USADA - Armstrong

[thehog]

I know how to find the tests that USADA has done, but where can I find a total done by other entities. Because argueing with people that 500 tests are total BS is starting to annoy me.

Go back a few pages… we got to 120 and stopped dead. From all sources.

 

[Galic Ho]

Is this a surprise to anyone? I wrote about George, Levi, VDV, and Dave Z over a year ago.

Once again the clinic is far ahead of the media.

Nope. The ten have been known around here for a while.

All the Garmin members were mentioned. Christian Vande Velde. David Zabriskie. Jonathan Vaughters. It made sense given their stances on doping, their current history and stance about many doping related incidents over the past few years. Under subpoena, it's assumed they would talk.

LA's bigger team mates and closer buddies were Levi and George. Levi mysteriously left the confines of RSNT and hadn't been talking to LA or Bruyneel. Also had a major biff with Horner, one of the few loyal lap dogs. Then again Horner was on the same exact program Lance came back on. Made sense that Levi had talked. George is more questionable, but it also made sense. He's not a fool. Lance ain't worth a gaol term.

So that leaves five more. They are obvious names to some, others, no they aren't. We all know two talked earlier. They are:

Floyd Landis who got the whole thing running.

Tyler Hamilton. Followed Floyd and finally stopped lying.

I assume Frankie Andreu was on the list. The other two are older postal domestiques but I am not familiar enough with the teams composition at the time to slap names down.

Anyway, my point is these names are well known and have been linked to LA in the past many times. Kudos to them for fessing up and telling the truth.

And on another note. Yes I assumed a plea deal had been made with WADA. I also assumed it would kick in during the off season. It was bloody obvious. If they talked about doping during the Postal days, fine slap them down, but it's not less than what happened with Festina and those boys. Off season ban. If they talked and gave much needed information on the sinister and nasty doping systems that exist, then a deal needed to be arranged. Science only reveals so much and relying on the police/feds to physically catch people does work but it's rare. Confession is the most accurate and common methodology those protecting clean sport can rely on. It should always be taken seriously. Especially in cycling. If you need to ask why, you are in need of a serious dose of reality and a strong history lesson. If USADA needed to make a deal, that's what needed to be done. Benefits far outweigh the negatives.

BTW, anyone crying about dopers thus riding the TdF can bag it. Only the LA fanboys and media phonies who bought into the myth and sold their souls are crying. Everyone else knew this news a long time ago like RR stated. Let them race, let USADA do their job, go after the 5 punks they're in the process of biatch slapping and enjoy watching the Tour. The real monsters are the ones you're defending if you're crying and upset. Let it go and grow up.

 

[ManInFull]

I know how to find the tests that USADA has done, but where can I find a total done by other entities. Because argueing with people that 500 tests are total BS is starting to annoy me.

You are not going to win an argument with people who spout the "500 passed tests" mantra. You could point out that he tested positive at least once. And it was an official test during the Tour de France in 1999, where a backdated therapeutic use exemption certificate was produced after corticosteroids appeared in his sample.

 

[BroDeal]

Time: several months hence.

Headline: Lance alleges AC doped on numerous occasions "and I saw him do it".

Above I mentioned the potential for Contador to be drawn into this. I think it has a good liklihood of happening. The De Telegraaf story obviously came from Bruyneel. Not only does it make life hard for the witnesses, it also shows how they can disrupt the sport. Allegations against Contador could be used for the same purpose. Riders suspected of ratting on a current rider would face more trouble than those suspected of ratting on someone the sport wants to move beyond. An anonymous source saying that USADA witnesses have implicated Contador would, as Phil is so fond of saying, throw a cat amongst the pigeons.

It is a dangerous strategy because at some point everyone in cycling will realize that Armstrong and co. are intentionally harming the sport. He then moves to Ricco status, making him fair game. I dont think Armstrong cares one bit about cycling itself. All he cares about is maintaining his celebrity among the general public.

 

[mikkemus23]

Great article! RR?

