USADA - Armstrong

[TubularBills]

My guess is that Lancey-poo tried to line up an A-list political ally, but this clown was all he could get.

Agreed, and isn't this all starting to look look like desperation?

And once the majority start to sense it, doesn't it become a lost cause?

Shouldn't 'Allies' start running towards defensible silos...

i.e. Armstrong, 'never heard of him'.

Lost cause.

I don't understand what they have to gain? Unless Trek threatened to move the company to another state?

Pathetic.

 

[BroDeal]

Think O.J. Think Dream Team. If O.J. can get away with double murder, surely Armstrong, 7-time Tour winner and full-time cancer fighter, can get away with a little doping.

Besides, it's either take your chances with a jury, or take your chances with Tygart and no due process. Which would you pick, if you were Armstrong?

There is a big difference. Armstrong values his celebrity status as much as his sporting accomplishments. His reputation won't survive disclosure of the nastier elements of his behavior.

 

[Maxiton]

There is a big difference. Armstrong values his celebrity status as much as his sporting accomplishments. His reputation won't survive disclosure of the nastier elements of his behavior.

Maybe so. But I'm sure he feels he's capable of sorting that once he's out of legal jeopardy. And, anyway, he's smart enough to cut his loses: better to be rich and disreputable and free, than broke and disreputable and incarcerated.

 

[GreasyMonkey]

E-mails going out.

The mail I am sending to the various members of the UCI, and shall do similarly with WADA (change of references, to the WADA press release).

Remind them of the precedent that they set for themselves last year.....

Dear Sir/Ma’am,

In the interests of fairness and following the precedent which the President of Cycliste Union Internationale (UCI) established through the press in the report dated 25/03/2011 (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mcquaid-spanish-poltical-pressure-made-contador-appeal-necessary),

I trust that the Executive Management of the UCI shall pursue the alleged actions of the former professional cyclist, Lance Armstrong with the same vigour, following the public intervention & support of the accused by a politician (http://sensenbrenner.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=303025) during the process(es) of the current USADA action(s) against the said former professional cyclist, Lance Armstrong.


Best Regards,
XXXXXXX

 

[Northern rider]

This just in ;

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-usada-has-38-armstrong-blood-samples-from-2008-to-2012

38 samples in the fridge, and 10+ witnesses. Not looking good for Mono-nut. He'd better hope he can find some Nobel Prize winning chemists to explain the results of the tests.

 

[HL2037]

http://laphamsquarterly.org/visual/charts-graphs/?page=153

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Alright peeps, let's fast forward for a sec and assume LA is going to be stripped of all seven TDF titles. Take a look at this chart from Bicycling Australia Magazine:

Are we going to witch hunt every rider on this list to establish whether they were doped at the time? Everyone was doped at the time which is undeniable fact. There's more riders in this chart associated with some form of doping activity than not.

For the good of this sport please let sleeping dogs lie.

...uh....no

Simple solution that you fanboys seem to miss: Just vacate the titles and don't give them to anyone...because you seem to miss something else very important from that chart: Most of the guys on there have already been "witch hunted."

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Yes, I'm sure they were careful to do that. It doesn't alter the fact that reportedly USADA personnel have been accompanying DOJ investigators, FBI agents, IRS agents, and who knows who all, all over the country and even to Europe, as they investigated, examined, deposed, etc.

Had the DOJ done its job and prosecuted first, then this would not have been an issue for USADA in its actions. Since they (or someone) decided to have USADA go first, though, it becomes a problem, because very likely it has entitled LA to due process.

Just understand that there is simply an argument that those actions make them a state actor, and that there are VERY persuasive arguments that they are not, nor are their actions in this case unique. I think your characterization that Lance is "very likely" to win this argument is a bit optimistic considering the precedent favors the USADA and not Armstrong. I think you have chosen a position for the sake of argument, and not because you fully understand the issue.

