USADA - Armstrong

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Polish

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Neworld said:
Mr. Polish,

Is it SSDD today?

Must say you're pretty quiet.

SCA, UCI, reopening of many old civil and corporate cases...nothing to talk about? Humm

I wonder if Lance will end up apologizing to Simieoni, Lemond, Kimmage, Emma O, M. Anderson, the pack fill, Landis, Hamilton...

Pretty quiet? Don't hate me because I'm pretty Mr Neworld.
Or hate me because I need to sleep yawn.
And yes, SSDD yesterday and SSDD today.

Reopening cases? SSDD
Simieoni, Lemond, Kimmage, Emma O, M. Anderson? SSDD
What else? SSDD

I will say the media did a good job of exposing the Spite and Malice with the USADA SSDD. USADA Spite and Malice combined with being cleared by the Feds - I have to admit even I am starting to doubt that Lance ever doped.
Makes sense you know.

BTW, CNN has been on for over an hour this morning in the Polish household - not a peep about Lance. Sandusky, the first perfect game since 1999, Egypt, other stuff. Spite and Malice is already yesterday's "news". SSDD.
 
Jul 12, 2010
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So 'splain a few things to me.

- Since USDA is not a legal court, if you lie to USDA investigation, can you still face perjury charges?

- Does the USDA have the authority to strip him of his tour titles or is that something that can only be done by (insert answer here).


- What power does USDA have in getting JB, Ferrari and the others to come to the US to testify?

-Assuming they are all found guilty, how does this conviction percolate to the other world governing bodies? Are the all bounded to sanction them too?
 
May 13, 2012
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spetsa said:
If LA chooses to contest this in front of the USADA, and witnesses are called to testify, does anyone know if the transcripts are made public?

On another note, I bet Dylan is busy boy this morning, making sure all google searches direct you to LA's response.

I don't know the process, but I hope there is a public hearing where all the witnesses are made to testify to what they and Armstrong did over the years.
 
Apr 9, 2009
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Fourier said:
A good read (that has nothing to do with LA directly) is "Three Cups of Deceit" by Jon Krakauer.
Maybe someone like Mr. Krakauer should take on the Livestrong story and see what comes out.
Edit: 60 minutes also did a story on this but I think that the 60 minutes piece on LA totally overlooked the aspect of the Foundation and Livestrong etc.

I read that, along with most of Krakauer's stuff. He would do an outstanding job on the Armstrong story. Maybe he could partner with Dan Coyle.

"Release the Krakauer!"
 
Feb 10, 2010
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Jagers said:
Sorry to burst your bubble, but I have no sympathy for Lance... I simply would like to reference the list I mentioned to a friend.

Just use the TdS example and Marion Jones' "never tested positive" and yet admits doping since she was a minor. You can check the sports Illustrated story again too but you won't find anything as direct as the USADA content.
 
May 27, 2010
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TechnicalDescent said:
I don't know the process, but I hope there is a public hearing where all the witnesses are made to testify to what they and Armstrong did over the years.

I thought the McConaughey stuff was off limits for this forum?

Dave.
 
May 27, 2010
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Scott SoCal said:
Anybody else looking forward to Betsy chiming in?:D

Sent her a note at zero hour, 5 pm EDT June 13th, but she was probably already inundated.

Dave.
 

Polish

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Scott SoCal said:
Anybody else looking forward to Betsy chiming in?:D

The Spite and Malice Train is already leaving the station. Kimmage made sure he jumped on right away - Betsy may miss the train if she doen't hurry up.
Chugga chugga choo choo. Don't be late! No worry about Greg. He can jump off the couch and catch the train - no problem.
 
Jul 24, 2009
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48 pages of posts already? Wow.

I prefer to focus on the issue from the what's good for cycling angle. Forget the fan boys. Forget the haters. Forget what you think of Lance Armstrong personally. I know that many here want to see Armstrong stripped of his 7 TdF wins.

My first thought there is simple: Then give them to whom? Every single podium finisher except one during Armstrong's TdF years has been suspended for doping or otherwise convincingly linked to doping scandals. Just to name one of them, Ullrich was 2nd to Armstrong three times. Should he be awarded 3 more TdF wins? How would that be justice?

