USADA - Armstrong

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Mar 22, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
I don't think so. It's a seems like a fundamental personality trait of his or his handlers that keeps putting him out there.

It isn't his handlers, he is most definitely driving the bus and he has beaten the charges so many times he is not about to stop trying, he's gonna go down with the ship eventually. Time waits for no man. And his time passed about 7 years ago.
 
Feb 10, 2010
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alberto.legstrong said:
It isn't his handlers, he is most definitely driving the bus.

Proof please. He never struck me as creative enough to put the myth together and pull it off. Weisel and other Tailwinders on the other hand, absolutely.

I may be wrong too. I just would like to see some references for this.
 

thehog

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Benotti69 said:
I do think he is flawed and addicted to winning. But whether he is kept there by Weisel in order to sell brand LieStrong, i am not sure.

I think he does it because he can never have enough money and he likes beating people, yes a flawed personality.

I cant imagine he is a fun guy to be around.

Oh he's a total bore.

Spent too long chasing the rabbit to find that when you catch the rabbit its not really a rabbit. It was only a stuffed animal.

He’s spent years running trying not to be his father to find he is actually just like his father. The apple didn’t fall far from the tree.

If he truly wants to rise above then he can admit all in the upcoming USADA hearing. That would make a man of him.

Being loved by those whom you’ve deceived is no compensation for those who respect you for being honest.
 
Feb 16, 2011
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DirtyWorks said:
Proof please. He never struck me as creative enough to put the myth together and pull it off. Weisel and other Tailwinders on the other hand, absolutely.

I may be wrong too. I just would like to see some references for this.

Exactly. It's a key component of both the myth and the guy's self-image that he's steering the ship and always has been, but there's a lot of behind-the-scenes maneuvers from various shakers and fakers. Let's not flatter him by crediting all this self-creation. He's just the talent, not the svengali as well. He needs to be handled with care...try calling and secretly recording a certain Oakley employee for confirmation.

We haven't heard much from the likes of Verbruggen, Weisel, Knaggs or Johnson directly on any of this business of late for a reason.
 
Aug 10, 2010
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Benotti69 said:
As far as we are aware the advantage for Armstrong was he had UCI in his pocket. That was phenomenal, which allowed him and his team to dope to levels others could only dream off.

The others that made the podium with him have all been caught with one exception according to USADA.

No, no one was clean, but USPS/Armstrong had all the aces and more dope than the others.

It definitely was not a level playing field. You dont win 7 in a row on a level playing field.

I guess your point is that cycling is a filthy corrupt sport and that Lance was the filthiest and most corrupt of all. I guess I can agree with that.
 
Jul 23, 2012
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MarkvW said:
I guess your point is that cycling is a filthy corrupt sport and that Lance was the filthiest and most corrupt of all. I guess I can agree with that.

At least Lance had the common decency to make financial contributions to the UCI. Chris Boardman simply wrote a letter asking if he could take testosterone:-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/diets/article-1227777/CHRIS-BOARDMAN-I-cycling-32-I-bones-old-woman.html

Looking at the hilarious Olympics, I can see why Sepp Blatter couldn't face giving the World Cup to England in his lifetime. He is also old enough to remember the 1966 farce.
 
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MarkvW said:
I guess your point is that cycling is a filthy corrupt sport and that Lance was the filthiest and most corrupt of all. I guess I can agree with that.

While this could be successfully argued it is soooooo much more than just that.

Pick a cycling doper, any cycling doper and then start to compare.

Separate point, who else is talking about "truth and reconciliation" besides a few denizens and the USADA? At this point I'd say there is a reasonable chance the UCI's house burns to the ground.

Perhaps we should thank LA for pushing this to a point where somebody in a position to push back - hard, has had the balls to do so.
 
Aug 10, 2010
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Scott SoCal said:
While this could be successfully argued it is soooooo much more than just that.

Pick a cycling doper, any cycling doper and then start to compare.

Separate point, who else is talking about "truth and reconciliation" besides a few denizens and the USADA? At this point I'd say there is a reasonable chance the UCI's house burns to the ground.

Perhaps we should thank LA for pushing this to a point where somebody in a position to push back - hard, has had the balls to do so.

Why haven't the pro teams rebelled against the UCI? It seems most likely that they favor the status quo.

All we can hope for from the USADA process is a fair hearing and a just determination. And apparently, that is a lot to hope for given the attempted interference of the UCI. After USADA's job is done, the UCI will revert to business as usual.

The UCI's house isn't going to burn to the ground. The MOST we can hope for is that reforms will be promised and new stooges put in higher management.
 
