USADA - Armstrong

[WinterRider]

It was 13 out of 87, you both should brush up on your math.

The 1/2 refers to how many of the positives were from Lance's samples (6 of 13 were later tied to Lance). Just shows how much harder he was charging.

 

[JRTinMA]

This is correct. But remember that a) these were stored samples, subject to degradation that probably turned many positives into negatives; b) there were many borderline tests that had to be scored negative though they likely were positive. Ashenden noted that an additional two of LA's samples were almost certainly positive.

So 13/87 is probably a significant underestimate. The fraction is significantly lower than 6/13, which strongly suggests that there was less doping among the other riders tested, but the real proportion of positives was very likely much higher than this.

They were urine samples not blood, I would think urine would be more stable as there is nothing in the tube to absorb, like a separator. Although I don't know anything from a scientific base, just a guess.

If in 99 only stage winners samples were stored/reanalyzed as I believe the 87 samples were, doesn't that indicate an even lower percentage of positives? I think its safe to assume the dopers were winning, at least I hope they were or they were either bad dopers or bad riders.

 

[131313]

As far as the Tri stuff, Ironman should have a statement later today on his eligibility. It would be odd if they went against their written position.

What would be odd about it? WTC is a private corporation and Lance is what they view as a cash cow. They're going to let him race, of that there is little question in my mind. Their legal team is probably going over their written position right now, and they'll come out and say it was "too vague" or something like that, and in the "interest of fairness" they'll let him race.

There's a lot of pressure from the speedo community to let Lance race. I say give them what they want and let him race. It will, of course, de-legitimize a sport which doesn't really need more de-legitimizing...but whatever. I do feel badly for the current pros in that sport, but ultimately they're just pawns in a game that's targeted at middle-age crisis folks and is much more about profit than sport. The WTC caving on this will just smack them with that reality upside the head.

 

[Escarabajo]

Puerto took down Basso and Ulrich, but a lot of the Spanish riders associated with it walked...like the blood bag marked AC. A simple DNA test might have linked it to any rider with those intitials. It was never done.

Alberto Contador was called into court, but walked away from that one. Ulrich was not so lucky.

Contador was sanctioned later anyway. And still could be sanctioned based on whatever comes out from this investigation, so don’t worry.

 

[college]

lol pay no attention to this one's absurd claims. of course it equals legal precedent. now stop throwing your toys out of the playpen...

Please do not get personal Joe. After all you are a known felon a drug pusher. Someone who facilitated the cheating of many athletes correct? That is what the federal government said when they put you on house arrest.
You do not like my opinion regarding Lance? I happen to believe he is being chased after by a bunch of crooks at usada. Someone there does not like the fact that their own test results are negative. They have a hard on for Lance. Maybe they like the way he looks in a speedo. Who knows but that is the perception.

 

[straydog]

This is a good post, and you might be right. But note that USADA states:



If this is true—and we will have to wait to see how true it is—then they don’t need the pre-2004 evidence to corroborate. In fact, I think you have it backwards here. Your interpretation is that they need the pre-2004 evidence to make their case for 2004 and beyond. But if they have “substantial evidence” for 2004 and beyond, they don’t need it.

Then why do they mention it as corroborating evidence? In the letter, they put it the other way round, that pursuing the case for 2004 and beyond will allow them to bring in earlier evidence:



IOW, they will be allowed to use earlier evidence because it corroborates, not, as you imply, that they will be able to corroborate because they are allowed to use the earlier evidence. I think they are trying to use its relevance as a way of being able to extend the SOL. And they need some trick like this, because I agree with you that they may have trouble using the Hellebuyck precedent to get sanctions for pre-2004. But they don’t need the precedent to use the earlier evidence to add to the 2004 and beyond evidence. They are allowed to do that, at least they claim they can (lawyers feel free to step in here), regardless of the Hellebuyck decision.

By the way, given how crucial SOL is playing here, why did they wait for the federal investigation to play out before beginning their own? They could have written this letter, I’m pretty sure, a year ago, bringing 2003 within the SOL. I understand they wanted the fed investigation to finish first, but they must have realized the possibility that it would end up with no charges brought, and thus wasting one year of possible sanctions.

