USADA - Armstrong

[MarkvW]

How did he mislead them beyond the lies that any doper would have told? There was never any formal proceedings in those cases, the 1999 corticosteroid excepted.

It seems to me that the best argument for getting around the SOL is evidence that Armstrong took actions against others who would have revealed his doping if he had not done so. Man lies about doping on Larry King or even to an official of an anti-doping agency that is investigating, well, that is par for the course. It has to be expected. Otherwise we would simply ask people if they were doping or not. Man threatens potential witnesses, gets them fired from their jobs, pays people off, etc. That provides an argument that the doping would have been discovered within the SOL if those actions had not been taken. The athlete should not be able to benefit from corrupting the system.

There is a rule-based argument that "investigation," not "formal inquiry" stops the limitation clock.

 

[Race Radio]

How did he mislead them beyond the lies that any doper would have told? There was never any formal proceedings in those cases, the 1999 corticosteroid excepted.

It seems to me that the best argument for getting around the SOL is evidence that Armstrong took actions against others who would have revealed his doping if he had not done so. Man lies about doping on Larry King or even to an official of an anti-doping agency that is investigating, well, that is par for the course. It has to be expected. Otherwise we would simply ask people if they were doping or not. Man threatens potential witnesses, gets them fired from their jobs, pays people off, etc. That provides an argument that the doping would have been discovered within the SOL if those actions had not been taken. The athlete should not be able to benefit from corrupting the system.

The dumping of syringes was an absolutely an official investigation

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/2000/nov00/nov24news.shtml

French justice authorities have announced that there will be a legal investigation into the US Postal team, following allegations of doping. The team is charged with "infraction of the law on the prevention of the use of doping products, inciting the use of doping products and breaking of legislation regarding toxic substances." The investigation will take place in Paris, headed by judge Sophie-Helene Chateau.

Both WADA and the UCI had official investigations the 1999 EPO positives

the 2001 ToS EPO positive will be interesting, especially the way the UCI made it clear to the lab that the case was going nowhere.

One of the best parts of this case will be that USAC and the UCI will be exposed.

 

[Race Radio]

In your cases above -

- the positive for cortisone isnt enough (IMO anyway). They came up with a story that made it acceptable. They didnt make it go away altogether.

- 2001 positive for EPO (TdS) this one is a no brainer. If they prove that, they have him.

- 2005 retro testing. Lance did not do anything to cover this up. They could not proceed due to not having B samples, not notifying him etc in relation to the protocol for testing for sanctions. All he did was spin it in the media ... and possibly in the SCA case, but that is not lying or fraudulently concealing evidence to an ADA

2009 transfusion kits - (not sure what this one is about), but again, concealing his DOPING isnt enough to set aside the SOL. He must be concealing or covering up an investigation that would otherwise find this out.

Armstrong already had a deal with the UCI, that is why they accepted a back dated TUE, something that is clearly against the rules

There will be a lot about the ToS. Not only about what they did then but what they have done in recent times

There was an offical UCI and WADA investigation into the 99 samples. The UCI and Armstrong actively impeded the WADA investigation.

The investigation into the transfusion kits is an official police investigation. It is ongoing

 

[hrotha]

Armstrong already had a deal with the UCI, that is why they accepted a back dated TUE, something that is clearly against the rules

But Armstrong wasn't the only one who got a backdated TUE. Beltrán, Hamburger and Castelblanco got one too.

I have no reason to question that LA was already in cahoots with the UCI back then, but I think the backdated TUE was just standard procedure at the time. It was completely against the rules, of course.

 

[Velodude]

But Armstrong wasn't the only one who got a backdated TUE. Beltrán, Hamburger and Castelblanco got one too.

I have no reason to question that LA was already in cahoots with the UCI back then, but I think the backdated TUE was just standard procedure at the time. It was completely against the rules, of course.

It was a backdated prescription not TUE. You cannot backdate TUE's as they must be lodged in advance and recorded against the rider.

It was a huge conspiracy by the UCI over the 1999 corticosteroid late announcement of a test. The cortico had no threshold level as many LA fans falsely claim. I recall about 28 riders were caught and UCI covered up the lot. Did not want another Festina shambles.

Being in yellow and responding to previous media enquiries that he had no TUE to get exemption for drugs to treat conditions drew attention to him when his positive was leaked. Hence the backdated prescription.

I am certain there would be now more corroborating evidence to Emma O'Reilly available from within the USPS camp of the conspiracy with UCI to cover up the positive.

 

[QuickStepper]

Quickstepper, was that you who several days back told the forum that only armstrong can appeal whilst usada, for some procedural reason can't ??

