USADA - Armstrong

[spetsa]

It's not BS.

Sock puppet or friend?

 

[lean mean &green]

Yeah, sorry, I was just responding to that College dude's part of the post. I was just too lazy to go look up his post and respond to it directly.

I do find the lame USADA corruption line just downright funny. Never mind that they weren't even involved in cycling until most of this had already happened... Seriously, what were these guys supposed to do? The fed investigation put them in a position where they literally had no other option but to go after LA, or they'd have looked ridiculous. So attempting to characterize them as being on a "which hunt" or having an axe to grind is just hilarious to me.

I think this is Tygart's worst nightmare! I'm willing to be he's rather spend his time on the low-hanging fruit, the Phil Zajiceks of the world.

You're still focusing on the wrong details. RR's post fills in a missing piece of the puzzle for me. I could never figure out how LA got into bed with the UCI. Finger pointing after the cancer diagnosis and the UCI's liability in ignoring abnormal test results may have resulted in deals being struck. We have no way of knowing for certain but it's a better explanation then I've ever had before.

 

[andy1234]

We are not in disagreement as far as you go there. Lances WC did show a big future as did Boonen's and Cavendish's and most of the rest. Some WC results are flukes and show very little however, and no 1 day race result shows very much about how a rider will fare in 3 week stage races. That is the point I was trying to make.
A multi-Classics winning rider can be a big big star without ever finishing a GT, let alone winning. That seemed to me the direction that LA was headed before something happened during his recovery from a life threatening cancer that morphed him into the winningest TDF rider of all time. I have read Coyle's theories on what happened, and I don't buy them. YMMV

I Agree, but the problem is that Armstrong never competed in a tour in the non EPO era.
Lets say Hinault or Fignon began their careers at the same time. Would they have shown genuine GT promise, or would they have been overshadowed?

Possibly, the biggest performing riders from the early to mid 90's were simply the earliest adopters who learnt the do's and don't s of EPO use and perfected its use in that time.

The riders beginning their tour careers in the mid 90's onwards, such as Ullrich, could use that perfected knowledge from the off and show their true GT form against an EPO fuelled field.

A rider like Armstrong may have been hidden as a GT contender, in the same way as Hinault or Fignon may have been, and only show GT promise once on a programme to match the other contenders.

A podium in Paris Nice in 1996 could have been an indicator of this possibility. The cancer may have halted or reversed any further success at this point.

This is purely a theory and not something I have any belief in, its just a thought....

 

[lean mean &green]

Sock puppet or friend?

Neither, i'll call it common sense.

 

[sniper]

I'm just bumping this particular post. Most seem to have glossed over it but I actually thought it to be one of the most interesting in the thread.
(...)

I also thought it was interesting and didn't gloss over it.

(...) see here (...)

let's hope this turns into something more tangible in the very near future. I 'd love to see Hein go down.

 

[frenchfry]

To be honest when I watched his WC in 1993 I remember thinking that 1) I liked his gutsy style of racing and 2) this guy can really win some 1 day classics when he applies himself. At no time before 1999 (or even after the 1998 Vuelta for that matter) I had the notion that he could be a TdF-winner, let alone a 7-time winner. I have been watching cycling since app. 1975 and never ever was I so way off the mark as I was with LA. He came out of virtually nothing to win the TdF in 1999 as far as I am concerned.

Regards
GJ

My memory of the 1993 worlds was that the road was like a skating rink at one point. Not to say the win wasn't legitimate, but maybe less of an indicator of future performance than if it was in less dantesque conditions.

 

[thehog]

My memory of the 1993 worlds was that the road was like a skating rink at one point. Not to say the win wasn't legitimate, but maybe less of an indicator of future performance than if it was in less dantesque conditions.

That's the same as my memory. Riders weren't dropping out due to fatigue but because the race became ridiculous. The organisers had reprinted the white lines on the road before the race. Unfortunately they used the wrong type of paint which cause everyone to go down even at slow speeds. At one point Raul Alcala slipped across a 4 lane road into a railway track an missed a passing train by 30 seconds! After that occurred most riders packed it in. It was just too dangerous.