Stripping Armstrong's titles would just mean passing the wins from one doper to another. Some want to see that anyway because of personal dislike, but what does that really accomplish?

Let the USADA have their case. Let them hand down a suspension or whatever if that's what their case concludes is appropriate. For pro cycling to go back and award the wins to someone else is pointless though. How far back should we go? Is there Indurain blood somewhere we could get tested for EPO? It's almost certainly in there.

The early to mid '90s through much of the 2000s was a dirty era in cycling, unfortunately, but the sport desperately needs to move on. Cycling has stricter testing and harsher penalties than I've heard of in any other sport. Good.
 
Jun 22, 2010
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MarkvW said:
Bob Roll is SUCH a neutral and disinterested 'analyst.'

LOL. I used to like Bob Roll, but as the years 'rolled,' i've tried to ignore him. One hand he claims to be neutral, but on the other he is trying his best to defend wonderboy and discredit other pros. Remember how he berated Ricco, Rasmussen and other riders that were kicked out of the tour in previous years? I don't have any links on that, but I do remember him on Versus ranting on about how the sport doesn't need such cheaters, blah, blah. I also remember him laughing at the French labs and media after Landis tested positive, then....not a peep from him. Anybody actually know what he now thinks of Landis, Hamilton, Andreu, Lemond?!? Sorry to steer away from the main topic, but as someone who has presented or help present cycling to N. American fans for the past 10 years, we should know what he thinks.
 

thehog

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Lance made front page of New York Post today with the headline: Drug Pedaler.
 
Feb 10, 2010
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Lajeretta4Ever said:
So 'splain a few things to me.

- Since USDA is not a legal court, if you lie to USDA investigation, can you still face perjury charges?

My limited understanding is the "legal duty" to tell the truth sets a target up for perjury if they are not telling the truth. Yes, maybe.

Lajeretta4Ever said:
- Does the USDA have the authority to strip him of his tour titles or is that something that can only be done by (insert answer here).
Yes. But it might not happen overnight. Contador's case took how many years? Will ASO honor an outcome where Wonderboy's titles are stripped? Probably.
Lajeretta4Ever said:
- What power does USDA have in getting JB, Ferrari and the others to come to the US to testify?

-Assuming they are all found guilty, how does this conviction percolate to the other world governing bodies? Are the all bounded to sanction them too?

Not sure for the rest. USADA has very limited power relative to law enforcement. Extradition is definitely not one of those powers. I think it is safe to say JB will not be coming to another Tour of California/Colorado.

In practice another official name and shame episode does little to nothing inside a sport like cycling and even higher up into the IOC. The IOC appears to be full of classy people like McQuaid and Verdruggen.
 
Jul 24, 2009
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Fourier said:
A good read (that has nothing to do with LA directly) is "Three Cups of Deceit" by Jon Krakauer.
Maybe someone like Mr. Krakauer should take on the Livestrong story and see what comes out.
Edit: 60 minutes also did a story on this but I think that the 60 minutes piece on LA totally overlooked the aspect of the Foundation and Livestrong etc.

Is there evidence that Armstrong has used his foundation/Livestrong for personal financial gain? Is there evidence that he has been responsible for most of the foundation's money not going toward its stated mission? I would be very interested to see it.

Krakauer is awesome.
 
A

Anonymous

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Polish said:
The Spite and Malice Train is already leaving the station. Kimmage made sure he jumped on right away - Betsy may miss the train if she doen't hurry up.
Chugga chugga choo choo. Don't be late! No worry about Greg. He can jump off the couch and catch the train - no problem.

Ouch. The truth does sting a bit. Like pulling off a band aid, grrr.

Yeoooowwwww... 1,2,3 RRRIIIIPPPPP. OWWWWWW.... <sniffle>
 
May 13, 2012
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patrick767 said:
48 pages of posts already? Wow.

