USADA - Armstrong

[Morbius]

Not a good play by Armstrong. CAS would almost definitely turn down an appeal where the complainant did not exhaust their previous avenues.

More to the point is to what extent are Armstrong, Bruyneel, and the two others on the same page.

Someone upthread said that simply by turning up you accept jursidication, which means that the only way to refuse jurisdication is not to respond. Is that true?

I guess an alternative would be to turn up and argue jurisdication, then appeal that to CAS before moving to the evidence stage.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

One possibility almost no one considered is that usada is NOT obligated to automatically react after a deadline.

say, Armstrong allowed the dead line to pass but files just in time with the appeals court.

this puts usada before a peculiar choice - to automatically trigger the disqualification letter at 1 minute past midnight or show more wisdom and restraint waiting for the reaction from the court of appeals.

Why would Armstrong do that ?

first, to stay consistent with his previous statement re usada arbitration.
second, it could be a psychological war trick (‘I don’t play by your rules’).
third, it could add to his lack of due process argument if usada knee jerks,
fourth, he would count on the court request to extend while it considers the case.
Fifth, having in mind marti’s case where usada reversed itself and allowed the hearing despite the lateness…

should it happen this way, it would indicate how desperate he is.

I am not sure on this, but I would think that him not contesting the arbitration is similar to receiving a default judgment in civil court. There is nothing to appeal because what it essentially means is that you ceded to the charges made, similar to a criminal case would be pleading guilty. You can't appeal something like that. "I'm guilty...now I want to appeal my admission of guilt!" Makes no sense. I haven't read the statutes recently, so I cannot say for sure the supplemental rules don't provide for it, but I see nothing to appeal if he chooses not to contest the arbitration.

 

[Benotti69]

What are CN (or anyone else) supposed to ask?
Benson asked McQuaid if he would resign - you expect Pat to change his answer?

No one. The eivdence is there to write a piece.

Certainly some elements of the media have sucked up to Armstrong - but others have asked questions, not much they can do when they get ignored and ultimately blacklisted by the various groups.

Doesn't stop the stories getting out and written about. If the media wont to roll over for the likes of Armstrong then they have to take the flak from fans.

The bloggers have been writing about this stuff for a long time. Puts the media to shame.

The USADA have the culmination of stuff that lots have known for years.

 

[Benotti69]

That was my take. Appeal the sentence not the judgment. Could work. He’d be still banned for life but he might save 5 Tours.

Armstrong wont give up one tour. To give up one means he doped for all!

 

[ChewbaccaD]

The only thing you could now possibly smell around any Federal court building regarding this case is red herring.

There is a good chance the USADA will get blindsided in the next few hours. Not because there is less to see in the public domain, but simply because they didn't see as clearly as they should have.

There has been an eerie quietness on the side of Armstrong & Co. since Judge Sparks ended his nap. Barring what we are looking at but don't see, it would not be surprising to find this silence go to midnight tonight.

"Blindsided?" That suggests that any legal maneuvering by Armstrong's legal team would have the weight to knock the USADA down. Here is the problem with your little theory, as was the case with filing in federal court to stop the USADA proceedings, making a baseless legal argument does nothing but postpone the inevitable. The USADA sees things just fine as has been proven legal argument by legal argument. Your suggestion is that somehow Armstrong's attorneys have shown half the professionalism and adeptness as have the USADA? Funny take on that. Sure a blind fighter might connect with an uppercut once and awhile, but for the most part, they get their asses kicked pretty hard.

This sounds like the hopeful pontifications of an Armstrong fan.

 

[thehog]

Armstrong wont give up one tour. To give up one means he doped for all!

Also means he lets Travis wins.

The problem is he has no options. He needs to keep evidence out of the public domain and attempt to save some of his Tours. That may be the only option to achieve that goal.

He can’t go to arbitration. Not with 10 witnesses including Saugy.

 

[python]

I am not sure on this, but I would think that him not contesting the arbitration is similar to receiving a default judgment in civil court. There is nothing to appeal because what it essentially means is that you ceded to the charges made, similar to a criminal case would be pleading guilty. You can't appeal something like that. "I'm guilty...now I want to appeal my admission of guilt!" Makes no sense. I haven't read the statutes recently, so I cannot say for sure the supplemental rules don't provide for it, but I see nothing to appeal if he chooses not to contest the arbitration.

my post you quoted only suggested the calculations armstrong's MIGHT have considered should he intentionally decide for let the dead line run with usada but appeal just in time (11:59 pm, 23 august texas time) to the 5th circuit appeals court. if i understand it correctly, the appeals court is not bound to any usada deadlines and looks at every case de novo.

the appeal scenario to cas was brought up by other posters. like you, i dont see it being accepted.