The wording is tellingly and deliberately unclear regarding eyewitnesses, I can hear those straws being clutched at....I honestly think that what will be discovered is as I said. They will try to use evidence pre 2004 to corroborate their assertion that LA was doping pre 2004 so therefore what they are accusing him off post 2004 must also be true. Either way, the very fact that they are going to try hang their whole case on "eyewitness" testimony isn't something that would be filling me with fear if I was LA. Emma O Reilly, Mike Anderson, both have admitted they never "saw" Armstrong doping, likewise the posties discussion on that training ride....never "saw" anything...only Floyd and Tyler say they witnessed actual doping, and since Tyler last rode with LA in 2001, I'd say that his testimony is going to be pretty hard to shoehorn in....so.....back to Floyd. The star witness.

 

[mewmewmew13]

good commentary here:

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/06/15/opinion/pearlman-lance-armstrong/index.html

yes it is a good commentary. Thanks mastersracer.

 

[Escarabajo]

Why would you micro dose when there was no test to catch you? With the exception of the tHct test which was very easy to pass with the smallest advanced warning. Only 8% of the the stage winners tested positive in 1999, and thats if you assume all of the other positives came from different riders. Since 6 of the 13 came from LA how likely is it the others were all single positives? Cycling may be filthy from top to bottom but it sure doesn't look like it was in 1999.

You did not address the HGH and other drugs.

And you are right about the midrodosing but the decay of the EPO in your body might act up as a microdose. Or not?

 

[college]

Then go ahead and read the charging letter.

While you are at it maybe brush up on what USADA actually is and charged with doing.

Funny the last time I checked usada were in charge of athlete testing. They are not a criminal court they are not part of any legal justice system in the United States. Maybe you should read up on it a little more?

usada's own testing system's never caught Lance. So now they have something that appears to be strong arm tactics to get people to talk?

Floyd Landis was found to be in violation of the doping controls at the Tour de France. Tyler Hamilton was busted in Spain. Neither one of those two have any credibility in a court so they have to get instant credibility at usada? That is funny.

 

[Benotti69]

<woof>

10 former team mates testified. I bet the other 8 shared yellow rose stories in the bus while transfusing together

Makes Floyd star shine brighter i would say.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Yes he is a complete idiot for coming back in 2010 and 2011 and keep doing what he was doing before. He should have stayed retired and none of this wouldhave happened.

Doesn't that make him a complete idiot for coming back after cancer and continuing to do what he was doing before?

 

[JA.Tri]

Please do not get personal Joe. After all you are a known felon a drug pusher. Someone who facilitated the cheating of many athletes correct? That is what the federal government said when they put you on house arrest.
You do not like my opinion regarding Lance? I happen to believe he is being chased after by a bunch of crooks at usada. Someone there does not like the fact that their own test results are negative. They have a hard on for Lance. Maybe they like the way he looks in a speedo. Who knows but that is the perception.

Your abuse of USADA seems to be based on sentiment. What evidence do you have to support your view?

 

[Escarabajo]

Doesn't that make him a complete idiot for coming back after cancer and continuing to do what he was doing before?

No. At that point he did not have anything to loose.

 

[DirtyWorks]

What would be odd about it? WTC is a private corporation and Lance is what they view as a cash cow. They're going to let him race, of that there is little question in my mind. Their legal team is probably going over their written position right now, and they'll come out and say it was "too vague" or something like that, and in the "interest of fairness" they'll let him race.

Lawyers will come up with something sounding more legitimate, but it will be the intellectual equivalent of the infamous ephemeral twin excuse.

It will, of course, de-legitimize a sport which doesn't really need more de-legitimizing...but whatever. I do feel badly for the current pros in that sport, but ultimately they're just pawns in a game that's targeted at middle-age crisis folks and is much more about profit than sport. The WTC caving on this will just smack them with that reality upside the head.

Why do you hate winning and capitalism?

 

[Anonymous]

Please do not get personal Joe. After all you are a known felon a drug pusher. Someone who facilitated the cheating of many athletes correct? That is what the federal government said when they put you on house arrest.
You do not like my opinion regarding Lance? I happen to believe he is being chased after by a bunch of crooks at usada. Someone there does not like the fact that their own test results are negative. They have a hard on for Lance. Maybe they like the way he looks in a speedo. Who knows but that is the perception.

On what do you base this opinion? Any info or evidence? Anything?



Didn't think so.

 

[Anonymous]

Funny the last time I checked usada were in charge of athlete testing. They are not a criminal court they are not part of any legal justice system in the United States. Maybe you should read up on it a little more?

usada's own testing system's never caught Lance. So now they have something that appears to be strong arm tactics to get people to talk?

Floyd Landis was found to be in violation of the doping controls at the Tour de France. Tyler Hamilton was busted in Spain. Neither one of those two have any credibility in a court so they have to get instant credibility at usada? That is funny.

