USADA - Armstrong

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Wow, great news. I underestimated USADA, never thought for a moment they would be able to collect enough information to proceed.

I would like to understand the cooperation between the Feds and USADA better. USADA indicate that witnesses spoke directly to them. Bonnie Ford is also saying that USADA collected their own info, implying the Feds didn't pass info over. But there have been claims that the Feds and USADA interviewed witnesses together. So it appears they cooperated, but how exactly?

It makes no sense for witness to talk to USADA unless they were somehow cornered into it, or there was a big advantage for them. Immunity doesn't explain it IMO, as WADA has a maximum 3/4 reduction in sanction for coming forward. In short, I want to know how those witnesses were maneuvered into talking to USADA. I wonder if the Feds might have decided to let the USADA process save them some info gather steps for the civil case. Now wouldn't that be fun.

I guess the discussion will have to wait till the trolls and the clueless slither back to their bridges and basements though. In the meantime, I'm doing the happy hater dance.

 

[WinterRider]

I wouldn't be so sure. I think he was setting it up for this a month ago, or some form of words that admits to mistakes. Then he saw the letter.

LA was probably going to do a documentary or book "If I did it".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_I_Did_It

That's the first thing you've written in this thread that was worth reading.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I suppose if they give it to no one, it not only makes a mockery of years and years of the history of the sport - it's effectively saying 7 tours didn't count - it also indirectly acknowledges that Armstrong was probably the legitimate winner given the circumstances. Thinking about it more, maybe it should be done that way. No one really believes any of the riders he beat deserved it anymore than he did, so they could be marked as tainted but accepted wins perhaps. If they did decide to give the full seven to other riders, that would just be the most absurd thing in the history of sports. Would Americans ever watch the tour again?

Bingo.
Those 7 tours (and the 06 Tour) don't count, because they are indeed a mockery.

In fact ASO should buy a grave, put a lil headstone on it "Tours 99 - 05 RIP" and people can drop their P&P DVDs in to, maybe a big cremation.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

Didn't say anything about that Tour and blood values - but USADA made remarks about Armstrongs blood values of 09 & 10.

The stong implication is you were refering to the tour. You cited a stage in the tour.

Only thing I was clearing up was that you were not Geraint - nor were you speaking for him.

But we do happen to share the same views on this.

I did not imply anything that you implied.

Thanks for clearing that up, but you did appear to be suggesting that Geraint Thomas should know about doping from a visit to Armstrong's team bus on the final stage. You should be clearer in your remarks.

No-one cares what you think. If you can actually show where Geraint actually said that, then it may impress me.
Otherwise you just clutching at straws and making stuff up.

I don't know how to respond to that. People can read the interview and judge for themselves. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/wales/18442349

You're obviously looking for any point you can to pick me up on, but you dived in on the wrong one. Be more patient.

 

[gregod]

The stupid... it burns.

Chris Horner leaps to his hero's defense.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

Bingo.
Those 7 tours (and the 06 Tour) don't count, because they are indeed a mockery.

In fact ASO should buy a grave, put a lil headstone on it "Tours 99 - 05 RIP" and people can drop their P&P DVDs in to, maybe a big cremation.

It's tempting to buy into that and simply dismiss it all, but I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone close to the sport who really believes in their heart of hearts they didn't count. The enviroment was obviously full of dope and rule breaking, but listen to guys like Landis and Hamilton talk about the culture back then. You'd really have to say all the results of tours, small and large, for a good 20 years should be taken away. The important thing is changing the enviroment so riders don't have to make a choice about whether they can be competitive or not, about whether they want to see if they can win. That's a change that is happening. Look at the results of the biggest tours these days. That's what is important, not going after Armstrong. Just get behind the clean riders and teams now - that's all they want you to do. Not write off the past.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The stong implication is you were refering to the tour. You cited a stage in the tour.


But we do happen to share the same views on this.


Thanks for clearing that up, but you did appear to be suggesting that Geraint Thomas should know about doping from a visit to Armstrong's team bus on the final stage. You should be clearer in your remarks.

I realize you are in spin mode and things have been traumatic for you lately - but it really is not that hard, I was talking about Geraint in the Tour.