In case it was you, your explanation of judge sparks granting a delay to both sides is, to say the least, puzzling.

If I recall the discussion last week, it had to do with whether an appeal would lie from a judgment of dismissal upon granting USADA's motion to dismiss. I recall saying then that if the motion was granted, only Armstrong would be able to appeal because the order would be a final judgment and not an interlocutory appeal from which no appeal would lie. That is generally the case, but there are situations in which courts have allowed appeals from what would otherwise be a non-final and ordinarily non-appealable order, and I believe in responding to one of Chewbacca's posts in which he was discussing how federal courts almost never inject themselves into matters involving arbitration clauses, I cited a case (by posting a link to it) where the court not only allowed an appeal from a denial of a motion to dismiss, but ruled that the federal court had subject matter jurisdiction to determine whether or not an arbitration clause was valid or void ab initio. I can't recall the particular post number now and I'm too much of a newbie here to figure out how to find it, so I can't link to it, but that's the gist of it.

So yes, the general rule is that an appeal only generally lies from a final, dispositive order, and likewise generally an appeal will not lie from an order denying a motion to dismiss because it's interlocutory and not a final judgment. But just as in the SOL situation, there are exceptions to every rule. . . I'm certainly not trying to confuse anyone, but sometimes (in fact more often than not) the law is more art than science.

And thus, given that it is conceivable that either side might later be in a position to claim on appeal that the trial court judge (Sparks) denied one side or the other the opportunity to fully present their side of the case, it seems to me that in that sense Judge Sparks' decision to allow further briefing is understandable. And I think this is what MarkvW was also saying when he responded above.

As far as who Judge Sparks was trying to "favor" I suppose we'll find out in a few days or a week or so when he issues his ruling. I'm certainly not making any predictions one way or the other, even if the rest of you seem to think that Armstrong is going down in flames. As so many others here have said, anything is possible, even if it may not be likely, and at this point, I have no idea what he's going to do.

 

[MarkvW]

But Armstrong wasn't the only one who got a backdated TUE. Beltrán, Hamburger and Castelblanco got one too.

I have no reason to question that LA was already in cahoots with the UCI back then, but I think the backdated TUE was just standard procedure at the time. It was completely against the rules, of course.

That is a super-important point. Isn't Armstrong under the gun not only as a doper, but as a doper-helper?

 

[TubularBills]

...This might be a landmark antidoping case.

It already is.

Hopefully it balso becomes a successful landmark case.

 

[Velodude]

That is a super-important point. Isn't Armstrong under the gun not only as a doper, but as a doper-helper?

Is not that the main thrust of USADA's charges that Armstrong & associates were involved in a doping conspiracy?

 

[TubularBills]

I don't see or hear anything...!

try a different browser, IE, Firefox, Opera... sometimes adblocking and individual browser settings also block content.

 

[TubularBills]

Is not that the main thrust of USADA's charges that Armstrong & associates were involved in a doping conspiracy?

+ enabler and pusher.

Sir LA Pimp Daddy

 

[TubularBills]

2009 transfusion kits - (not sure what this one is about), but again, concealing his DOPING isnt enough to set aside the SOL. He must be concealing or covering up an investigation that would otherwise find this out.

2009 Used Blood Doping Kits with 7 distinct DNA signatures found in Astana Trash during 09 TDF (TubularBills #7) - To date no DNA matching tests have been performed, though the final link hints at a Interpol/US connection.

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-sport/blood-doping-kits-found-at-astana-20091224-ldnx.html

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/i...g-tour-de-france/story-e6frf9if-1225786486332

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4...SP-investigation-from-2009-still-ongoing.aspx

"Colonel Thierry Bourret told the newspaper that he would not comment on a current case. However he spoke a little about the OCLAESP, saying that there is more than one person involved when any sportsman decides to dope.
[Conspiracy]

"We realize that doping is similar in most successful cases to a new form of organized crime," he stated.

“First of all, you have a prescriber, the person who gives a doping protocol. It could be a doctor who lost his way. Then, the supplier of products, most commonly diverted drugs. That could be done via stolen products or forged prescriptions. Sometimes you have a provider, one who brings the goods ... Then a facilitator, because some things like blood transfusions cannot be done alone. And finally, someone who will help you monitor the parameters, making sure they are normal so that you may not be detected.”

Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4...on-from-2009-still-ongoing.aspx#ixzz23lzY43hX

 

[TubularBills]

RR? is it possible USADA has a whistleblower from AMGEN describing the blackmarket distribution of the Hemassist retired test inventory?

