USADA - Armstrong

[aphronesis]

I think I mentioned it in there but apologize if it wasn't highlighted in the comments sufficiently. Whatever the truth is has always been good enough for me. I think it's fairly obvious where I stand but I also was once a huge fan of his and if he is clean based on the truthful testimony of everyone that the USADA has lined up to testify and all of their evidence then he is clean and I am wrong in my present assumption.

I have no problem with being wrong if that is what you are implying. The truth is the truth, his supporters are doing everything in their power to suppress it.

If he is clean, why would you? Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

I am not implying that you are wrong. Far from it. I am suggesting that "truth" is not....relative, say, but a condition of its definitions: be it a context of media, juridical findings, emotional attachments, monetary reward, public visibility etc.

Therefore I would suggest that the truth is a balance sheet, not an absolute, and that the "truth" about LA already resides with all those for whom it matters. Few will be affected by the qui tam for example. Sure, Floyd might be buying drinks for a few members here, but that's trickle down capital not truth.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Hog, RR, Alpe & all the other legal experts here:

What if.... What if Armstrong blocks this case in the USA (where brutally u*** friends like Sensenbrenner help him out)? Can WADA charge him in europe? Like france (which, of course, would be the best place to be).

I guess there are more guys like me who don´t know US-Law, and are really feared that Teflon Pharmstrong prevails again (like in the corrupted Birotte case).

Sensenbrenner has no jurisdiction. I would expect that Team Armstrong has hired some lobbyists to get the ear of some of those in Congress. I doubt USADA will be even slightly surprised by this. Everyone could see this coming from miles away.

 

[ManInFull]

Dear Penthouse forum: You're not going to believe this but every word of it is true, I ride bicycles for a large european bike team sponsored by a Postal Service. I am a middle of the road one day classics specialist, but then I got cancer and everything changed...

Absolutely hilarious!

 

[Race Radio]

Hog, RR, Alpe & all the other legal experts here:

What if.... What if Armstrong blocks this case in the USA (where brutally u*** friends like Sensenbrenner help him out)? Can WADA charge him in europe? Like france (which, of course, would be the best place to be).

I guess there are more guys like me who don´t know US-Law, and are really feared that Teflon Pharmstrong prevails again (like in the corrupted Birotte case).

I see no way he can block it and any real challenges need to be done after he has gone through the entire process.

 

[Marva32]

But keep in mind that even if Armstrong would win with the state actor argument, he still has to prove that the "state actor" did him wrong in some way.

The argument on this would be that he lost his contract to race in triathlons

 

[alberto.legstrong]

I am not implying that you are wrong. Far from it. I am suggesting that "truth" is not....relative, say, but a condition of its definitions: be it a context of media, juridical findings, emotional attachments, monetary reward, public visibility etc.

Therefore I would suggest that the truth is a balance sheet, not an absolute, and that the "truth" about LA already resides with all those for whom it matters. Few will be affected by the qui tam for example. Sure, Floyd might be buying drinks for a few members here, but that's trickle down capital not truth.

If it makes no difference one way or the other why should it remain a secret?

Did he or did he not do what USADA alleges? These are not complicated answers. Generally short words carry powerful meanings.

Yes and no are 2 very useful and short words.

 

[thehog]

I see no way he can block it and any real challenges need to be done after he has gone through the entire process.

I'd almost say checkmate. But I'll wait the 30 days.

I think a veiled confession of sorts will follow.

 

[aphronesis]

If it makes no difference one way or the other why should it remain a secret?

Did he or did he not do what USADA alleges? These are not complicated answers. Generally short words carry powerful meanings.

Yes and no are 2 very useful and short words.

Are you asking me? Based on what I know and have heard for the past sixteen or so years, I'd say yes.

However, I thought binaries were dropped sometime in the seventies.

I'm asking you a an equally simple question: For whom would the response of yes--publicly revealed of course--matter at this point?

What will it change?

 

[la.margna]

The argumentation of some fanboys who suddenly moved to "everybody did it" is hilarious. It is of vital importance that Lance gets removed his 7 wins and banned in order to show every (potential) cheater that they can never be save, nowhere and not even a few years after their cheated success. If he can walk away with it now that would be a disaster for the message of fairness, honesty and truth.

