USADA - Armstrong

[Anonymous]

What if there is illegal or unlawful disclosure of grand jury information on usada’s part. Travis T. was on a ride along with bald head novitz during some of the investigation. It would then appear that usada might be corrupt.
Maybe Lance is having his lawyers work on some type of legal action against usada along with the response to usada’s claim letter?

My, my. What if......

 

[Jeremiah]

pseudo scientific

Bjarne Riis won only one tour though. I think his example supports my contention. He was nowhere near as dominant as LA.

See the thing is that, since I nor anyone else has any clue about whether or not any pro rider is a "responder" or "non-responder" to PEDs, I'm assuming the next most logical approach to the problem and that is to apply a normal distribution in which 96% of the population lies within 2 SDs of the mean. If Riis actually was and LA was destined to be a water bottle fetcher in GTs and PEDs alone changed all that, then they both must have had average physiology only (for the pro-peloton) but instead have experienced an outstanding response to PEDs, perhaps 2 or 3 SDs away from the mean. Lance even moreso, because he was much more successful than Riis.

This seems less plausible to me than beginning with above average physiology combined with an above average PED response.

If you take the worst rider in the pack and give him a 15% increase in threshold power he becomes a tour champion. If you take one of the best riders in the pack and do the same, he becomes a 7x tour champion.

Hog wash.

You're forgetting the USPS swarm technique and after the 2001 tour everybody looked at Armstrong victories as forgone conclusions.

Merckx and Hinault were commenting on the inevitability of it all.

Even fortified by Carmichael's briefcase of conventional weapons, Armstrong wasn't "one of the best riders in the pack" and because he'd been cheating from a very early age, all of these arguments are moot anyway.

This is the USADA thread.

Armstrong was the Godfather in the post Festina era of doping. He made a conscious decision to break every rule against doping in the book.

The chickens are now coming home to roost.

Let the process be as painless as possible. The rot that will be exposed if Armstrong fights this, is going to be breathtaking even to the jaded clinic acolytes. A sad, pathetic, spectacle.

 

[college]

Ah, so this is what you mean when you suggest that USADA are corrupt.

Do you have anything to show that USADA have anything from a GJ? Thought not.
Indeed Travis was in Europe with Nobitzky, can you show how that is illegal, yet alone corrupt? Didn't think so.

I am only bringing up a possibility.
That federal investigation was done by the federal government. If usada has used information from the grand jury investigation without proper permissions then guess what. That is against the law and could be reason enough for Lance to sue usada.
I did not see you asking for folks to show anything they might have with regards to which actors were going to play particular characters including Floyd and Tyler the liars. That was about people bringing up a possible movie but yet you felt no need to wade in and ask for anything to show.

 

[thehog]

The saddest effect of what doping does is not to the body but the mind. Long term dopers forget what they can actually achieve naturally. After a period they cannot remember what it was like to compete and perform naturally. It’s very hard to give away dope. Not because of any form of addiction but you actually get personally frightened what your natural level is minus doping products. Depression is not unusual in athletes when they withdraw from long-term doping.

In regards to Armstrong I predict that he will suffer from mental health issues in the next few years. He is a strong guy mentally but when you’ve been doping since age 16 he’ll have no idea of what his ability is naturally. Neither do we. No one knows what his athletic abilities are. All of his results from an early age are skewed by some form of doping. His results post cancer are worse because of the blood manipulation.

I find it all rather sad. I actually believe he thinks he hasn’t doped. It’s been ingrained in him from such an early age that he firmly believes its normal.

 

[DirtyWorks]

If Riis actually was and LA was destined to be a water bottle fetcher in GTs and PEDs alone changed all that, then they both must have had average physiology only (for the pro-peloton) but instead have experienced an outstanding response to PEDs, perhaps 2 or 3 SDs away from the mean. Lance even moreso, because he was much more successful than Riis.

So far so good!

This seems less plausible to me than beginning with above average physiology combined with an above average PED response.

Why is it implausible? It's what has been observed with about 10 years of public data and anecdotes about doping in athletics.

If you take the worst rider in the pack and give him a 15% increase in threshold power he becomes a tour champion. If you take one of the best riders in the pack and do the same, he becomes a 7x tour champion.