 

[D-Queued]

No, I read those posts and the problem, at least conceptually that I have is that whatever actual or perceived intimidation may have occurred has already long ago taken place, and other than the incident with Tyler in the hallway of a restaurant sometime about a year ago (which involved only verbal comments, distasteful and stupid though they were), I am not aware of any more recent efforts to dissaude any witness from testifying against him. I guess if guys like Zabriskie or Leipheimer or others who are still involved activley in racing and marketing products can be adversely affected if, for example, Nike decides to do "something", well, that might be of concern. But most of the people who I think we all anticipate will testify against him are already excommunicated from whatever inner-circle or influence he has. In other words, whatever damage he could have previously inflicted has probably already been inflicted. I also think Armstrong's continued influence in the sport other than with the few sponsors who still appear to be loyal to him, are probably grossly overrated at this point, and his ability to inflict punitive action on those who dare to cross him are probably pretty limited.

You say you read all those posts, but are you sure you understood the because this comes across as either terribly naive or as outright fanboy denial.

1. Witness intimidation

If you are not aware of it, then you must not actually be paying attention.

Witness intimidation is exactly what dragging the UCI into this was all about.

The UCI then clearly used their influence and intimidation to force USAC on board.

As noted by others, within the past couple of weeks the UCI has explicitly threatened witnesses who are/were just participating in the Tour

Intimidation is alive and well. Even the event Lance just blew off 'cuz he was pounding a few (pounding a few whats?) the night before, underscores Lance's remorseless condescension towards others.

2. Sponsor support, and Lance retribution

Lance is a shareholder of Trek and of SRAM. That gives him plenty of ongoing influence.

Or, were you not aware of the Trek vs LeMond case within the past year? Trek lost.

Not that the subject matter had anything to do with Lance/Trek undermining the support for Greg's brand.

He also effectively blocked Frankie's team from a race recently (as noted by others).

The likelihood of sponsor retribution towards Lance is foolish. These guys have been in cahoots for years (e.g. Stephanie McIlvain).

In addition, for a precedent on anticipated sponsor reaction, how about some sort of analogy to Tiger Woods? For the general public, that is more of a blight on the front man than doing what everyone else does.

But, sponsorships seem to be alive and well.

Thanks Quickstepper, nice to have some legal basis to all the speculation

Huh?

That post is/was all opinion, and Quickstepper acknowledged that throughout.

Dave.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

my post you quoted only suggested the calculations armstrong's MIGHT have considered should he intentionally decide for let the dead line run with usada but appeal just in time (11:59 pm, 23 august texas time) to the 5th circuit appeals court. if i understand it correctly, the appeals court is not bound to any usada deadlines and looks at every case de novo.

the appeal scenario to cas was brought up by other posters. like you, i dont see it being accepted.

Sorry, I missed what you were talking about. However, I don't see a legal argument here that gives the appeals court anymore jurisdiction than the district court had as they both play by the same rules, and rely on exactly the same precedent, which is pretty standard fare. The dismissal in the district court wasn't even a close call. That bodes very ill for any chances Wonderboy has in the appeals court.

 

[frenchfry]

I just can't see him wanting to taking on USADA, they are just too well prepared and ready to go. If he tries to go directly to CAS he could hope they would be less prepared and probably not as agressive. This would also delay things - which to me is always to Armstrong's advantage. I don't see what the downside of going directly to CAS would be.

If he ignores USADA he can play the victim card, but that would apparently close any appeals possibilities so could be risky. This to me appears to be the best solution with regards to his fan base and public opinion, but not from a sanction point of view as he would officially be stamped guilty and most or all of his TDF titles would disappear without a fight.

I just can't see him wanting to go to arbitration with USADA. He knows they have enough on him to do major damage, and the endless witness appearances would destroy his public image. No way he can discredit more than 10 witnesses, especially when their stories corroborate.

Not long to wait to find out what the next move will be.

 

[Benotti69]

Also means he lets Travis wins.

The problem is he has no options. He needs to keep evidence out of the public domain and attempt to save some of his Tours. That may be the only option to achieve that goal.

He can’t go to arbitration. Not with 10 witnesses including Saugy.

It appears the only thing Armstrong can do is to continue to ignore USADA and flat out deny everything. It means losing but if he didn't get in the ring he might not see it like that.