Jul 27, 2010
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Let's suppose this goes to CAS, sooner rather than later. For example, Sparks dismisses LA's suit, and now facing sanctions or arbitration, LA chooses to go directly to CAS. I think he well might, because the CAS protocol probably allows for a wider range of legal maneuvers.

What does UCI do? Judging from McQ's latest statements, they seem to have only two possibilities:
a) sit on the sidelines and hope for the best
b) join the fray, on LA's side.

Seems to me that, brazen as taking LA's side would be, they might have to do it. The conflict of interest charge basically draws them in as one of the defendants. Even if USADA had not spelled it out in the recent letter, it was strongly implied in the original charging letter. If USADA believes that passport data that UCI judged as negative is consistent with blood doping, that suggests at the least that UCI was a little lax. And of course, in an actual hearing, the Saugy affair is going to be gone into in great detail, now connected with the donations not long after. We don't know what other evidence USADA may have related to LA buying UCI's favors. I don't see how UCI can watch itself get trashed without trying to defend itself. Plus, Pat's recent about-face suggests that LA has demanded help from him. UCI could provide it without officially being involved in the hearing, but probably would feel its interests would be better served if they were.

So we have USADA vs. Armstrong/UCI. Will WADA then step in to support USADA, as Python suggests? And if they do, will all the other related players--USAC, USOC, maybe even the feds again?--be forced to take sides as well? Seems to see me that this case has great potential for involving far more than the original two combatants.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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Merckx index said:
Let's suppose this goes to CAS, sooner rather than later. For example, Sparks dismisses LA's suit, and now facing sanctions or arbitration, LA chooses to go directly to CAS. I think he well might, because the CAS protocol probably allows for a wider range of legal maneuvers.
Can an athlete simply elect to go direct to CAS? I thought that was only an option once the lower level arbitration had been exhausted.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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ultimobici said:
Can an athlete simply elect to go direct to CAS? I thought that was only an option once the lower level arbitration had been exhausted.

If he ignores the opportunity to arbitrate with USADA what's his basis for appeal to CAS? That they lack authority?
 
Aug 9, 2010
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Merckx index said:
Let's suppose this goes to CAS, sooner rather than later. For example, Sparks dismisses LA's suit, and now facing sanctions or arbitration, LA chooses to go directly to CAS. I think he well might, because the CAS protocol probably allows for a wider range of legal maneuvers.

What does UCI do? Judging from McQ's latest statements, they seem to have only two possibilities:
a) sit on the sidelines and hope for the best
b) join the fray, on LA's side.

Seems to me that, brazen as taking LA's side would be, they might have to do it. The conflict of interest charge basically draws them in as one of the defendants. Even if USADA had not spelled it out in the recent letter, it was strongly implied in the original charging letter. If USADA believes that passport data that UCI judged as negative is consistent with blood doping, that suggests at the least that UCI was a little lax. And of course, in an actual hearing, the Saugy affair is going to be gone into in great detail, now connected with the donations not long after. We don't know what other evidence USADA may have related to LA buying UCI's favors. I don't see how UCI can watch itself get trashed without trying to defend itself. Plus, Pat's recent about-face suggests that LA has demanded help from him. UCI could provide it without officially being involved in the hearing, but probably would feel its interests would be better served if they were.

So we have USADA vs. Armstrong/UCI. Will WADA then step in to support USADA, as Python suggests? And if they do, will all the other related players--USAC, USOC, maybe even the feds again?--be forced to take sides as well? Seems to see me that this case has great potential for involving far more than the original two combatants.


MI I think this is a pretty good assessment. With the two , USADA & UCI, butting heads and challenging it seems a pretty sure deal that at least one other agency will need to step in and take a stand...if not all.

The slippery crew over at USACYCLING will try to stay low but even they may also eventually be drawn in.
With LA's ties so far-reaching it would be more amazing if any one of the players could avoid giving some testimony or comment.

I assume that USADA has done all their homework or they wouldn't be so strongly moving forward. They seem quite nonplussed.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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mewmewmew13 said:
MI I think this is a pretty good assessment. With the two , USADA & UCI, butting heads and challenging it seems a pretty sure deal that at least one other agency will need to step in and take a stand...if not all.

The slippery crew over at USACYCLING will try to stay low but even they may also eventually be drawn in.
With LA's ties so far-reaching it would be more amazing if any one of the players could avoid giving some testimony or comment.

I assume that USADA has done all their homework or they wouldn't be so strongly moving forward. They seem quite nonplussed.