I prefer to focus on the issue from the what's good for cycling angle. Forget the fan boys. Forget the haters. Forget what you think of Lance Armstrong personally. I know that many here want to see Armstrong stripped of his 7 TdF wins.
My first thought there is simple: Then give them to whom? Every single podium finisher except one during Armstrong's TdF years has been suspended for doping or otherwise convincingly linked to doping scandals. Just to name one of them, Ullrich was 2nd to Armstrong three times. Should he be awarded 3 more TdF wins? How would that be justice?

Stripping Armstrong's titles would just mean passing the wins from one doper to another. Some want to see that anyway because of personal dislike, but what does that really accomplish?

Let the USADA have their case. Let them hand down a suspension or whatever if that's what their case concludes is appropriate. For pro cycling to go back and award the wins to someone else is pointless though. How far back should we go? Is there Indurain blood somewhere we could get tested for EPO? It's almost certainly in there.

The early to mid '90s through much of the 2000s was a dirty era in cycling, unfortunately, but the sport desperately needs to move on. Cycling has stricter testing and harsher penalties than I've heard of in any other sport. Good.

Not just that, Race Radio says on twitter the criminal investigation should be reopened as well!

Very good points. This is exactly the I feel about it. I think this is what people who actually work in the sport, trying to make it clean, would feel about the situation as well. It's bonkers to go back and wipe out a whole set of tours and make one rider of the era out to be worse than anyone else.

Some of the more excited people should be careful what they wish for.
 
Jul 27, 2010
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Welcome back, DQ. Long time.


The next step in this process is to go before an independent review panel. Anyone know anything about this? Like, how big is the panel, who chooses the members, who is eligible to be chosen?

The USADA letter says that “assessing the weight of the evidence is not …part of the process of the Review Board.” Then what is the Board supposed to do? How can it decide whether the case should proceed to a hearing without considering the weight of the evidence? What other considerations would be relevant? If they decided against proceeding to a hearing, what would the rationale be if not the weight of the evidence?

Also, USADA says it has to redact the names of those charged from the written submission to the panel. I don’t understand this at all. Everyone connected with cycling knows at this point who those charged are. What is the point of blacking out their names?

Finally, I think we all should have learned a lesson from the federal investigation. Celebrations are premature. It ain’t over till it’s over. LA’s rep has taken another well-deserved hit, no matter what the outcome this is a step a lot of us have hoped for, but it’s not a slam dunk that he will lose some or all of this titles and/or be banned from Tri for life. This is pretty much uncharted territory, getting a rider sanctioned on the basis of witness testimony. The Leogrande case has some elements of a precedent, but there was a smoking gun there, it didn’t rely entirely on witnesses.

The evidence is almost entirely based on testimony of events that occurred seven or more years ago, by riders who in some cases have very little credibility. Of all the riders we have reason to think testified, Hincapie’s would probably be the most credible and valuable, but we don’t know what he said. There seems to be two general kinds of testimony: seeing LA administer drugs to himself or other riders, and hearing LA say that he was taking drugs. The latter is not very strong or convincing, and as those following the Roger Clemens case learned, testimony like that can later be weaseled out of to some extent.

One of the reasons I thought Contador had a weak case was because his lawyers introduced several arguments that were obviously extremely weak. If you have a strong case based on one particular line of evidence, you focus on that. But they used a scattershot approach, clearly hoping one of several different tactics would work. This showed me they didn’t have strong faith in any one approach.

USADA's is better in that respect, but it has some of the same approach. Most of their letter is about the witnesses, making it crystal clear that this is the heart of their case. They are focusing on that, which is what they should do. But they also mention the Saugy/EPO test evidence, even though Saugy has said categorically that he will never testify that that test was a positive. So that is basically useless evidence, except to the extent that it corroborates a picture of a doper. It’s padding, to make the case look like it is based on more than witness testimony, to make it look like they have an actual positive test.

Likewise with the 09-10 blood parameters. If they had a case against him for that, why didn’t they bring it earlier? Someone here said that they agreed to hold off until the federal investigation was complete. But that investigation began in May, 2010, almost a year after LA’s first TDF following retirement. If his blood values for that year were suspicious, a case should have been opened at the time. I think they fall into the same situation Contador’s did. They suggest the possibility of manipulation, but they are not sufficient by themselves to make a case. Ashenden has published research showing the passport can be beaten by transfuers who know what they’re doing. The greatest utility of the 09-10 blood values, I think, is that they allow the USADA the rationale for getting around the SOL on charges for earlier years. They want to make the case that LA continued to dope when he came out of retirment. But again, I doubt very much that this evidence rises to anywhere near what is needed for a positive test. Granted, all I have seen are LA’s published values. There may be more. But I wouldn't hold my breath.
 