Keep calling it 'witch hunt' keep talking passed 500 tests, keep talking about coming back from cancer, would never dope etc etc...

He'll have some believe him and that may be enough.

I wouldn't like to be near him right now.

 

[Morbius]

Huh?

That post is/was all opinion, and Quickstepper acknowledged that throughout.

Dave.

Sure, but I appreciate having this opinion on the legal matters in this thread and made relevant to this case - unlike others who thought the post should not have been made here.

 

[LauraLyn]

"Blindsided?" That suggests that any legal maneuvering by Armstrong's legal team would have the weight to knock the USADA down. Here is the problem with your little theory, as was the case with filing in federal court to stop the USADA proceedings, making a baseless legal argument does nothing but postpone the inevitable. The USADA sees things just fine as has been proven legal argument by legal argument. Your suggestion is that somehow Armstrong's attorneys have shown half the professionalism and adeptness as have the USADA? Funny take on that. Sure a blind fighter might connect with an uppercut once and awhile, but for the most part, they get their asses kicked pretty hard.

You have good points. Not all of the "half professionalism" was simply stupid. But leave that where it is.

You assume this will all get played out in a court. The Fed case didn't. No one is saying you're wrong, but you can bet that the one person today who is not sure where all the cards are is TT.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

What you guys who somehow think there is a possibility that the 5th Circuit will somehow corruptly create jurisdiction for this arbitration miss something very important: If they do that, they will affect the arbitration process for all other types of arbitration (consumer, employee, B2B, etc). I think the suggestion is that Armstrong has enough money and power to influence the 5th circuit to do something against the precedent for arbitration in his favor. The money and power Armstrong has is a drop in the bucket compared to the money and power of the people who benefit from arbitration in other areas. Not to mention the fact that SCOTUS has set much of the precedent here, and to suggest that Armstrong has the money to influence them is fanciful and wishful. Again, if there is influence by anyone on SCOTUS decisions, it is by people with REAL money. Armstrong is not in their club. He isn't a busboy in their club. He doesn't have enough money to clean the toilets.

I don't worry too much about the idea that the appeals court will find any differently than did the district court.

 

[Benotti69]

You have good points. Not all of the "half professionalism" was simply stupid. But leave that where it is.

You assume this will all get played out in a court. The Fed case didn't. No one is saying you're wrong, but you can bet that the one person today who is not sure where all the cards are is TT.

i bet there is much scrambling for cards on Team Liestrong.

 

[frenchfry]

You have good points. Not all of the "half professionalism" was simply stupid. But leave that where it is.

You assume this will all get played out in a court. The Fed case didn't. No one is saying you're wrong, but you can bet that the one person today who is not sure where all the cards are is TT.

Do you really think Armstrong and his hired thugs are going to pull a stunt that Tygert and USADA aren't ready for? So far that hasn't happened, so I don't see why it should in the future.

 

[JRTinMA]

Or, were you not aware of the Trek vs LeMond case within the past year? Trek lost.

Not that the subject matter had anything to do with Lance/Trek undermining the support for Greg's brand.

1) Trek did NOT lose, the case was settled, you sound like Lance after the SCA settlement.

2) It was 2009, not within the past year.

3) YaY, you got it! LeMond argued Trek undermined his brand.

 

[python]

Sorry, I missed what you were talking about. However, I don't see a legal argument here that gives the appeals court anymore jurisdiction than the district court had as they both play by the same rules, and rely on exactly the same precedent, which is pretty standard fare. The dismissal in the district court wasn't even a close call. That bodes very ill for any chances Wonderboy has in the appeals court.

the appeals court dismissal of armstrong's claims in my estimation is A GIVEN. it's more stalling and delays that could have been accomplished, i angled on - artmstrong's intentionally risky games b/c he's cornered.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

You have good points. Not all of the "half professionalism" was simply stupid. But leave that where it is.

You assume this will all get played out in a court. The Fed case didn't. No one is saying you're wrong, but you can bet that the one person today who is not sure where all the cards are is TT.

To the first bolded section, agreed.

To the second, no, I don't assume any such thing. In fact, I think just the opposite. The little problem you have is that if it doesn't, the process is weighted at this point to the favor of the USADA by a WIDE margin. Not to mention the fact that the evidence against Armstrong will see the light of day, and that is the thing he is trying harder than anything to keep from happening. Because when people hear the evidence, his little ruse and shell game is blown. The idea that the USADA is sitting there waiting to be blindsided by some argument they could not possibly have foreseen is laughable to me, but you keep your little narrative if you must.