USADA talk about Armstrongs values in 09 & 10 - so we can dispense with the "it was a long time ago" stuff.

However, I am very interested that you are suggesting that Radioshack were blood doping on the very last day of the Tour - thats quite amazing.

I don't know how to respond to that. People can read the interview and judge for themselves. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/wales/18442349

You're obviously looking for any point you can to pick me up on, but you dived in on the wrong one. Be more patient.

I know how we can respond to it - I will take out all the fluff stuff and just show his quotes - then people will see exactly what he said and not your made up stuff - I know, I know, youre very welcome.

"It's bad for the whole sport really,"
"The main thing is the sport is getting dragged though the mud again and it definitely has a dodgy past,"
"Back in the day it wasn't a very good sport on that front, but in the last decade or so it has improved massively and I think it is moving in the right direction."
"But [Armstrong] is such an iconic figure in cycling that whenever he gets dragged through the mud the whole of the sport does."
"He has had numerous allegations thrown at him through the years but hopefully he hasn't done anything wrong. Hopefully people can let it go."
Hopefully [the USADA] will come to a decision quickly and it won't get dragged out for the next few months,"

 

[MarkvW]

It's tempting to buy into that and simply dismiss it all, but I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone close to the sport who really believes in their heart of hearts they didn't count. The enviroment was obviously full of dope and rule breaking, but listen to guys like Landis and Hamilton talk about the culture back then. You'd really have to say all the results of tours, small and large, for a good 20 years should be taken away. The important thing is changing the enviroment so riders don't have to make a choice about whether they can be competitive or not, about whether they want to see if they can win. That's a change that is happening. Look at the results of the biggest tours these days. That's what is important, not going after Armstrong. Just get behind the clean riders and teams now - that's all they want you to do. Not write off the past.

It would be absurd to value the antidoping rules over the rules that govern the results of sport. That would seriously be putting the cart in front of the horse. The antidoping rules are there to insure integrity in both the event and in the results.

I am SO rooting for Jan Ullrich!

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Why do idiots keep bringing up the "innocent until proven guilty" crap?

NOBODY has incarcerated Armstrong. The guy a) was asked to talk, b) refused (the ONLY one to do so), c) has until June 22 to respond, d) was stopped by a private company from competing.

Only morons think this is somehow a infringement by the government on the "innocent until prove guilty" standard.

 

[ManInFull]

That's OK skippy. Walk it back a bit. No, seriously, no "governing" body is outside the law at least in the U.S.

And, yes, it is a valid current ruling.

Expert vs. Expert, I'll wager. Why can't they do this in November?

What do you want it in November? Any particular reason?

 

[ManInFull]

Armstrong is still far from guilty in the court of public opinion, and even if he gets his TdFs annulled, I honestly don't think that'll change.

Lay off the crack pipe, Armstrong. He will be viewed the same way that Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and others are--as an athlete who used performance enhancing drugs to achieve phenomenal success in his sport. Armstrong's fall will be even worse because he was able to translate his cycling success into a story that inspired millions.

 

[Weapons of @ss Destruction]

I don't know how to respond to that. People can read the interview and judge for themselves. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/wales/18442349

Thanks for the link. I read the interview and have now judged for myself. My conclusion? You're whacked. Just like Dr. M said, you're just making stuff up out of thin air.

 

[BroDeal]

Thanks for the link. I read the interview and have now judged for myself. My conclusion? You're whacked. Just like Dr. M said, you're just making stuff up out of thin air.

That is BPC's standard trolling technique. Distort something, present it as truth, then hope that someone like Dr. M engages him to refute it. Repeat over and over. While I give props to Dr. M for having the boundless patience to set things right, the merry-go-round destroyed this forum.

 

[RigelKent]

Lay off the crack pipe, Armstrong. He will be viewed the same way that Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and others are--as an athlete who used performance enhancing drugs to achieve phenomenal success in his sport. Armstrong's fall will be even worse because he was able to translate his cycling success into a story that inspired millions.