Great answer to LA`s laughable facebook message to his sniffers

Why would Leipheimer, Hincapie, Vande Velde and Zabriske risk their careers and reputation by lying about Armstrong? Possibly because when you take the stand in a Federal investigation (remember this is where the evidence has been taken from) you tell the truth or risk prosecution yourself. They didnt make millions off LA, this isnt some vendetta, its not the french against LA because he won 7 TDFs and it is not a waste of money. LA has been basing his entire career on a lie, he has inspired millions by beating cancer and I can respect that, what I cant respect is the amount of money he has made for himself out of it, money that wont go into the Livestrong foundation but will allow him to live in a mansion, drive flash cars, live the high life and pay off all his past medical bills. LA isnt a hero, he is a corporation, someone who sold himself to make money, thank goodness he at least tried to cover up his blunders by doing something good for cancer or he would just be a complete ***.

+1

 

[DomesticDomestique]

Sorry, I still disagree that Armstrong is leaking info simply because he is an egotistical maniacal power hungry vindictive individual. I see Armstrong as being much more calculated in his actions. If he is leaking the info, there's something to be clearly gained from the leak other than harassing the would be witnesses.

Armanius,

If you think he is more calculated and composed in his actions vs. acting on a whim like the mentally ill ego-maniac that he is...

Please see @juanpelota twitter feed. That should clear that up for you

 

[BroDeal]

Go back a few pages… we got to 120 and stopped dead. From all sources.

This is why this mongo thread sucks. It is useless as a knowledge base. There should be separate threads about the 500 tests myth, the weight loss myth, the expected witnesses, etc.

 

[thehog]

Apprently everyone is a victim!

Let me be clear: the riders in question are also victims of @usantidoping's unfair process and antics. #unconstitutional

- Even Floyd?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Sorry, I still disagree that Armstrong is leaking info simply because he is an egotistical maniacal power hungry vindictive individual. I see Armstrong as being much more calculated in his actions. If he is leaking the info, there's something to be clearly gained from the leak other than harassing the would be witnesses.

Have you read his tweets from his account and his JuanPelota account?
Nothing 'calculated' about those.

 

[BroDeal]

Lance Armstrong on facebook:

"So let me get this straight....come in and tell USADA exactly what they wanted to hear in exchange for immunity, anonymity and the opportunity to continue to race the biggest event in cycling. This isn't about USADA wanting to clean up cycling rather its just plain ol' selective prosecution that reeks of vendetta"

http://www.facebook.com/lancearmstrong

The funny thing is that this statement is an implicit admission of doping. Selective prosecution is not a witch hunt. It is treating people differently than those who did the same thing.

 

[PedalPusher]

Sorry, I still disagree that Armstrong is leaking info simply because he is an egotistical maniacal power hungry vindictive individual. I see Armstrong as being much more calculated in his actions. If he is leaking the info, there's something to be clearly gained from the leak other than harassing the would be witnesses.

Then you really don't know Armstrong. His whole career he has shown these traits. And you have definitely never been around a sociopath.

The people he pays are calculated, Armstrong not so much. He will always be a bully and this is another example.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

This must be a set up out of the LA camp. Just a warning to everyone else who is considering leaking info to the ADA.

What interests me the most in this case is the USADA sees values in LA's blood from 2009 which would implie the use of doping. How in the hell did UCI not see this? Who covered it up at the UCI? Fat Pat? When LA goes down every single mtf who made him into what he supposedly became - the cancer survivor all American hero - should go down.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Then you really don't know Armstrong. His whole career he has shown these traits. And you have definitely never been around a sociopath.

The people he pays are calculated, Armstrong not so much. He will always be a bully and this is another example.

Bingo.
If you believe LA is cool & calculated then you have been listening to Phil & Paul or reading Sally Jenkins lies.

He is a bully without any normal moral compass which makes predicting what he does next quite difficult because most normal people could not do what he does.

