USADA - Armstrong

[TexPat]

Herman, no way.

That 80 page stuff could only have been written by Polish, to be fair one of the funnier posts he produced in recent times.

And yet Herman will get the last laugh as he bleeds LA's legal fund dry.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Herman, no way.

That 80 page stuff could only have been written by Polish, to be fair one of the funnier posts he produced in recent times.

Post of the day!

 

[MarkvW]

There are no due process protections in arbitration. The only way he has a due process claim is IF USADA is declared a state actor. Arbitration is a private action, and judges raaaarrreeellllyyyy remove arbitration proceedings into court.

Have you figured out how the Ted Stevens Act applies to USA Cycling in this instance?

I wasn't able to piece that together when I looked at it.

 

[python]

...........
1) He doesn't ask for the hearing - gets ban and loses titles.
2) He does ask for the hearing - gets ban and loses titles, plus people like George testify about his doping, and who-knows-what-else comes out in the process.

Seems like he's better off with option #1.

several hours ago i posted on dim's forum the same - that right now it looks like he will be sanctioned come the 14th of july...

but there is another option that was hardly entertained by anyone - he may opt, provided the usada agreed, to forgo the north american hearing and go directly to cas. this was btw offered to landis by usada...

i see this option for armstrong as the smartest move at the moment because he can get some time to crank up his federal case appeal whilst asking to combine his case with the other 2 usada accused defendants...

just thinking aloud...

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I realize that. By "err on the side of due process caution", I meant that the judge would say such grave, sweeping charges, with grave, sweeping consequences require the protection of due process found in a court of law; ergo, no arbitration.

He isn't the first person to claim arbitration is unfair because of the process not conforming to constitutional standards for court proceedings...and the courts have been pretty clear on their opinion of that argument...they rule in favor of arbitration. And Mr. Armstrong seems to think that because he is rich, and because the number of zeroes after his net worth are greater than most, the judge will tend to believe his suggestion that HIS due process claims are much more vital. From reading the judge's initial dismissal, I am unconvinced he will give that argument much weight. Juries may be swayed by attorneys putting on a Chewbacca Defense, but judges are much more critical.

Then again, trying to figure out a court's ruling prior to them ruling is always a dodgy proposition. You just never know.

 

[Epicycle]

The ball is in USADA's court. If he doesn't fight it then they decide how this will be framed. Is there any way he can admit now and have USADA let up on him a little? If not, it's going to be extreeeemely nasty for him. USADA doesn't have to put out the same kind of press release they did for Ferrari, del Moral and Marti. USADA can go into much greater detail about Lance if they want to. They can brutalize him with details about drug trafficking, pressuring other riders, cover-ups, etc....

I also think it would be tremendously hard for him to accept the possibility of staying away from doping-controlled competitive endurance sports forever, either as an athlete or as management. He's already shown since he first retired in 2005 that he can't stay away from it. And then with the possible financial blowback...I wouldn't be surprised if he hasn't really made up his mind about what he's going to do yet and is just living from one step to the next right now. He's going to have to make a decision soon enough and my guess is that he'll push on with a hearing after the judge denies him a stay because he'll still be grasping at that illusion of control.

 

[Krebs cycle]

Too much money hanging in front of Ferrari. He still works with some riders. Also, if he admitted guilt he may face fines of some sort. Who wouldn't want a Ferrari?

You're right, a "lifetime ban" isn't really a deterrent. I know it opens a massive can of ethical worms but it would be helpful if doctors faced some sort of penalty that affects their livelihood in some way eg: disbarment by the medical profession. In that case if they get caught "working" with an athlete they cannot even use the defense that it was routine medical services since they wouldn't even be allowed to practice medicine any longer, hence thereafter they would face a more serious criminal charge.