I truly hope they nail him, but every day I talk to people who recite his responses as though they were gospel, call him a true American hero, and say no matter what happens he'll remain one because it isn't true what they're accusing him of. And while they all think Bonds was a steroid user, most think Clemens is being vindictively pursued by people wasting taxpayer money. It's sick.
LA cultivated his image well, and most people only know that he beat cancer and beat "the French." With today's hatred of government and quasi-governmental bodies I think the American public in general won't change their opinion because an organization they know nothing about wins a sporting sanction against him.
Sad, that.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

Geraint Thomas is pulling for Armstrong. He hopes we can all let it go to protect the reputation of cycling.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/wales/18442349

Strange that Dr Maserati didn't pull up Brodeal for getting the same impression of the article as me. Must be an oversight.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

I truly hope they nail him, but every day I talk to people who recite his responses as though they were gospel, call him a true American hero, and say no matter what happens he'll remain one because it isn't true what they're accusing him of. And while they all think Bonds was a steroid user, most think Clemens is being vindictively pursued by people wasting taxpayer money. It's sick.
LA cultivated his image well, and most people only know that he beat cancer and beat "the French." With today's hatred of government and quasi-governmental bodies I think the American public in general won't change their opinion because an organization they know nothing about wins a sporting sanction against him.
Sad, that.

Me too.

Totally agree.

 

[BroDeal]

Prepare to gag.

http://soundcloud.com/rollinsons6m/tomalaris-on-armstrong

Armstrong is like Jesus to people with cancer.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

That is BPC's standard trolling technique. Distort something, present it as truth, then hope that someone like Dr. M engages him to refute it. Repeat over and over. While I give props to Dr. M for having the boundless patience to set things right, the merry-go-round destroyed this forum.

lol. You hoped that nobody would notice that you're actually the person who gave me the idea that Thomas was agreeing with me in the first place.

You guys need to be more coordinated.

I still agree with your interpretation of his remarks. You can't read that and not get the strong impression Thomas thinks this whole case is bad for cycling and wants us to focus on how the sport has changed. Yes his comments are nuanced but it's pretty obvious the point he is making. I agree with him about it. Stop trying to bait me into some pointless nonsense in order so you can brand me a "BPC troll".

 

[BroDeal]

Stop trying to bait me into some pointless nonsense in order so you can brand me a "BPC troll".

You are BPC. Everyone knows it. Don't try to pretend that you are not.

 

[pedaling squares]

It's 2009 all over again. BPC responding to allegations that he is BPC, without getting banned.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Strange that Dr Maserati didn't pull up Brodeal for getting the same impression of the article as me. Must be an oversight.

Why would I pull up Brodeal? He did not attempt to misquote what Thomas said and come up with something like this:

....
No that's not the interpretation of the interview that I, the interviewer and forum members here took from his remarks. We think the interview expresses hope that Armstrong is cleared for the sport. ....

____

That is BPC's standard trolling technique. Distort something, present it as truth, then hope that someone like Dr. M engages him to refute it. Repeat over and over. While I give props to Dr. M for having the boundless patience to set things right, the merry-go-round destroyed this forum.

Well not really - BPCs standard technique is to distort something, present it as truth and hope no-one checks it.

What destroys the forum is lack of action from the mods.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

It's 2009 all over again. BPC responding to allegations that he is BPC, without getting banned.

Why are you guys all about stopping people and banning them? Just focus on the subject.

BroDeal has announced he is trolling other forums without being banned. There are too many realistic users here who discuss the issue in a rational way, so he goes to slowswitch. I suspect he has a history of trolling across the internet and is banned from almost everywhere. Am I right?

 

[mewmewmew13]

aargh...this thread is going down the tubes...
exactly what he wants

 

[pedaling squares]

It's like a TechnicalDescent into the crapper.

 

[TechnicalDescent]

Dr Maserati has pulled me up. He says that I am misquoting Geraint Thomas. And he now says I am misquoting BroDeal in my defense. Could anyone explain how I am doing that? Here are the quotes, you can also read the interview.

Geraint Thomas is pulling for Armstrong. He hopes we can all let it go to protect the reputation of cycling.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/wales/18442349

Originally Posted by TechnicalDescent

No that's not the interpretation of the interview that I, the interviewer and forum members here took from his remarks. We think the interview expresses hope that Armstrong is cleared for the sport. ....

I am genuniely puzzled now. Am I being baited here? What is this guy talking about?