I sincerely hope he gets his 7 TdF titles removed and an avalanche of claims and lawsuits will drop on this evil cheater.

If he can buy himself out again with bribing or lobbying it would be one of the sadest events in the country of freedom and deomcracy. It would confirm that you can BUY EVERYTHING. Unfortunately, I still think that might be likely. Let's hope I am wrong.

Lance deserves it so much to be finally f..ked. It's enough how he has been threatening and bullying people and exploiting cancer. The world is sick of the yellow di.k ring. I think, his real face becomes increasingly more obvious even to people outside of cycling, particularly if they are following how Lance is desperately trying every measure (no matter how poor it is) to get out.

But we will see. Never understimate this guy and his power & money. He is dangerous. Very dangerous.

I assume that even when he is found guilty and banned, many cyclists will still not open their mouth, as they are (to a certain extent understandably) still worried and in fear about revenge/retaliation. Lance has no limits. He is more evil than everybody can imagine. As often in history, the real evil guys cover and shield behind a fake good cause. F..k the alibi cancer saviour.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I'll pose a question here, because there's been a truism assumed lately that's repeated across lines, whether it's the "haters" the "professional" legal experts, the long time cycling stalwarts or the scientifically inclined (obviously these categories can cross and do): what is this "truth" you want revealed? And spare the bombastic fraud bits, that's been covered for three years running now.

More importantly: who is this truth to be revealed to? Who is addressed to? What, exactly, is it going to do for those clamoring that the truth be revealed? Will it be psychic reparation from the media reality that foisted this falsity upon you? Will it be seeing cancer "victims," stop accepting sound bite maxims and redirect their lives in such a way that they don't invite cancer in the first place? Will it be a final cessation to seeing the sport you "love" no longer overcoded with crap product endoresments?

And yes, again, there's at least a good one, two, maybe three dozen people (let's leave aside SCA, hey, they're an insurance company), who will find themselves vindicated by this "truth," but do you think it will drop from the ether like an epiphany and radically supercharge and alter their lives?

This so-called truth has already been out there since the mid nineties and anyone hanging "hope" on its revelation is already an active or begrudging participant in the mechanisms that let it flourish.

Off, but related topic: I don't see hardly any (there are a couple) of the US based detractors masticating this topic showing up in the Tour and Sky threads.

That in itself speaks its own volumes.

Why don't you take your theory stuff to a new thread?

It seems this is nothing more than an effort to bring irrelevant and off topic nonsense that has been answered many times in a a thread that is about Lance Armstrongs current case where is being accused of a conspiracy to dope throughout a large part of his career.

But to briefly acknowledge your points;
• To your question, What truth so we want revealed? Ah, the truth.
• To your question,Who is the truth to be revealed to? People whose name begins with Y born on a Friday
• Its noticeable that the word Fraud upsets you - deal with it
• As to your question - "will drop from the ether like an epiphany and radically supercharge and alter their lives? - yes, I have seen many people argue exactly that
• As for your strawman about "US based detractors masticating" on the Sky thread- well who are you on about, as most have commented there - and have you introduced your theories yet on the Sky thread, ya thought not.

 

[roadfreak44]

victory at last

sorry to interrupt your feral slavering but,well, its not over til its over...as for all you amazing athletes who have never accomplished ANYTHiNG inyour surly lives...even if...so what? wont change the simple fact that he accomplished what no other athlete ever has or will... Lemond admitted that in one of his tours he was feeling badly and riding about as well and the doctor gave him an "Iron injection"...sure he did. that doctor was later implicated in doping a team. Lemond went on to win the tour...a miracle... Indurain was the first to win five in a row and his doctor was the same that administered probenecid to delgado though it wasnt technically an illegal drug at the time but its only known use was to mask steroids. . why arent you calling for an investigation into him? It goes on and on with a list of other contemporary riders as well. If this isnt a witch hunt why did landis and hamilton ONLY implicate Armstrong? Given their knowledge of a VAST conspiracy seems thered be a mighty long list ...Quite simple they wouldnt get as much money from anyone else as their fair share for offering evidence and their list probla bly extends to tow members... Incredibly convincing cast of characters. You really should wait until the verdict is in before you begin your sanctimonius gloating. BTW what races have you won???
call me a lance boy or whatever other pathetic stereotypes you typically us e to justify the witch hunt you are leading. Being an American unlike you I find any form of mob sentiment that si generated by hyenas to run counter to the sense decency most americans I know live by. The comments on here remind me of the McCarthy era hearings and you my friend wouldve been there self righteously pointing fingers. Something about a twig and a log comes to mind...what are your palmares again???