Certainly, a judge could find for Armstrong because nothing is ever certain when it goes before a judge, but I assure you that there are many things about this that you and me and everyone else is overlooking and/or don't have the evidence to assert. Because of that, to suggest that it is "very likely" that the judge will rule anything is simply not realistic, nor informed.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

The thing is, all the info I have about USADA and its relationship with the DOJ I got right here in the Clinic. When everyone assumed that DOJ was going to indict, the talk ran freely here of USADA accompanying various government agents around the world (as "interested observers"). It was only after DOJ (or one of its offices) dropped the case that talk turned to USADA arbitration.

Because of the way equal protection, due process, and so on work (until Senator Fatso and his friends finish rescinding the constitution, anyway), as I understand them, is that our right to them is inviolable. If there is the possibility they have been tainted or compromised by, say, a too-cozy relationship between state and private actor, then the benefit of the doubt must go to the claimant. And I wouldn't have it any other way because, in this regard, his rights are my rights.

No, no it isn't. When you sign something that has an arbitration agreement in it, (and I assure you that you do this many times more each year than you know) courts ROUTINELY find that you have to arbitrate, and there is NO right to the same facets of due process inherent in court proceedings. I think you have cherry picked the information you are using and ignored many things that suggest your position is not nearly as strong as you present.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Yes.




Think O.J. Think Dream Team. If O.J. can get away with double murder, surely Armstrong, 7-time Tour winner and full-time cancer fighter, can get away with a little doping.

Besides, it's either take your chances with a jury, or take your chances with Tygart and no due process. Which would you pick, if you were Armstrong?

Again, you characterize something in a way that favors your argument, but is not in the least bit accurate. Lance does have rights and privileges within the arbitration that serve as "due process" for that type of proceeding. No, they may not be the same as he would have in court, but it is an Armstrong lie that he has no recourse and must just sit idly by as he is railroaded to his end. He is provided an ability to defend himself against the facts and witnesses lined up against him. Period.

 

[MarkvW]

The 30 day extension was definitely a tactical PR move. Helping Lance burn more of his money was just a pleasant side effect for the haters, but the main purpose for it was as a public relations move to show that USADA is going out of its way to treat Lance fairly before they bust his ***.

The continuance was nothing unusual.

 

[sniper]

http://www.spiegel.de/sport/sonst/d...ger-lance-armstrong-unter-druck-a-844175.html

Jetzt jedoch machen sie sich auch in den USA an die Demontage ihres Top-Sportlers Armstrong - und sie tun es mit einer Radikalität und Konsequenz, die selbst Anti-Doping-Experten in Deutschland erstaunt.

"Now the Americans themselves are dedicated to dismantling Armstrong -- and they're doing it with a radicality and consistency that surprises even German anti-doping experts".

 

[MarkvW]

Alright peeps, let's fast forward for a sec and assume LA is going to be stripped of all seven TDF titles. Take a look at this chart from Bicycling Australia Magazine:

Are we going to witch hunt every rider on this list to establish whether they were doped at the time? Everyone was doped at the time which is undeniable fact. There's more riders in this chart associated with some form of doping activity than not.

For the good of this sport please let sleeping dogs lie.

Look at the blood value information that is now out. The UCI let that stuff slide???????? The dogs are not asleep.

 

[Deagol]

That started 12 years ago for me.

I've never owned a Trek (and certainly never will). I used to have some Oakley stuff, but never will again. I had a Giro helmet, and never will again (their customer service SUCKED anyway). I will never buy anything Nike.

My wife went to buy ski goggles and I steered her away from Oakley. She also bought a road bike and I steered her away from Trek. Heck, we won't even consider Honey Stinger or anything else we know he is connected with. And, FWIW, I will do what I can when freinds/family ask me for advice on these types of purchasing decisions in the future. You know how it works, if freinds or co-workers consider a bike related purchase, they ask the person they know is a cyclist for advice.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

Alright peeps, let's fast forward for a sec and assume LA is going to be stripped of all seven TDF titles. Take a look at this chart from Bicycling Australia Magazine:

Are we going to witch hunt every rider on this list to establish whether they were doped at the time? Everyone was doped at the time which is undeniable fact. There's more riders in this chart associated with some form of doping activity than not.

For the good of this sport please let sleeping dogs lie.