 

[TexPat]

several hours ago i posted on dim's forum the same - that right now it looks like he will be sanctioned come the 14th of july...

but there is another option that was hardly entertained by anyone - he may opt, provided the usada agreed, to forgo the north american hearing and go directly to cas. this was btw offered to landis by usada...

i see this option for armstrong as the smartest move at the moment because he can get some time to crank up his federal case appeal whilst asking to combine his case with the other 2 usada accused defendants...

just thinking aloud...

Shhh! He might be reading. Don't want to help them, now do we?

 

[PotentialPro]

Hmmm, if the CAS route is an option, and he goes that way, does he still have the ability to perjure himself?

 

[Ninety5rpm]

He isn't the first person to claim arbitration is unfair because of the process not conforming to constitutional standards for court proceedings...and the courts have been pretty clear on their opinion of that argument...they rule in favor of arbitration. And Mr. Armstrong seems to think that because he is rich, and because the number of zeroes after his net worth are greater than most, the judge will tend to believe his suggestion that HIS due process claims are much more vital.

Brilliant!

 

[Fatclimber]

There is one item of great relevance contained within the initial submittal of idiocy that everyone seems to be overlooking: Who were the 3 people that beat LA in the 1500 when he was 12?

I can only assume that they were attempting to show his early potential (who knows what the heck for) so it would be interesting to find out "where are they now" and see what caliber of athlete he was beaten by.

 

[thehog]

Put your Lance BS detector back on please! You are being baffled by BS!

Anyone can state anything in a pleading, but you better support it with some type of authority even if secondary! It doesn't take much investigation to see that USADA has authority over him during the years in question and they have a right to arbitrate even on a non-analytical finding of doping.

When you sign your license, it has an arbitration agreement, it doesn't say only positive findings of doping. It's all doping related matters. So in essence, going by Lance's logic he could have been trafficking in doping products, but hey, he wasn't tested positive.

All matters of doping are adjudicated through arbitration per the license holder agreement with the issuer. With appeals going to CAS for final decision.

Exactly. Just for ****s and grins say Armstromg was innocent.

He'd go for an open trial and tear apart the obvious coulision between the witnesses and USADA. If he still lost go to CAS then Federal.

Because of the lack of a positive test and if he were innocent he'd have a very good chance of winning the case if public.

He wouldn't need to go down the Federal route now.

No judge is going to give an injunction or debunk the arbritration process before its even occurred.

 

[Iker_Baqueiro]

Bruyneel, who sat out of the Tour this year, also has until Saturday to respond, the antidoping agency said, but Celaya has asked to go directly to arbitration.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/11/s...of-lance-armstrong-receive-lifetime-bans.html

 

[PedalPusher]

I realize that. By "err on the side of due process caution", I meant that the judge would say such grave, sweeping charges, with grave, sweeping consequences require the protection of due process found in a court of law; ergo, no arbitration.

Yeah, that's way far reaching, not to be argumentative. But why go to such a long stretch?

It is very simple. This could only happen if the judge agrees that the USADA is a state actor OR USADA has no jurisdiction. Outside of that, there are no grave circumstances that warrant constitutional protections of due process. It is normal outcomes of the arbitration process. (see: Marion Jones, Tammy Thomas)

If you go back a few pages you will see my explanation of due process as it applies to arbitration.

This agreement would have to be so specious with Lance, meaning it was different than every other professional athlete who signs their license agreement which contains the arbitration clause.

The mountains he would have to jump to get a judge to go against years of precedent on arbitration proceedings is well, bigger than anything he has ever climbed. There are some very small outs, but that relies on the judge making several adverse rulings on diversity jurisdiction...don't see it happening.


He may order a very temporary injunction to hear more on the merits of the pleading from both sides, but more than likely come back to USADA and force an arbitration decision from Lance. Either go or don't and take whatever sanction that is meted out.

 

[PotentialPro]

I realize that. By "err on the side of due process caution", I meant that the judge would say such grave, sweeping charges, with grave, sweeping consequences require the protection of due process found in a court of law; ergo, no arbitration.