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

The argumentation of some fanboys who suddenly moved to "everybody did it" is hilarious. It is of vital importance that Lance gets removed his 7 wins and banned in order to show every (potential) cheater that they can never be save, nowhere and not even a few years after their cheated success. If he can walk away with it now that would be a disaster for the message of fairness, honesty and truth.

I sincerely hope he gets his 7 TdF titles removed and an avalanche of claims and lawsuits will drop on this evil cheater.

If he can buy himself out again with bribing or lobbying it would be one of the sadest events in the country of freedom and deomcracy. It would confirm that you can BUY EVERYTHING. Unfortunately, I still think that might be likely. Let's hope I am wrong.

Lance deserves it so much to be finally f..ked. It's enough how he has been threatening and bullying people and exploiting cancer. The world is sick of the yellow di.k ring. I think, his real face becomes increasingly more obvious even to people outside of cycling, particularly if they are following how Lance is desperately trying every measure (no matter how poor it is) to get out.

But we will see. Never understimate this guy and his power & money. He is dangerous. Very dangerous.

I assume that even when he is found guilty and banned, many cyclists will still not open their mouth, as they are (to a certain extent understandably) still worried and in fear about revenge/retaliation. Lance has no limits. He is more evil than everybody can imagine. As often in history, the real evil guys cover and shield behind a fake good cause. F..k the alibi cancer saviour.

1+ I share all your fear, your feelings about this rotten evil, and think exactly the same way.

 

[SirLes]

They did come up with some amazing scenarios!

Armstrong took his cue from them with the bike. Bike pron, envy, money, living on your own terms, hookers, strippers, drugs, alcohol,lap dances, reckless driving, private jets, intoxicating views from mountaintops! Aspen, Cabo, Caribbean, French Riviera, Bono! Lovett, motorcycles, rock stars, presidents, power....he's an excellent father too!

What an irresistable brew he has concocted for fantasy!

Irresistable indeed and why I'm not sure this case does a great deal for the future of clean cycling. If you're a teenager How is someone going to persuade you it's best to be clean when you have the Lance alternative? The idea you might get caught 10-20 years later is as much of a deterent as liver or lung disease is when to comes to teenagers drinking and smoking.

I'd be willing to bet there are an awful lot of people who would swap their lives for Lance's even if he ends up losing all his titles.

The idea of training all the time and living like a monk sounded a bit dull. The reality is so much cooler

 

[alberto.legstrong]

What will it change?

I don't think we're getting away from binaries anytime soon.

Well to begin with, you essentially have a fraud living off his ill gotten gains. You also have a situation of hubris in the extreme and I can respect it may not change much for you, but cultures will forever crave icons and this is an illegitimate icon and the culture needs that information to be decisively proven and widely disseminated. Then there's the culture of doping that he did not invent certainly but he elevated in my opinion.

Again, if it changes nothing for you, then fine, let the information come out and see where it goes from there. But the testimony and evidence should most certainly come out.

 

[aphronesis]

Why don't you take your theory stuff to a new thread?

It seems this is nothing more than an effort to bring irrelevant and off topic nonsense that has been answered many times in a a thread that is about Lance Armstrongs current case where is being accused of a conspiracy to dope throughout a large part of his career.

But to briefly acknowledge your points;
• To your question, What truth so we want revealed? Ah, the truth.
• To your question,Who is the truth to be revealed to? People whose name begins with Y born on a Friday
• Its noticeable that the word Fraud upsets you - deal with it
• As to your question - "will drop from the ether like an epiphany and radically supercharge and alter their lives? - yes, I have seen many people argue exactly that
• As for your strawman about "US based detractors masticating" on the Sky thread- well who are you on about, as most have commented there - and have you introduced your theories yet on the Sky thread, ya thought not.