That they are laying this low speaks volumes. They probably look at each other in the office and wonder "who testified...is it too late to get in on the deal?" Then they think about the prospect of TW's hit men...aren't they Kazakh?
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Merckx index said:
If USADA believes that passport data that UCI judged as negative is consistent with blood doping, that suggests at the least that UCI was a little lax.

No, it does not. The data can be below the "positive" threshold, even well below it, and still be valuable as corroborative evidence to buttress witness testimony.

Using "non-negative" passport data combined witness testimony would build a much stronger case than passport data that was considered positive. In the postive scenario, USADA experts would have to theorize what caused variations while Armstrong's experts put forth reasons for the variations or go for the jugular by questioning the science behind a passport that relies on a few samples taken at irregular intervals. In the non-negative scenario, the USADA's experts only have to show that the the passport data is consistent with the witness testimony.
 
Mar 22, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
Proof please. He never struck me as creative enough to put the myth together and pull it off. Weisel and other Tailwinders on the other hand, absolutely.

I may be wrong too. I just would like to see some references for this.

Stingray34 said:
Exactly. It's a key component of both the myth and the guy's self-image that he's steering the ship and always has been, but there's a lot of behind-the-scenes maneuvers from various shakers and fakers. Let's not flatter him by crediting all this self-creation. He's just the talent, not the svengali as well. He needs to be handled with care...try calling and secretly recording a certain Oakley employee for confirmation.

We haven't heard much from the likes of Verbruggen, Weisel, Knaggs or Johnson directly on any of this business of late for a reason.

To me it's just blatantly obvious he's a narcissist and somewhat sociopathic. That's just me and I have no expertise so am perfectly willing to be dead wrong, but I have known some megalomaniac types and if you think they will permit themselves to be handled and dictated to I would disagree entirely.

Of course reasonable can disagree and don't know him personally so simply going on what I have read and what he has written and said himself. Of course anything that ANYONE says about themselves could be totally mistaken as well. But going back to what Floyd and Tyler have had to say taken with what he has said and written, it appears to me to be 100% him. Not that others in his circle can't counsel him, but the final word is always his. ALWAYS.

So a lot of caveats and maybe's in there but essentially I am convinced I am correct. As far as proof... I do have a life and am not about to track it all down and package it for everyone in 1 post of many thousands that will be read by 10 people and then forgotten. Not trying to be snotty, just don't have the time to justify my opinion with a doctoral thesis.

Hopefully one day there will be a lot of testimony from those who have known him closely and we can see a clearer image then. I just want everything to come out good bad and otherwise.
 
Jul 27, 2010
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Can an athlete simply elect to go direct to CAS? I thought that was only an option once the lower level arbitration had been exhausted.

No, the rules allow for this. And as I noted earlier, since the loser of any arbitration is virtually certain to appeal to CAS, both sides might figure they might as well go there directly. USADA, I believe, does not have that option, but then they would be perfectly content to go to regular arbitration if LA wants to take that route.

No, it does not. The data can be below the "positive" threshold, even well below it, and still be valuable as corroborative evidence to buttress witness testimony.

They can certainly be below the positive criterion and be corroborative, I wouldn’t say they could be well below, not if they are going to be of much use. If they triggered the criteria and were sent to an expert panel, which judged them negative, then, yes, they would be very good as corroborative evidence. In fact, though, in that case they might well be real positives. Ashenden claimed in a recent interview that the reason many of these suspicious passport profiles aren’t ruled as positive is because the scientists evaluating them appreciate how difficult it is to explain their conclusions to arbiters on panels, who generally are not particularly familiar with the science. Ashenden was implying, IOW, that LA’s passport data could have definitely indicated a positive, that a panel judging it might have recognized it as such, yet still have ruled it negative because they thought they wouldn’t be able to convince a panel at a hearing. If this is the case, then those data alone would be very important, and certainly would strengthen any witness testimony.

But it may be that LA’s passport data did not trigger the criteria, and were never sent to a panel. If that’s the situation, they wouldn’t be very useful in building a case.

A third intriguing possibility is that the data triggered the criteria, but were not sent to the panel for further evaluation. This would be direct evidence of a coverup on the part of UCI. Since USADA has apparently seen the data, they know which of these three possibilities is in play.

Using "non-negative" passport data combined witness testimony would be build a much stronger case than passport data that was considered positive. In the postive scenario, USADA experts would have to theorize what caused variations while Armstrong's experts put forth reasons for the variations or go for the jugular by questioning the science behind a passport that relies on a few samples taken at irregular intervals. In the non-negative scenario, the USADA's experts only have to show that the the passport data is consistent with the witness testimony.