 

[Armanius]

Armstrong is not an idiot. He's been navigating these waters and he knows how to sidestep a few mines. Giving a hard time to reluctant witnesses is hardly the way to sidestep the mines. It's more like stepping on them! That's why I think there's more to it than something as simple as Armstrong going psycho and can't helping himself from leaking info and writing delusional tweets.

 

[Digger]

Armstrong is not an idiot. He's been navigating these waters and he knows how to sidestep a few mines. Giving a hard time to reluctant witnesses is hardly the way to sidestep the mines. It's more like stepping on them! That's why I think there's more to it than something as simple as Armstrong going psycho and can't helping himself from leaking info and writing delusional tweets.

So confronting a witness in public toilets, thus risking being charged with witness intimidation by the Feds, is cool and collected?

 

[hiero2]

In terms of Armstrong and/or Bruyneel being the source of the leak to the Dutch newspaper, it makes sense to name only those riders currently still riding for the time being.

1) It will ruin their Tour, which is the point to such a well-timed leak.

2) They are going to spend time having to answer questions they don't want to answer and it will become a huge distraction for them.

3) It saves Armstrong the time/money it will take to harass these people himself. Now he has the press doing it for him.




Because he's a bully, and that's how bullies roll. They don't know any other way.

I just wanted to check in and see if it occurred to anyone else that the "leak" might have been an LA move. I see I am far from alone.

Good. Otherwise, the "leak" doesn't particularly make sense. The names are not news, except perhaps for Vaughters. The only bit that might be news is the suspensions. But that isn't how the news was played, so far as I see.

So a revenge motive is the only one that makes any sense when viewed from this far away. Of course, it could have been a drunk staffer getting laid by a crafty and ambitious reporter. That doesn't just happen in fiction. Ultimately, this doesn't matter that much, except as it disrupts the Tour for those named. And, since I always cheer for Georgie, I find that annoying.

Hincapeace - auummmmm.

 

[thehog]

I just wanted to check in and see if it occurred to anyone else that the "leak" might have been an LA move. I see I am far from alone.

Good. Otherwise, the "leak" doesn't particularly make sense. The names are not news, except perhaps for Vaughters. The only bit that might be news is the suspensions. But that isn't how the news was played, so far as I see.

So a revenge motive is the only one that makes any sense when viewed from this far away. Of course, it could have been a drunk staffer getting laid by a crafty and ambitious reporter. That doesn't just happen in fiction. Ultimately, this doesn't matter that much, except as it disrupts the Tour for those named. And, since I always cheer for Georgie, I find that annoying.

Hincapeace - auummmmm.

The story was simultaneously leaked to three European newspapers: De Telegraaf in Amsterdam, El País in Madrid and La Gazzetta dello Sport in Milan.

One of the reporters who wrote the stories confirmed that the source came from the United States, but would not disclose its identity.


“That article was essentially irresponsible,” Vaughters said. “There was not any source. That’s not my choice. That’s their decision (to publish the names).”

When contacted by VeloNews, UCI president Pat McQuaid deferred, saying cycling’s governing body would not publicly comment on the controversial case, which could see Armstrong stripped of his record seven yellow jerseys.

“Our last communiqué said, ‘UCI will not comment further,” McQuaid wrote in a message. “That remains the position.”

Another UCI official, speaking on background, said that USADA has not shared information concerning the Armstrong investigation with the UCI, making it impossible for the UCI to consider suspending any riders or staff members, the official said.


http://velonews.competitor.com/2012...ng-teammates-still-in-the-tour-for-now_227768

----- Sounds to me Armstrong has just p1ssed on entire peloton.

 

[MarkvW]

The story was simultaneously leaked to three European newspapers: De Telegraaf in Amsterdam, El País in Madrid and La Gazzetta dello Sport in Milan.

One of the reporters who wrote the stories confirmed that the source came from the United States, but would not disclose its identity.


“That article was essentially irresponsible,” Vaughters said. “There was not any source. That’s not my choice. That’s their decision (to publish the names).”

When contacted by VeloNews, UCI president Pat McQuaid deferred, saying cycling’s governing body would not publicly comment on the controversial case, which could see Armstrong stripped of his record seven yellow jerseys.