Are these criminal proceedings? Is LA gonna go to jail?

 

[JA.Tri]

The wording is tellingly and deliberately unclear regarding eyewitnesses, I can hear those straws being clutched at....I honestly think that what will be discovered is as I said. They will try to use evidence pre 2004 to corroborate their assertion that LA was doping pre 2004 so therefore what they are accusing him off post 2004 must also be true. Either way, the very fact that they are going to try hang their whole case on "eyewitness" testimony isn't something that would be filling me with fear if I was LA. Emma O Reilly, Mike Anderson, both have admitted they never "saw" Armstrong doping, likewise the posties discussion on that training ride....never "saw" anything...only Floyd and Tyler say they witnessed actual doping, and since Tyler last rode with LA in 2001, I'd say that his testimony is going to be pretty hard to shoehorn in....so.....back to Floyd. The star witness.

I am guessing....yes big guess... Big George had more than a little to say and that would be telling (pun unintended).

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Funny the last time I checked usada were in charge of athlete testing. They are not a criminal court they are not part of any legal justice system in the United States. Maybe you should read up on it a little more?

usada's own testing system's never caught Lance. So now they have something that appears to be strong arm tactics to get people to talk?

Floyd Landis was found to be in violation of the doping controls at the Tour de France. Tyler Hamilton was busted in Spain. Neither one of those two have any credibility in a court so they have to get instant credibility at usada? That is funny.

If you acknowledge that USADA are not part of the criminal court why do you bring up legal precendent?
USADA get their rules from WADA, and when you sign your license you agree to abide by their rules.

 

[straydog]

I am guessing....yes big guess... Big George had more than a little to say and that would be telling (pun unintended).

And I suspect your big guess is about to bite you on the ***.

 

[JRTinMA]

You did not address the HGH and other drugs.

And you are right about the midrodosing but the decay of the EPO in your body might act up as a microdose. Or not?

I believe all other doping is kind of a joke compared to the oxygen vector drugs. Not meaning they shouldn't be controlled and positives punished, just the results can't be compared.

 

[Race Radio]

Please do not get personal Joe. After all you are a known felon a drug pusher. Someone who facilitated the cheating of many athletes correct? That is what the federal government said when they put you on house arrest.
You do not like my opinion regarding Lance? I happen to believe he is being chased after by a bunch of crooks at usada. Someone there does not like the fact that their own test results are negative. They have a hard on for Lance. Maybe they like the way he looks in a speedo. Who knows but that is the perception.

Ahhh, it is all a hater conspiracy.

Let me guess, it was all organised by French Nazi Frogmen?

 

[college]

Your abuse of USADA seems to be based on sentiment. What evidence do you have to support your view?

Also what other athlete are they trying to run down after 13 years? Abuse of usada? How is that possible? They work on us tax payer’s money.

They are like the post office.

"Do you know why we celebrate Independence Day on the 4th of July?
It was actually supposed to be celebrated on the 2nd of July.
But even back then, when the mail was delivered on horseback - the rider was two days late getting the Declaration to DC in time."

 

[VeloCity]

Please do not get personal Joe. After all you are a known felon a drug pusher. Someone who facilitated the cheating of many athletes correct? That is what the federal government said when they put you on house arrest.
You do not like my opinion regarding Lance? I happen to believe he is being chased after by a bunch of crooks at usada. Someone there does not like the fact that their own test results are negative. They have a hard on for Lance. Maybe they like the way he looks in a speedo. Who knows but that is the perception.

I don't think it's the USADA that has a hard on for Lance.

 

[Animal]

Please do not get personal Joe. After all you are a known felon a drug pusher. Someone who facilitated the cheating of many athletes correct? That is what the federal government said when they put you on house arrest.

Ah but it was a witch hunt. Waste of taxpayer's money. SHould have been left in the past. No victims. Everybody was doing it. Joe's a good guy, does a lot for charidee. etc etc ad nauseam when it's coming from the blinkered ones.

Fact is Joe didn't use these excuses. He owned up and came clean.

So what's your point?

 

[JA.Tri]

Also what other athlete are they trying to run down after 13 years? Abuse of usada? How is that possible? They work on us tax payer’s money.

They are like the post office.

"Do you know why we celebrate Independence Day on the 4th of July?
It was actually supposed to be celebrated on the 2nd of July.
But even back then, when the mail was delivered on horseback - the rider was two days late getting the Declaration to DC in time."

I don't regard that as evidence.