It's absolutely not that simple. You are making a bunch of false assumptions to make that claim plausible.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I am only bringing up a possibility.
That federal investigation was done by the federal government correct. If usada has used information from the grand jury investigation without proper permissions then guess what. That is against the law and could be reason enough for Lance to sue usada.
I did not see you asking for folks to show anything they might have with regards to which actors were going to play particular characters including Floyd and Tyler the liars. That was about people bringing up a possible movie but yet you felt no need to wade in and ask for anything to show.

Hi College,
That would be because you have brought up on a number of occasions that USADA is corrupt. All I'm asking is that you back up what would be a very serious charge.
So far you have a lot of "ifs" and nothing more.

 

[thehog]

I am only bringing up a possibility.
That federal investigation was done by the federal government correct. If usada has used information from the grand jury investigation without proper permissions then guess what. That is against the law and could be reason enough for Lance to sue usada.
I did not see you asking for folks to show anything they might have with regards to which actors were going to play particular characters including Floyd and Tyler the liars. That was about people bringing up a possible movie but yet you felt no need to wade in and ask for anything to show.

The sound of clutching straws.

 

[Jeremiah]

But that is what Krebs is saying. He said that Lance probably would have won the TdF clean if everyone was clean, and might have even won 7.

Basically Krebs is saying that the difference between the athletes all doped, is the same as the difference when none of them are doped. Whereas most of the people who frequent this board are arguing that if no one was doped, Lance would not be a GT contender.

Entirely speculative morally relatavistic defense argument. Remember Armstrong is STILL arguing he never doped. The first step would be for armstrong to MAKE the Krebs argument.

Why won't he make that argument himself?

First of all, because others are so ready, willing, and able? to carry water for him.

Secondly because armstrong is smart enough to know that it's all OVER if he admits doping.

Next.

 

[college]

The sound of clutching straws.

Clutching at straws is what you were doing in your previous post because you posted without any requirement of proof from dr. Maserati that Lance has doped since he was 16. How does this go along with the usual requests here?

 

[GJB123]

Are you suggesting that Ullrich was a "moderate" doper?

More moderate than Armstrong? Yes!

 

[andy1234]

Hog wash.

You're forgetting the USPS swarm technique and after the 2001 tour everybody looked at Armstrong victories as forgone conclusions.

Merckx and Hinault were commenting on the inevitability of it all.

Even fortified by Carmichael's briefcase of conventional weapons, Armstrong wasn't "one of the best riders in the pack" and because he'd been cheating from a very early age, all of these arguments are moot anyway.

This is the USADA thread.

Armstrong was the Godfather in the post Festina era of doping. He made a conscious decision to break every rule against doping in the book.

The chickens are now coming home to roost.

Let the process be as painless as possible. The rot that will be exposed if Armstrong fights this, is going to be breathtaking even to the jaded clinic acolytes. A sad, pathetic, spectacle.

Anyone who wins the world pro road race is one of the best in the pack.
At that age he was also only going to get better.

 

[Anonymous]

I am only bringing up a possibility.
That federal investigation was done by the federal government. If usada has used information from the grand jury investigation without proper permissions then guess what. That is against the law and could be reason enough for Lance to sue usada.
I did not see you asking for folks to show anything they might have with regards to which actors were going to play particular characters including Floyd and Tyler the liars. That was about people bringing up a possible movie but yet you felt no need to wade in and ask for anything to show.

Here's an "if" for you.

How about if Armstrong did most/all he's accused of? There's actually evidence to support the idea.

Do you see the difference?

 

[Krebs cycle]

Ack, I must admit I had forgotten his Tour du Ponts results, but the premise still holds as although a tough event it lacked the serious GC riders.

To the highlighted - I have said I believe he probably would have been a top 10 in TdF (if no such thing as rEPO), but breaking top 5 would be a huge ask.
Krebs position has shifted, they said that LA would still have been a dominant GTer regardless. Now they have watered it down to a level that I agree with.

well actually this is what I said to begin with....

So, I believe it is likely that had there been no doping in cycling ever, Lance probably could have or would have been a cycling champion. 7 TdF wins? Who knows.

The only thing I have since revised is that I am more strongly in favor of the probability that 7 TdF wins would have been highly unlikely.

Everyone is saying that LA was not special in terms of his natural physiology for GT racing (because he didn't shine in stage racing), but he was special when it came to responding to PEDs.... the "donkey to the racehorse". I'm saying that donkey's don't win a plethora of junior national titles, TdF stages and one day classics when they are still U23. And donkey's might become racehorses but they don't become multiple consecutive champions over a 7yr period. You need to start with a thoroughbred if you want to achieve that level of success.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

You have all received one warning. No more of the "cool story" stuff, and don't try to come up with a similar phrase.