I believe it is a rare act that a judge on this level would muddy the waters and try to take apart the USADA. There would have to be far better reasoning to wade in, and begin that action.

 

[PedalPusher]

There is one item of great relevance contained within the initial submittal of idiocy that everyone seems to be overlooking: Who were the 3 people that beat LA in the 1500 when he was 12?

Now that was funny! Spit my drink out!

 

[PedalPusher]

Page 5 of current UCI ADR. He's f***ed. #2

 

[DomesticDomestique]

Bruyneel, who sat out of the Tour this year, also has until Saturday to respond, the antidoping agency said, but Celaya has asked to go directly to arbitration.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/11/s...of-lance-armstrong-receive-lifetime-bans.html

This is HUGE, if Celaya is going to arbitration, then all the testimony is going to become public anyway. So the idea that he has the option to get stripped and banned vs. stripped, banned and publicly humiliated is no longer valid. The Celaya arb is going to humiliate him either way. Thank you Mr. Celaya!!!

 

[python]

Shhh! He might be reading. Don't want to help them, now do we?

i think the usada counsel had thought through this scenario already and would be disinclined to provide armstrong with straws to grasp at.

but i had to put this option out there because it's not been entertained and is part of the fun.

whichever road armstrong goes, he has to be found guilty based on the objective analysis, but he has to play less arrogantly and smarter if he wants to save ANYTHING.

 

[Random Direction]

Probably the most interesting thing (assuming he does fight) would be how many fires he starts on the way, and people he places on the pyres those fires are beneath, because he has shown every willingness to slander and slur thus far. This has the possibility to be very cathartic for the sport if he contests.

Any over/under on Lance taking out Fat Pat? For that matter, do the British bookies have any odds on Lance's demise or success?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

There is one item of great relevance contained within the initial submittal of idiocy that everyone seems to be overlooking: Who were the 3 people that beat LA in the 1500 when he was 12?

I can only assume that they were attempting to show his early potential (who knows what the heck for) so it would be interesting to find out "where are they now" and see what caliber of athlete he was beaten by.

I was wondering was it a subtle hint to assist USADA in finding the real dopers.

The good news is that because he didn't get a medal it wont get stripped from him.

 

[Berzin]

Bruyneel, who sat out of the Tour this year, also has until Saturday to respond, the antidoping agency said, but Celaya has asked to go directly to arbitration.

Who is this Celaya character? I don't recall his name being attached to the original USADA charging document. I thought it was only five people-Armstrong, Bruyneel, Ferrari, del Moral and Marti.

When and where did this other guys' name pop up?

 

[Random Direction]

There is one item of great relevance contained within the initial submittal of idiocy that everyone seems to be overlooking: Who were the 3 people that beat LA in the 1500 when he was 12?

I can only assume that they were attempting to show his early potential (who knows what the heck for) so it would be interesting to find out "where are they now" and see what caliber of athlete he was beaten by.

Avatar bet to whoever finds this out.

 

[BroDeal]

I found this on Beginner Triathlete. I LOLed.

Not saying he's right or wrong here, but he was getting his teeth kicked in on all television stations, and other news outlets saying "USADA files doping charges against Armstrong." Then the Dutch paper has an article citing a leak that 5 former teamates are going to testify against him in return for leniency on the fact that they also doped. It was bad enough that one of the DJ's on a Christian radio station down here was saying people should cut-up the yellow bracelets.

Jeebus! Even the Bible thumpers are going after him.

 

[thehog]

There is one item of great relevance contained within the initial submittal of idiocy that everyone seems to be overlooking: Who were the 3 people that beat LA in the 1500 when he was 12?

I can only assume that they were attempting to show his early potential (who knows what the heck for) so it would be interesting to find out "where are they now" and see what caliber of athlete he was beaten by.

The kid who got 5th has filed a Federal case and wants his 4th place #unconstitutional