I don’t agree at all with this. If the data are ruled positive, given all the scientific hoops they have to pass through, LA’s team would have a very difficult time arguing against it. It’s a little late in the game to be arguing against the science of the passport. It has been thoroughly vetted, and even more than the usual substance test, relies on criteria that allow many false negatives just to protect against false positives. When an expert panel concludes that doping occurred, it’s pretty hard to argue against them. Of course having witness testimony strengthens the case, but that is a given here, so the only variable here is the strength of the passport data. The stronger they are, the stronger the case against LA.

Perhaps you are referring to a hypothetical case of a positive passport vs. witness testimony + suggestive passport. That would depend on the strength of the testimony, but since positive passports have been used to sanction riders, I think it would be difficult to argue that the latter would support a stronger case than the former.

OTOH, if the passport were just consistent with doping, LA could reasonably point out that lots of riders have profiles that might be consistent with doping, and that doesn’t mean much. This would certainly be the case if it didn’t trigger the criteria. Then it all hinges on the testimony.
 
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MarkvW said:
Why haven't the pro teams rebelled against the UCI? It seems most likely that they favor the status quo.

All we can hope for from the USADA process is a fair hearing and a just determination. And apparently, that is a lot to hope for given the attempted interference of the UCI. After USADA's job is done, the UCI will revert to business as usual.

The UCI's house isn't going to burn to the ground. The MOST we can hope for is that reforms will be promised and new stooges put in higher management.

Why haven't the pro teams rebelled against the UCI?

Good question. My guess is they have never really had a viable opportunity before.

The UCI's house isn't going to burn to the ground. The MOST we can hope for is that reforms will be promised and new stooges put in higher management.

I'm not so sure. Let's say USADA is able to connect the dots and demonstrate corruption vis-a-vis LA and the USPS team. Why would a company like Deutsche Telekom just sit by and let bygones be bygones? How many millions of euros did they put into their advertising only to have been defrauded by selective dope notifications and cover-up actions by the UCI?

Sure, Ullrich doped. But did Ullrich have an opportunity to pay-off the UCI to turn a blind eye for a supercharged programme? How much more successful would Telekom's investment have been had Ulle won the TdF a few more times?

I'm not a lawyer... perhaps this isn't relevant. The UCI's behavior here strikes me as more than odd. Maybe the stakes are much higher than we know. My $0.02.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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all legal paper work in the case so far points to the fact that any test data, regardless of how much it is suggestive of a positive, will be used by usada only to support witness testimonies. iow, to corroborate , no more. thus, brodeal's analysis is spot on.

this is the cornerstone usada claims for its jurisdiction over the results management. besides, it is patently obvious, that the uci will issue a ban to all labs and other national bodies for sharing any test data with usada...

the reason usada put emphasis on blood passport in its charging letter was tactical - to indicate a pattern of doping that continued after re-retirement and
thus strengthened it's jurisdiction.

me thinks usada is sitting on some other suspicious test data the uci wished to know about.

i have a wild hope that the uci anti-doping czarina from the land of oz (before rossi) will help usada too...after she retired in strange circumstances and i wonder what type of non-disclosure she signed with the uci upon hiring and does she have the courage to speak up.
 

thehog

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Jul 27, 2009
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python said:
all legal paper work in the case so far points to the fact that any test data, regardless of how much it is suggestive of a positive, will be used by usada only to support witness testimonies. iow, to corroborate , no more. thus, brodeal's analysis is spot on.
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Correct. USADA are not attempting to prove a positive in the traditional sense. They’re case is a “doping conspiracy”. Passport data will not be used to open proceedings by the normal means. It will be used to back up witness statements of a long-term systematic, team-wide conspiracy with doctors, managers and the UCI. That’s the difference. The 10 witnesses may not all be team members or cyclists.
 
Jul 27, 2010
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thehog said:
USADA are not attempting to prove a positive in the traditional sense. They’re case is a “doping conspiracy”. Passport data will not be used to open proceedings by the normal means. It will be used to back up witness statements of a long-term systematic, team-wide conspiracy with doctors, managers and the UCI. That’s the difference. The 10 witnesses may not all be team members or cyclists.

From the USADA charging letter:

Lance Armstrong’s doping is further evidenced by the data from blood collections obtained by the UCI from Lance Armstrong in 2009 and 2010. This data [sic] is fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO and/or blood transfusions.