An automatic 24-hour ban will ensue, for ignoring two mod warnings.

Susan

 

[GJB123]

But that is what Krebs is saying. He said that Lance probably would have won the TdF clean if everyone was clean, and might have even won 7.

Basically Krebs is saying that the difference between the athletes all doped, is the same as the difference when none of them are doped. Whereas most of the people who frequent this board are arguing that if no one was doped, Lance would not be a GT contender.

Actually I don't think that is what he is saying, although it is up to him to confirm that or not. What he is saying is that all cows are animals (all Gt-contenders were outstanding under 23's) but not all animals are cows (it isn;t a given that if you are good user 23 you will be a GC-contender).

I think his point is that Armstrong might have been a top 10 GT-contender and might have won 1 or maybe 2 TdF given the right circumstances. I don't think he is dating he would have won 7.

Regards
GJ

 

[pmcg76]

Anyone who wins the world pro road race is one of the best in the pack.
At that age he was also only going to get better.

Like Rudy Dhaenans, Joop Zootomelk at 38, Igor Astarloa, Romain Vainsteins Oskar Camenzind etc, etc.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Anyone who wins the world pro road race is one of the best in the pack.
At that age he was also only going to get better.

So how soon do you think Cavendish will fulfill his promise and win the Tour?

 

[GJB123]

I am only bringing up a possibility.
That federal investigation was done by the federal government. If usada has used information from the grand jury investigation without proper permissions then guess what. That is against the law and could be reason enough for Lance to sue usada.
I did not see you asking for folks to show anything they might have with regards to which actors were going to play particular characters including Floyd and Tyler the liars. That was about people bringing up a possible movie but yet you felt no need to wade in and ask for anything to show.

This from someone who had to be told 3 pages back that USADA wash;t actually a federal institution. Now I don't have any particular knowledge of US law, but my guess would be (as a lawyer) that USADA is not in the wrong but Novitzky could have a problem if he disclosed more than he was allowed to.

Regards
GJ

 

[thehog]

Like Rudy Dhaenans, Joop Zootomelk at 38, Igor Astarloa, Romain Vainsteins Oskar Camenzind etc, etc.

Especially when over 50% of the field drops out of the race like in 1993.

That year was the softest win in WC history.

 

[thehog]

This from someone who had to be told 3 pages back that USADA wash;t actually a federal institution. Now I don't have any particular knowledge of US law, but my guess would be (as a lawyer) that USADA is not in the wrong but Novitzky could have a problem if he disclosed more than he was allowed to.

Regards
GJ

Incorrect. There is a bilateral agreement between the government and USADA for this very purpose.

The atheletes are aware of this.

 

[GJB123]

Especially when over 50% of the field drops out of the race like in 1993.

That year was the softest win in WC history.

To be honest when I watched his WC in 1993 I remember thinking that 1) I liked his gutsy style of racing and 2) this guy can really win some 1 day classics when he applies himself. At no time before 1999 (or even after the 1998 Vuelta for that matter) I had the notion that he could be a TdF-winner, let alone a 7-time winner. I have been watching cycling since app. 1975 and never ever was I so way off the mark as I was with LA. He came out of virtually nothing to win the TdF in 1999 as far as I am concerned.

Regards
GJ

 

[andy1234]

Like Rudy Dhaenans, Joop Zootomelk at 38, Igor Astarloa, Romain Vainsteins Oskar Camenzind etc, etc.

Like Merckx, Hinault, lemond, Boonen, Roche, Maertens, Gimondi, Bugno.....

 

[GJB123]

Incorrect. There is a bilateral agreement between the government and USADA for this very purpose.

The atheletes are aware of this.

Even better. So college's pint was even more moot than I thought. Thanks for enlightening me. Never too old to learn something new.

 

[GJB123]

Like Merckx, Hinault, lemond, Boonen, Roche, Maertens, Gimondi, Bugno.....

Merckx doped, Lemond not, Boonen who knows (we know he snorts every now and then), for Roche there is a topic, Maertens doped, Gimondi before my time and Bugno doped. What is your point exactly?

Regards
GJ

 

[andy1234]

Especially when over 50% of the field drops out of the race like in 1993.

That year was the softest win in WC history.

I thought it might have been

I have noticed that the biggest retirement rate is in the easiest races....