I'll answer this very simply, starting with the easiest first: I don't need to introduce any theories on the Sky thread as they're already going full force.

On topic for this thread: at the moment anyone stops speaking about the USADA, judge Sparks, what they know of LA's past, etc. and start talking about truth, honesty, fairness, resolution, vindication, etc. they are introducing theories: all of which are socially vetted and enabled--historicized even--relative to what a culture will withstand and profit from.

Sorry, which part of asking for clarification of "truth" in this instance is off topic?

If you don't like my "theories" you should report them as trolling.

Maybe you should try to out my identity while you're at it.

 

[MarkvW]

I think I mentioned it in there but apologize if it wasn't highlighted in the comments sufficiently. Whatever the truth is has always been good enough for me. I think it's fairly obvious where I stand but I also was once a huge fan of his and if he is clean based on the truthful testimony of everyone that the USADA has lined up to testify and all of their evidence then he is clean and I am wrong in my present assumption.

I have no problem with being wrong if that is what you are implying. The truth is the truth, his supporters are doing everything in their power to suppress it.

If he is clean, why would you? Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

Everybody has their own "truth." The more sunlight and openness, the better for each person to discover that truth.

Pro cycling is a very dark place. It could use as much light as can be thrown on it.

 

[BroDeal]

If you were a fan of the Trust But Verify comedy then check out this Slowtwitch thread.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/S...d_investigation_into_USADA_oversigh_P4042566/

It is like a repeat with Landis' name replaced with Armstrong's and Brower replaced with Dan Empfield, the owner of Slowtwitch.

It's hilarious. Just like TBV, it is a bunch of people cloaking their belief that Armstrong should get away with it in a phony wrapping of concern about process and protecting other athletes from the injustice of the USADA.

 

[roadfreak44]

The argumentation of some fanboys who suddenly moved to "everybody did it" is hilarious. It is of vital importance that Lance gets removed his 7 wins and banned in order to show every (potential) cheater that they can never be save, nowhere and not even a few years after their cheated success. If he can walk away with it now that would be a disaster for the message of fairness, honesty and truth.

I sincerely hope he gets his 7 TdF titles removed and an avalanche of claims and lawsuits will drop on this evil cheater.

If he can buy himself out again with bribing or lobbying it would be one of the sadest events in the country of freedom and deomcracy. It would confirm that you can BUY EVERYTHING. Unfortunately, I still think that might be likely. Let's hope I am wrong.

Lance deserves it so much to be finally f..ked. It's enough how he has been threatening and bullying people and exploiting cancer. The world is sick of the yellow di.k ring. I think, his real face becomes increasingly more obvious even to people outside of cycling, particularly if they are following how Lance is desperately trying every measure (no matter how poor it is) to get out.

But we will see. Never understimate this guy and his power & money. He is dangerous. Very dangerous.

I assume that even when he is found guilty and banned, many cyclists will still not open their mouth, as they are (to a certain extent understandably) still worried and in fear about revenge/retaliation. Lance has no limits. He is more evil than everybody can imagine. As often in history, the real evil guys cover and shield behind a fake good cause. F..k the alibi cancer saviour.

the most dangerous of all human beings is that type of small anonymous beast that leads a mob and condemns another before they are heard in a court of law. To villify someone before they have been convicted isnt a measure of their character. it is a measure of yours...I am amazed at the parade of small minds on this forum that offer emotional invective that they attempt to pass off as well reasoned intellect. I too have had doubts for years about LA but the court will decide, thats why they exist. If it was up to the mob on here he would already be swinging. Such a noble lot so much better and more ethical than a cheater eh??? I lived in Mississippi in the late 60s long enough to see what mobs do and if you are wrong? what then? seen that also.

 

[aphronesis]

I don't think we're getting away from binaries anytime soon.