There really needs to be away to size those images so I don't have to scroll horizontally.

It's the evryone does it excuse. So are you stipulating to the fact that he is a liar cheat and fraud?

I for one just want the truth to come out, even if the truth is that he is clean as the wind driven snow.

The groupies just want to stick their head further and further into the sand and keep on living in fantasy land. I know how painful this can be. Sooner or later we all have to accept the fact that all those penthouse forum letters aren't real. It would be nice if those things happened but they don't. It would be nice if we had a sports legend worthy of the worship that Lance holds himself out to be, but in this case we have a bully, a narcissist, a doper a liar and a cheat masquerading as one.

Dear Penthouse forum: You're not going to believe this but every word of it is true, I ride bicycles for a large european bike team sponsored by a Postal Service. I am a middle of the road one day classics specialist, but then I got cancer and everything changed...

 

[Berzin]

The main issue I have with the 30-day extension is it buys Armstrong and his legal team time to "influence" whatever judge his lawsuit goes in front of.

If the USDA gets hamstrung in court then it pretty much makes them incapable of doing their job going forward, because every single cyclist will be able to use the ruling as a precedent to keep them from being investigated.

 

[Cerberus]

The main issue I have with the 30-day extension is it buys Armstrong and his legal team time to "influence" whatever judge his lawsuit goes in front of.

The Honourable Sam Sparks seems fairly resistant to Armstrongs influence:

“This Court is not inclined to indulge Armstrong's desire for publicity, self-aggrandizement, or vilification of Defendants”

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...d-re-file-with-substantial-modifications.aspx

 

[MarkvW]

The main issue I have with the 30-day extension is it buys Armstrong and his legal team time to "influence" whatever judge his lawsuit goes in front of.

If the USDA gets hamstrung in court then it pretty much makes them incapable of doing their job going forward, because every single cyclist will be able to use the ruling as a precedent to keep them from being investigated.

There's no indication that the Judge is open to "influence." All indications are quite to the contrary.

 

[Deagol]

... The press is noting a possible connection with Trek. ....

Is there a link for this, perhaps it is in something I already read, but glanced over? Thanks ....

 

[aphronesis]

There really needs to be away to size those images so I don't have to scroll horizontally.

It's the evryone does it excuse. So are you stipulating to the fact that he is a liar cheat and fraud?

I for one just want the truth to come out, even if the truth is that he is clean as the wind driven snow.

The groupies just want to stick their head further and further into the sand and keep on living in fantasy land. I know how painful this can be. Sooner or later we all have to accept the fact that all those penthouse forum letters aren't real. It would be nice if those things happened but they don't. It would be nice if we had a sports legend worthy of the worship that Lance holds himself out to be, but in this case we have a bully, a narcissist, a doper a liar and a cheat masquerading as one.

Dear Penthouse forum: You're not going to believe this but every word of it is true, I ride bicycles for a large european bike team sponsored by a Postal Service. I am a middle of the road one day classics specialist, but then I got cancer and everything changed...

I'll pose a question here, because there's been a truism assumed lately that's repeated across lines, whether it's the "haters" the "professional" legal experts, the long time cycling stalwarts or the scientifically inclined (obviously these categories can cross and do): what is this "truth" you want revealed? And spare the bombastic fraud bits, that's been covered for three years running now.

More importantly: who is this truth to be revealed to? Who is addressed to? What, exactly, is it going to do for those clamoring that the truth be revealed? Will it be psychic reparation from the media reality that foisted this falsity upon you? Will it be seeing cancer "victims," stop accepting sound bite maxims and redirect their lives in such a way that they don't invite cancer in the first place? Will it be a final cessation to seeing the sport you "love" no longer overcoded with crap product endoresments?

And yes, again, there's at least a good one, two, maybe three dozen people (let's leave aside SCA, hey, they're an insurance company), who will find themselves vindicated by this "truth," but do you think it will drop from the ether like an epiphany and radically supercharge and alter their lives?

This so-called truth has already been out there since the mid nineties and anyone hanging "hope" on its revelation is already an active or begrudging participant in the mechanisms that let it flourish.

