made it all up. No possible. Armstrong could show the donation talk about the meetings with lab directors etc.

Question is. Who would you support? Lance or the UCI?

Support neither.

If Lance flips on the UCI, it validates USADA's action 100%.
He will have admit to being a complete fraud. The LA, HV, PM love triangle is broken.

The remake of Reservoir Dogs is being filmed on site in Aigle.

 

[BroDeal]

I do think he is flawed and addicted to winning. But whether he is kept there by Weisel in order to sell brand LieStrong, i am not sure.

I think he does it because he can never have enough money and he likes beating people, yes a flawed personality.

I cant imagine he is a fun guy to be around.

I think Armstrong is addicted to having his ego stroked and being talked about. He has been like that since before he was a pro. I remember after Armstrong left triathlon to focus on cycling, Miles Stewart started getting a lot of press as a wunderkind from Australia. Armstrong showed up at a tri and was talking big and putting down Stewart. Even though he was no longer involved in triathlon, it burned him up that people were talking about someone else instead of him.

I think return of Cipo was the reason Armstrong came back. He saw all the love people gave Cipo at the Tour of California and decided he could do the same.

 

[Benotti69]

The remake of Reservoir Dogs is being filmed on site in Aigle.

I really hope this is the outcome.

Bruyneel is Mr Pink though thinking he is getting away only to be blown away outside

I think Armstrong is addicted to having his ego stroked and being talked about. He has been like that since before he was a pro. I remember after Armstrong left triathlon to focus on cycling, Miles Stewart started getting a lot of press as a wunderkind from Australia. Armstrong showed up at a tri and was talking big and putting down Stewart. Even though he was no longer involved in triathlon, it burned him up that people were talking about someone else instead of him.

I think return of Cipo was the reason Armstrong came back. He saw all the love people gave Cipo at the Tour of California and decided he could do the same.

I agree.

I bet someone could make a fortune if the guy decided to lie on the couch. Would make some shrink very rich with the amount of couch time Armstrong needs.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet. I stumbled on an old story (2004) about an IAAF athlete who tried to challenge the USADA's role and it apparently went nowhere.

salient quote: "Challenging USADA: Rep. John Conyers, D-Mich., has requested an investigation of USADA by the federal government's General Accounting Office to find whether USADA is "operating outside the scope of its mandate ... by conducting selective investigations of doping violations and issuing rulings based on inadequate evidence." The letter also questions USADA's methods. "

http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/NOTEBOOK-Sprinter-Edwards-might-face-ban-2741586.php

 

[Stingray34]

I really hope this is the outcome.

Bruyneel is Mr Pink though thinking he is getting away only to be blown away outside



I agree.

I bet someone could make a fortune if the guy decided to lie on the couch. Would make some shrink very rich with the amount of couch time Armstrong needs.

Probably not. Most shrinks refuse to treat psychopaths, and terminate therapy when that status becomes apparent. They're untreatable and use therapy to hone their manipulation skills. There is a lot of stuff for him to work through, sure, but it would be a dead end in therapy. Some think psychopaths don't feel pain. They do, lots of it - their own, just not anyone elses, so transference is impossible.