 

[serottasyclist]

Can LA simply ignore the deadline?

More specifically, can he refuse to accept USADA's jurisdiction and not respond, then appeal any penalty to CAS on technical grounds? Doing that would keep the evidence out of public domain for a considerable time. He would have to make a public statement saying that is what he is doing, ahead of USADA announcing he has accepted 'guilt'.

I think a smartest way of doing this would be not not respond to USADA at all, and only when the triathalon governing body officially strips him of his license and/or refuses to give him a license or whatever their response is, take up that action in court/CAS/wherever. His position would be "USADA had no jurisdiction, so you have no basis to deny me opportunity to compete" Then the only issue in that arbitration would be whether or not USADA had jurisdiction, and he would maintain a consistent position that he truly didn't believe he had any reason to deal with the USADA charging letter in any way since he didn't think they had jurisdiction. I don't see how CAS or any other governing body could fault Armstrong for "not exhausting process" if he takes this approach.

If Lance arbitrates with USADA then surely jurisdiction will be the first issue addressed, but the problem is that if Lance loses the jurisdiction issue there, then he has to finish the arbitration - i.e., address the merits.

If he just ignores USADA and then fights but loses the jurisdiction issue after the fact, he never has to face the merits of the case and can simply say "look, I didn't think they had jurisdiction and didn't think they'd give me a fair trial, so I wasn't going to play with them at all on their turf. I'm sorry CAS (or whoever) doesn't agree with me."

Seems the smartest approach to me in terms of avoiding having to deal with the merits but still putting on a straight face that USADA was a kangaroo court that he didn't want to submit to in any way.

 

[RichWalk]

It may all be to much for the poor lad and he see's his only way out as a faked suicide, only to reappear several years later as the new head of UCI

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I think a smartest way of doing this would be not not respond to USADA at all, and only when the triathalon governing body officially strips him of his license and/or refuses to give him a license or whatever their response is, take up that action in court/CAS/wherever. His position would be "USADA had no jurisdiction, so you have no basis to deny me opportunity to compete" Then the only issue in that arbitration would be whether or not USADA had jurisdiction, and he would maintain a consistent position that he truly didn't believe he had any reason to deal with the USADA charging letter in any way since he didn't think they had jurisdiction. I don't see how CAS or any other governing body could fault Armstrong for "not exhausting process" if he takes this approach.

If Lance arbitrates with USADA then surely jurisdiction will be the first issue addressed, but the problem is that if Lance loses the jurisdiction issue there, then he has to finish the arbitration - i.e., address the merits.

If he just ignores USADA and then fights but loses the jurisdiction issue after the fact, he never has to face the merits of the case and can simply say "look, I didn't think they had jurisdiction and didn't think they'd give me a fair trial, so I wasn't going to play with them at all on their turf. I'm sorry CAS (or whoever) doesn't agree with me."

Seems the smartest approach to me in terms of avoiding having to deal with the merits but still putting on a straight face that USADA was a kangaroo court that he didn't want to submit to in any way.

Yea, except for the fact that he didn't exhaust his administrative remedies in your scenario, you have a point...

 

[LauraLyn]

To the first bolded section, agreed.

To the second, no, I don't assume any such thing. In fact, I think just the opposite. The little problem you have is that if it doesn't, the process is weighted at this point to the favor of the USADA by a WIDE margin. Not to mention the fact that the evidence against Armstrong will see the light of day, and that is the thing he is trying harder than anything to keep from happening. Because when people hear the evidence, his little ruse and shell game is blown. The idea that the USADA is sitting there waiting to be blindsided by some argument they could not possibly have foreseen is laughable to me, but you keep your little narrative if you must.

Bold 1: Agree. (The "wide margin" is too much speculation at this point.)
Bold 2: Not yet "fact". Still waiting on the fat lady.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Okay, I have to go to class. My fear now is that after class and work, I will return to my computer to find some amazingly crafted opposition by Armstrong that will end in this working out in his favor. After all, I am a mere law student, and don't play the big boy's game with real money...

Good day all.

 

[Morbius]

Yea, except for the fact that he didn't exhaust his administrative remedies in your scenario, you have a point...

He would be refusing to accpet that the arbitrators have the right to arbitrate on the scope of arbitration. Once starts on administrative remedies he is accepting this point.

He took this to US courts and they washed their hands. CAS is the only other game in town.