Well to begin with, you essentially have a fraud living off his ill gotten gains. You also have a situation of hubris in the extreme and I can respect it may not change much for you, but cultures will forever crave icons and this is an illegitimate icon and the culture needs that information to be decisively proven and widely disseminated. Then there's the culture of doping that he did not invent certainly but he elevated in my opinion.

Again, if it changes nothing for you, then fine, let the information come out and see where it goes from there. But the testimony and evidence should most certainly come out.

Here's my question to you then. Do you think any revelation about LA's past will curb this culture's craving for icons? Or do you think that any diminishment thereof is already reflective of a transformation within that culture itself--between the last decade and this one?

Ok, he elevated the culture. Again, what is the net (not the individual) effect of this revelation going to be?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I'll answer this very simply, starting with the easiest first: I don't need to introduce any theories on the Sky thread as they're already going full force.

But what about the truth?

On topic for this thread: at the moment anyone stops speaking about the USADA, judge Sparks, what they know of LA's past, etc. and start talking about truth, honesty, fairness, resolution, vindication, etc. they are talking introducing theories: all of which are socially vetted and enabled--historicized even--relative to what a culture will withstand and profit from.

Sorry, which part of asking for clarification of "truth" in this instance is off topic?

In a legal process you are asked to swear to "The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" - I guess if I ever find myself in that situation I will argue "well, which truth are we on about?"

If you don't like my "theories" you should report them as trolling.

Maybe you should try to out my identity while you're at it.

Nice try - I did not try and out the poster Colleges identity.
However they were starting to make references that they were indeed that person - which would be a disgraceful thing to do if they were NOT that person.
That is misrepresentation - and a very serious abuse of any forum.

 

[red_flanders]

Please take your personal conversations offline, and cease discussing the outing of other forum members. Topic is USADA/Armstrong.

 

[spetsa]

sorry to interrupt your feral slavering but,well, its not over til its over...as for all you amazing athletes who have never accomplished ANYTHiNG inyour surly lives...even if...so what? wont change the simple fact that he accomplished what no other athlete ever has or will... Lemond admitted that in one of his tours he was feeling badly and riding about as well and the doctor gave him an "Iron injection"...sure he did. that doctor was later implicated in doping a team. Lemond went on to win the tour...a miracle... Indurain was the first to win five in a row and his doctor was the same that administered probenecid to delgado though it wasnt technically an illegal drug at the time but its only known use was to mask steroids. . why arent you calling for an investigation into him? It goes on and on with a list of other contemporary riders as well. If this isnt a witch hunt why did landis and hamilton ONLY implicate Armstrong? Given their knowledge of a VAST conspiracy seems thered be a mighty long list ...Quite simple they wouldnt get as much money from anyone else as their fair share for offering evidence and their list probla bly extends to tow members... Incredibly convincing cast of characters. You really should wait until the verdict is in before you begin your sanctimonius gloating. BTW what races have you won???
call me a lance boy or whatever other pathetic stereotypes you typically us e to justify the witch hunt you are leading. Being an American unlike you I find any form of mob sentiment that si generated by hyenas to run counter to the sense decency most americans I know live by. The comments on here remind me of the McCarthy era hearings and you my friend wouldve been there self righteously pointing fingers. Something about a twig and a log comes to mind...what are your palmares again???

I held a USPRO turned USAC/UCI license for 16 years (1991-2007). I deserve answers. Please tell us who the F*CK you are.

 

[Deagol]

Here's my question to you then. Do you think any revelation about LA's past will curb this culture's craving for icons?....

That would be my wish, FWIW. Society, as a whole, growing up a bit and getting more realistic. Probably will never happen though. The two questions should be independent, though.

 

[noddy69]

Here's my question to you then. Do you think any revelation about LA's past will curb this culture's craving for icons? Or do you think that any diminishment thereof is already reflective of a transformation within that culture itself--between the last decade and this one?

Ok, he elevated the culture. Again, what is the net (not the individual) effect of this revelation going to be?

Who cares what the net effect of whatever revelation is. If the man is guilty he should be caught and punished or rehabilitated or buried or whatever society decides should be done. Honestly this isnt a message board for students discussing social studies its on Lance v Usada .

 

[Microchip]