That would be a slam dunk.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/tag/performance-enhancing-drugs/

 

[BroDeal]

"Colonel Thierry Bourret told the newspaper that he would not comment on a current case. However he spoke a little about the OCLAESP, saying that there is more than one person involved when any sportsman decides to dope.

"We realize that doping is similar in most successful cases to a new form of organized crime," he stated.

“First of all, you have a prescriber, the person who gives a doping protocol. It could be a doctor who lost his way. Then, the supplier of products, most commonly diverted drugs. That could be done via stolen products or forged prescriptions. Sometimes you have a provider, one who brings the goods ... Then a facilitator, because some things like blood transfusions cannot be done alone. And finally, someone who will help you monitor the parameters, making sure they are normal so that you may not be detected.”

Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4...on-from-2009-still-ongoing.aspx#ixzz23lzY43hX

The French had the means to destroy Bruyneel and his team. It would have only required a few DNA matches. They have done nothing. It is an ongoing investigation without any investigating. Realpolitik is alive and well.

 

[TubularBills]

The French had ability to destroy Bruyneel's team. It would have only required a few DNA matches. They have done nothing. It is an ongoing investigation without any investigating. Realpolitik is alive and well.

BD I agree. But it also seems that this case is uncovering massive UCI obstruction and most probably the ASO as well..

It could just be that the French are as frustrated as we are with the governing bodies' complicity in the crime.

Evidence of this comes with the French Authorities (OCLAESP), welcoming the US Fed and USADA investigators - it appears to me that this 2009 DNA trace is the key, and all parties are cooperating.

DNA is definitive.

I've been perplexed by this instance since its occurrence.. ?

I hope we are seeing it play out now.

When you start talking about international complicity, it really gives
the term "conspiracy" legs.

Sir Travis

 

[Oldman]

RR? is it possible USADA has a whistleblower from AMGEN describing the blackmarket distribution of the Hemassist retired test inventory?

That would be a slam dunk.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/tag/performance-enhancing-drugs/

I've long felt that the commercial interests protecting expensive patents and distribution of controlled substances would provide both pressure and assistance to law enforcement. The amount of both illegally sourced drugs would be of concern but the counterfeit knockoffs are a serious financial threat to companies like Amgen. They get no income and the reputation of their product is totally at stake.

 

[Muriel]

As an aside, and apropos of nothing, this made me smile....

How did he mislead them beyond the lies that any doper would have told?

 

[the big ring]

Where to post where to post. I'll put it here or people will start saying I am a JV hater... ;-)

http://xkcd.com/1096/

 

[poupou]

The French had the means to destroy Bruyneel and his team. It would have only required a few DNA matches. They have done nothing. It is an ongoing investigation without any investigating. Realpolitik is alive and well.

The result of political pressure from Sarkozy. Should I remember that he invited Lance and Bruyneel at Elysee despite "The Lies of Lance".

 

[Cavalier]

What is/was the deadline for further submissions if either side wanted to make them?

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

Gotta say....great time to be one of Lance's lawyers or spin doctors. Basically they know his screwed, will not fess up and will go down in flames. Filing after filing they are running the clock on him huge and he knows it. My guess is into them for 100K a week with all the clock time. And he can not stop paying them nor will he course correct. In fact they probably see this as their holy grail....endless!!

 

[spalco]

What is/was the deadline for further submissions if either side wanted to make them?

Midnight today apparently, Texas time.

 

[D-Queued]

It already is.

Hopefully it balso becomes a successful landmark case.

Silly Lance, always wanting to be number one.

RR? is it possible USADA has a whistleblower from AMGEN describing the blackmarket distribution of the Hemassist retired test inventory?

That would be a slam dunk.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/tag/performance-enhancing-drugs/

A whistleblower is possible, but not from Amgen. Hemassist was developed by Baxter International.

Dave.

 

[Berzin]

I saw a very brief video of del Moral disposing of medical waste after driving quite a few kilometers away from the team hotel when he worked for Bruyneel.

I forgot the team (Postal? Discovery?) and the year, but it caused quite a stir, and nothing ever came of it.

Would anyone have a link to the whole video, if one exists?

Who were the ones chasing del Moral around France? Was it a French television crew, independent investigators or the cops?

 

[D-Queued]

I saw a very brief video of del Moral disposing of medical waste after driving quite a few kilometers away from the team hotel when he worked for Bruyneel.

I forgot the team (Postal? Discovery?) and the year, but it caused quite a stir, and nothing ever came of it.

Would anyone have a link to the whole video, if one exists?

Who were the ones chasing del Moral around France? Was it a French television crew, independent investigators or the cops?

Astana.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/astana-under-investigation-in-france

Can't find the link to the video.

Dave.