Post race all the talk was on the race conditions not Lance Armstrong.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I also thought it was interesting and didn't gloss over it.

let's hope this turns into something more tangible in the very near future. I 'd love to see Hein go down.

That would be the best result to come from this. Even if it only got as high as Fat Pat, but the more the merrier.

 

[andy1234]

That's the same as my memory. Riders weren't dropping out due to fatigue but because the race became ridiculous. The organisers had reprinted the white lines on the road before the race. Unfortunately they used the wrong type of paint which cause everyone to go down even at slow speeds. At one point Raul Alcala slipped across a 4 lane road into a railway track an missed a passing train by 30 seconds! After that occurred most riders packed it in. It was just too dangerous.

Post race all the talk was on the race conditions not Lance Armstrong.

I guess that makes Roubaix the least credible classic.?
Throw in a bit of rain and anyone could win it...

 

[Microchip]

You're still focusing on the wrong details. RR's post fills in a missing piece of the puzzle for me. I could never figure out how LA got into bed with the UCI. Finger pointing after the cancer diagnosis and the UCI's liability in ignoring abnormal test results may have resulted in deals being struck. We have no way of knowing for certain but it's a better explanation then I've ever had before.

Yes, I thought RaceRadio's comment was very significant. However, I couldn't decipher what College was saying that made RaceRadio say "This is very true". Apparently you understood what he was saying.

 

[thehog]

I guess that makes Roubaix the least credible classic.?
Throw in a bit of rain and anyone could win it...

You haven't even seen the 1993 race. You're commenting from a position of ignorance.

If you know so much about the race tell me who was in the Armstrong group when he attacked to win? Bet you can’t even name one rider.

 

[my username is flish]

Yet since Armstrong's win in '93, only Olano in '95 (on a the mountainous Duitama course) has been a GT man.

*cough* ...Evans..*cough*

 

[pedaling squares]

Bet you can't even name one rider.

Jeannie Longo?

 

[andy1234]

You haven't even seen the 1993 race. You're commenting from a position of ignorance.

If you know so much about the race tell me who was in the Armstrong group when he attacked to win? Bet you can’t even name one rider.

Gerard Rue, Dag Otto and Franz Massen.

Let me know if you want to discuss cycling history?
Why don't we start with how many of these races either of us were actually at?

 

[GJB123]

My memory of the 1993 worlds was that the road was like a skating rink at one point. Not to say the win wasn't legitimate, but maybe less of an indicator of future performance than if it was in less dantesque conditions.

I think your recollection is correct. Nevertheless he was there when it mattered in the race, which wasn't a given in the circumstance and at his age. He deserves a bit more credit for that effort.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

You haven't even seen the 1993 race. You're commenting from a position of ignorance.

If you know so much about the race tell me who was in the Armstrong group when he attacked to win? Bet you can’t even name one rider.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSjAeukkJpg

 

[GJB123]

GJB123, see the quote above? Krebs didn't say outright that he would have won all 7, but he certainly thinks it was a realistic possibility. He has since downgraded his opinion to "highly unlikely" to have won all 7, but still possible.

This is what is some people here, myself included, think is ridiculous about his position. In a clean peloton, there is no way he could do that, and most likely he wouldn't have even been a contender.

He had the best doping doctor, paid him to work with no one else, and had the best doped team to help him, and his doping was done to a much higher degree of effectiveness than anyone else. That is what made him so dominant, not his physiology.

Before you go any further: we actually agree. You did notice that, didn't you?

 

[MarkvW]

The "Ted Stevens Olympic and Amateur Sports Act" appears to invest exclusive jurisdiction over sporting eligibility in the USOC and WADA is the antidoping group that contracts with the USOC. Those facts got Trevor Graham's (BALCO Dope Coach's) case tossed out of federal court.

Having a hard time seeing how Lance isn't facing the same problem with his "constitutionality" bs. Is cycling's relation to USADA different from track and field's?