A perfectly normal appearing profile can be “consistent” with blood manipulation, given how easy it is to hide evidence of doping. For this statement to be meaningful, the data have to be suspicious. That doesn’t mean they have to be positive on a standalone basis, but I stand by my original assertion that if the data do not trigger the criteria that requires sending to an expert panel for further evaluation, they are not much help. The whole point of those criteria is to prevent riders from being sanctioned on the basis of fluctuations that might have non-doping causes. If LA’s data had such fluctuations, they don’t mean much. Not unless the dates of such fluctuations can be specifically correlated with the dates that witnesses claimed he engaged in blood doping. That may be the case, but I rather doubt it.

Remember that Contador had far more direct evidence of blood doping against him, and his passport data did not help build a case against him. Why not? Because they did not trigger the criteria.
 
May 26, 2010
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MarkvW said:
Why haven't the pro teams rebelled against the UCI? It seems most likely that they favor the status quo.

All we can hope for from the USADA process is a fair hearing and a just determination. And apparently, that is a lot to hope for given the attempted interference of the UCI. After USADA's job is done, the UCI will revert to business as usual.

The UCI's house isn't going to burn to the ground. The MOST we can hope for is that reforms will be promised and new stooges put in higher management.

Because they have all been indoctrinated in the way of omerta.

Look at Sky, they have taken on the guise of the new USPS in GT performances and who has been lavishing praise from the high heavens on them? McQuaid. Have they bought their cleanliness from UCI in a similar manner to that of Lance?

Why have Sky not been demanding a change of the old UCI guard who enabled the doping in the sport? Because I guess they are in bed big time with UCI now and that maybe the reason that UCI was no bothered about Armstrong's case till lately as he was gone and they were now cosy with Sky.

But it seems Armstrong has threatened them and they have had to react. Whether their was much intent behind that letter or it was for show we will soon see.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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thehog said:
Correct. USADA are not attempting to prove a positive in the traditional sense. They’re case is a “doping conspiracy”. Passport data will not be used to open proceedings by the normal means. It will be used to back up witness statements of a long-term systematic, team-wide conspiracy with doctors, managers and the UCI. That’s the difference. The 10 witnesses may not all be team members or cyclists.

indeed, I find it remarkable and telling that usada are not relying on (hell, not even referring to) the 1999 cortisone positive and retrospective EPO positives.
presumably they feel they don't need those to win their case.
 
Jul 30, 2011
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sniper said:
indeed, I find it remarkable and telling that usada are not relying on (hell, not even referring to) the 1999 cortisone positive and retrospective EPO positives.
presumably they feel they don't need those to win their case.

Outside the SOL. Despite all it's argued that the USADA is doing right, it might be worth recalling the politicized house of cards their case is built on. No matter that LA's lawyers seem too inept to properly throttle that position.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Merckx index said:
From the USADA charging letter:



A perfectly normal appearing profile can be “consistent” with blood manipulation, given how easy it is to hide evidence of doping. For this statement to be meaningful, the data have to be suspicious. That doesn’t mean they have to be positive on a standalone basis, but I stand by my original assertion that if the data do not trigger the criteria that requires sending to an expert panel for further evaluation, they are not much help. The whole point of those criteria is to prevent riders from being sanctioned on the basis of fluctuations that might have non-doping causes. If LA’s data had such fluctuations, they don’t mean much. Not unless the dates of such fluctuations can be specifically correlated with the dates that witnesses claimed he engaged in blood doping. That may be the case, but I rather doubt it.

Remember that Contador had far more direct evidence of blood doping against him, and his passport data did not help build a case against him. Why not? Because they did not trigger the criteria.

Not exactly.

We have not seen the results of the UCI's Biopassport testing from 2010, only USADA's. The UCI refused to give USADA the Biopassport results for 2 years, then destroyed the samples.

The fluctuations also do no have to stand on their own. If, for example, a teammate said that he witnesses Armstrong take a transfusion or EPO on a certain date followed by a look at how his blood values fluctuated following that date this is compelling evidence of guilt
 

thehog

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Race Radio said:
Not exactly.

We have not seen the results of the UCI's Biopassport testing from 2010, only USADA's. The UCI refused to give USADA the Biopassport results for 2 years, then destroyed the samples.

The fluctuations also do no have to stand on their own. If, for example, a teammate said that he witnesses Armstrong take a transfusion or EPO on a certain date followed by a look at how his blood values fluctuated following that date this is compelling evidence of guilt

Did they destroy all 2010 samples or just Armstrong?
 
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