Off, but related topic: I don't see hardly any (there are a couple) of the US based detractors masticating this topic showing up in the Tour and Sky threads.

That in itself speaks its own volumes.

 

[Jeremiah]

the key

There really needs to be away to size those images so I don't have to scroll horizontally.

It's the evryone does it excuse. So are you stipulating to the fact that he is a liar cheat and fraud?

I for one just want the truth to come out, even if the truth is that he is clean as the wind driven snow.

The groupies just want to stick their head further and further into the sand and keep on living in fantasy land. I know how painful this can be. Sooner or later we all have to accept the fact that all those penthouse forum letters aren't real. It would be nice if those things happened but they don't. It would be nice if we had a sports legend worthy of the worship that Lance holds himself out to be, but in this case we have a bully, a narcissist, a doper a liar and a cheat masquerading as one.

Dear Penthouse forum: You're not going to believe this but every word of it is true, I ride bicycles for a large european bike team sponsored by a Postal Service. I am a middle of the road one day classics specialist, but then I got cancer and everything changed...

They did come up with some amazing scenarios!

Armstrong took his cue from them with the bike. Bike pron, envy, money, living on your own terms, hookers, strippers, drugs, alcohol,lap dances, reckless driving, private jets, intoxicating views from mountaintops! Aspen, Cabo, Caribbean, French Riviera, Bono! Lovett, motorcycles, rock stars, presidents, power....he's an excellent father too!

What an irresistable brew he has concocted for fantasy!

 

[thehog]

They did come up with some amazing scenarios!

Armstrong took his cue from them with the bike. Bike pron, envy, money, living on your own terms, hookers, strippers, drugs, alcohol,lap dances, reckless driving, private jets, intoxicating views from mountaintops! Aspen, Cabo, Caribbean, French Riviera, Bono! Lovett, motorcycles, rock stars, presidents, power....he's an excellent father too!

What an irresistable brew he has concocted for fantasy!

Yes I want to hear what happens next in this letter to Penthouse!

 

[Microchip]

The main issue I have with the 30-day extension is it buys Armstrong and his legal team time to "influence" whatever judge his lawsuit goes in front of.

If the USDA gets hamstrung in court then it pretty much makes them incapable of doing their job going forward, because every single cyclist will be able to use the ruling as a precedent to keep them from being investigated.

This was my exact thought. However, reading the Forum this morning showed me a different light. It seems to me that USADA is keeping on their toes with this. They are publicly replying to the misconceptions that are being put out. So Ferrari claims he wasn't notified and it gets answered publicly and provides the tiniest detail, such as, that he was having dinner with his wife when the messenger gave him the letter.

The congressmen chirps an off-key tune and they invite him to come and find out the facts. This is very heartening. They're not following a code of silence up to the date in August.

Now, the blood values are in the public domain. The New York Daily News is also helping to dismantle the misconceptions.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

I'll pose a question here, because there's been a truism assumed lately that's repeated across lines, whether it's the "haters" the "professional" legal experts, the long time cycling stalwarts or the scientifically inclined (obviously these categories can cross and do): what is this "truth" you want revealed? And spare the bombastic fraud bits, that's been covered for three years running now.

More importantly: who is this truth to be revealed to? Who is addressed to? +

[snipped]

I think I mentioned it in there but apologize if it wasn't highlighted in the comments sufficiently. Whatever the truth is has always been good enough for me. I think it's fairly obvious where I stand but I also was once a huge fan of his and if he is clean based on the truthful testimony of everyone that the USADA has lined up to testify and all of their evidence then he is clean and I am wrong in my present assumption.

I have no problem with being wrong if that is what you are implying. The truth is the truth, his supporters are doing everything in their power to suppress it.

If he is clean, why would you? Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Hog, RR, Alpe & all the other legal experts here:

What if.... What if Armstrong blocks this case in the USA (where brutally u*** friends like Sensenbrenner help him out)? Can WADA charge him in europe? Like france (which, of course, would be the best place to be).

I guess there are more guys like me who don´t know US-Law, and are really feared that Teflon Pharmstrong prevails again (like in the corrupted Birotte case).