“Our last communiqué said, ‘UCI will not comment further,” McQuaid wrote in a message. “That remains the position.”

Another UCI official, speaking on background, said that USADA has not shared information concerning the Armstrong investigation with the UCI, making it impossible for the UCI to consider suspending any riders or staff members, the official said.


http://velonews.competitor.com/2012...ng-teammates-still-in-the-tour-for-now_227768

----- Sounds to me Armstrong has just p1ssed on entire peloton.

I can see Lance Armstrong as Lee J. Cobb's character. Yes, I can.

 

[python]

If it was Armstrong's camp responsible for the leak it might turn out yet another costly mistake. Some already mentioned why. That the specific named riders are most likely those who gave the evidence is hardly a surprise, the surprise. In fact, an average Joe will likely interpret the leak as: 'yeah it now it makes more sense that Armstrong doped do and his denials are bull.'

The key here, if Armstrong originated the leak, as I have already mentioned, is the reference to a 6-months suspension (vigorously denied by the targets).

We will have to see how things will have developed, but on my end I simply don't see how naming witnesses can benefit Armstrong's strategy...neither PR-wise nor legally.

That's why this saga, unlike the federal project, is likely to wrap up rather quickly - to deny Armstrong the spinning time, and of course b/c there is no viable defense on facts he can put up.

I expect the hearing panel's decision by early february

 

[PotentialPro]

Re: Leak

Or...
The "leak" was an attempt to go fishing. You release a few names, and see what bites. The lawyers then can prepare based on what is hooked.

 

[Iker_Baqueiro]

It seems Armstrong is shooting, from a high ground (in the military sense), to a lot of people, with complete impunity.

How can Armstrong be counter-attacked so he is brought down ?

 

[Armanius]

So confronting a witness in public toilets, thus risking being charged with witness intimidation by the Feds, is cool and collected?

You are missing my point. There's more to it than just simple intimidation. It's a matter of trying to figure out the "more" part of it.

I find it amusing that some truly think the reason behind the leaks is simply explained by Armstrong being an idiotic bully. Bullies can be calculating too.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

If it was Armstrong's camp responsible for the leak it might turn out yet another costly mistake. Some already mentioned why. That the specific named riders are most likely those who gave the evidence is hardly a surprise, the surprise. In fact, an average Joe will likely interpret the leak as: 'yeah it now it makes more sense that Armstrong doped do and his denials are bull.'

The key here, if Armstrong originated the leak, as I have already mentioned, is the reference to a 6-months suspension (vigorously denied by the targets).

We will have to see how things will have developed, but on my end I simply don't see how naming witnesses can benefit Armstrong's strategy...neither PR-wise nor legally.

That's why this saga, unlike the federal project, is likely to wrap up rather quickly - to deny Armstrong the spinning time, and of course b/c there is no viable defense on facts he can put up.

I expect the hearing panel's decision by early february

For what its worth Daniel Friebe on twitter (@friebos) said:
"So.. am reliably informed that De Telegraaf didn't get USADA story from from Bruyneel. Or Armstrong."


@Python - I agree that it would make little sense for LA (or JB) to make this info public, yet. As we have read today, it is hard for them to put a positive spin on it.

I think someone at the newspaper just pulled all the info together and made a nice story out of it - the names were easy to work out (and have proved correct) but the sanctions part appears to be wrong, at the moment.

 

[Armanius]

Re: Leak

Or...
The "leak" was an attempt to go fishing. You release a few names, and see what bites. The lawyers then can prepare based on what is hooked.

I can see that being a reason for the "leak."

 

[Armanius]

If it was Armstrong's camp responsible for the leak it might turn out yet another costly mistake. ...

We will have to see how things will have developed, but on my end I simply don't see how naming witnesses can benefit Armstrong's strategy...neither PR-wise nor legally ...

Agreed. That's why I don't think it's as easy as thinking that the leak was merely the act of a bully who is trying to intimidate and harass witnesses.