 

[thehog]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSjAeukkJpg

Its ok. I've seen the race a 100 times.

 

[Weapons of @ss Destruction]

I guess that makes Roubaix the least credible classic.?
Throw in a bit of rain and anyone could win it...

No, but it does speak to the possibility that some races either because of their general format or else due to race day conditions, are more indicative of very specific racing strengths and perhaps not as much toward the prediction of future physiological capabilities, which is what the line of discussion started from.

 

[andy1234]

No, but it does speak to the possibility that some races either because of their general format or else due to race day conditions, are more indicative of very specific racing strengths and perhaps not as much toward the prediction of future physiological capabilities, which is what the line of discussion started from.

7 hour races in grim conditions against the best riders in the world, are a pretty good indicator of physiological capabilities.

Mr Hog doesn't seem to want to discuss the race any more....

 

[thehog]

Armstrong just linked this article:

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/spor...rosecutor-jury-and-judge-lance-armstrong-case

USADA is a government program masquerading as a non-profit organization. This non-profit status allows it to investigate and prosecute athletes without affording them the constitutional and due process protections required of other federal agencies. This status also allows it to prosecute athletes with a lower burden of proof than the “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard that would have been required in the previous investigation by the USDOJ. Finally, it allows a situation where the same man, Mr. Travis T. Tygart is allowed to serve as Prosecutor, Jury and Judge in the investigation of Lance Armstrong.

Do I think Mr. Tygart has some kind of personal vendetta against Lance? My personal opinion is yes, but I also think actions sometime speak louder than words. The 2012 London Olympic Games are a little more than a month away. Mr. Tygart and his staff are responsible for testing all US athletes headed to the games. However, he has chosen to use the majority of his offices resources investigating whether a retired cyclist doped 16 years ago.

The investigation and sanctioning process at the USADA is unconscionable. The partiality of the prosecutor, the lack of due process for the accused, and the lack of an independent fact finder are completely at odds with our American system of justice and fairness.

In the words of Heinlein, “To give a man power without accountability is to establish a tyrant.”

 

[Deagol]

Armstrong just linked this article:

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/spor...rosecutor-jury-and-judge-lance-armstrong-case

USADA is a government program masquerading as a non-profit organization. This non-profit status allows it to investigate and prosecute athletes without affording them the constitutional and due process protections required of other federal agencies. This status also allows it to prosecute athletes with a lower burden of proof than the “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard that would have been required in the previous investigation by the USDOJ. Finally, it allows a situation where the same man, Mr. Travis T. Tygart is allowed to serve as Prosecutor, Jury and Judge in the investigation of Lance Armstrong.

Do I think Mr. Tygart has some kind of personal vendetta against Lance? My personal opinion is yes, but I also think actions sometime speak louder than words. The 2012 London Olympic Games are a little more than a month away. Mr. Tygart and his staff are responsible for testing all US athletes headed to the games. However, he has chosen to use the majority of his offices resources investigating whether a retired cyclist doped 16 years ago.

The investigation and sanctioning process at the USADA is unconscionable. The partiality of the prosecutor, the lack of due process for the accused, and the lack of an independent fact finder are completely at odds with our American system of justice and fairness.

In the words of Heinlein, “To give a man power without accountability is to establish a tyrant.”

Wow, read the comments section. Either this is a website for people with the guilibility of a 12 year old, or it is filled with paid schills, or... are we really that stupid ?

Some of you with more time/patience than I have should go there and refute.

 

[mastersracer]

I think your recollection is correct. Nevertheless he was there when it mattered in the race, which wasn't a given in the circumstance and at his age. He deserves a bit more credit for that effort.

Merckx famously said that Armstrong would never win the Tour based on his performances prior to 1996, so it's not like its a crazy position.

 

[Weapons of @ss Destruction]

7 hour races in grim conditions against the best riders in the world, are a pretty good indicator of physiological capabilities.

In the modern context, since 1993, how many WC or PR winners have also won a GT GC? You're welcome to include Armstrong on that list if you'd like - although the official status of that is subject to change.