Jul 27, 2010
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skippy said:
As i stated in " Skippyblogging " , if i were Lance i would send ALL his accusers a copy of " IF "!

Having won a 70.3 and podiumed several times there is nothing more to prove !

Lance walk away , head held high ! Certainly you are head and shoulders above the accusers and regardless of what you do , there will always be those " mushrooms " that reek of jealousy !

shrigley_rabbits.jpg
 

mastersracer

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The timing of Hincapie's retirement is interesting. If he is a central witness in the case, it's plausible that USADA informed him that the charges were about to be released as a courtesy, so Hincapie could announce his retirement before it got tangled up in this case. There are at least 10 teammates who testified, but Hincapie is likely the central focus. He's been around Armstrong forever and has no motives against Armstrong. If he came clean and told a highly detailed account of team involvement since before 1996, that's going to be devastating testimony.
 
May 13, 2012
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mastersracer said:
The timing of Hincapie's retirement is interesting. If he is a central witness in the case, it's plausible that USADA informed him that the charges were about to be released as a courtesy, so Hincapie could announce his retirement before it got tangled up in this case. There are at least 10 teammates who testified, but Hincapie is likely the central focus. He's been around Armstrong forever and has no motives against Armstrong. If he came clean and told a highly detailed account of team involvement since before 1996, that's going to be devastating testimony.

Indeed it would be. I agree the timing of his retirement is interesting.

I think Hincapie and all the witnesses should be made to testify in public to what he and Armstrong did. It should a) be a minimum requirement for taking away someone else's wins, b) help educate the public on the nature of the sport at the time so they can understand why pros and most fans still see the wins as credible in that context, even though they are anti doping, and c) Personally I think it would go down badly with the public that a bunch of guys are let off doing the same thing. Armstrong will make sure their reputations go down with his.

I think it could all drag on for years.
 
A

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LaFlorecita said:
Not a LA fan at all but this doesn't feel right.

Not trying to pick a fight... but AC being implicated in this is not out of the realm of possibility.

That would be a second strike.
 

Dr. Maserati

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patrick767 said:
48 pages of posts already? Wow.

I prefer to focus on the issue from the what's good for cycling angle. Forget the fan boys. Forget the haters. Forget what you think of Lance Armstrong personally. I know that many here want to see Armstrong stripped of his 7 TdF wins.

My first thought there is simple: Then give them to whom? Every single podium finisher except one during Armstrong's TdF years has been suspended for doping or otherwise convincingly linked to doping scandals. Just to name one of them, Ullrich was 2nd to Armstrong three times. Should he be awarded 3 more TdF wins? How would that be justice?

Stripping Armstrong's titles would just mean passing the wins from one doper to another. Some want to see that anyway because of personal dislike, but what does that really accomplish?

Let the USADA have their case. Let them hand down a suspension or whatever if that's what their case concludes is appropriate. For pro cycling to go back and award the wins to someone else is pointless though. How far back should we go? Is there Indurain blood somewhere we could get tested for EPO? It's almost certainly in there.

The early to mid '90s through much of the 2000s was a dirty era in cycling, unfortunately, but the sport desperately needs to move on. Cycling has stricter testing and harsher penalties than I've heard of in any other sport. Good.

Ok, I'll play.
You wish to focus on what good for cycling - and then go on to say Armstrong should not have his titles stripped .
Can you articulate why it would be good for cycling to allow this one rider (the one who benefited the most in what you describe as the dirty era) keep his wins?

As for who should get the wins - I would be impressed if you had chimed in with this when Landis or Contador were caught and had their wins removed - but as you say the era was dirty, then give it to no-one, they are worthless anyway.
Let it be reminder that what went on was meaningless - that is a perfect way for cycling to move on.
 
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