USADA - Armstrong

[ChewbaccaD]

Back from the dead? Your response would indicate the opposite. "Truth" hurts?

Are you trying to say I am Cyclingnews Forums Jesus? Because I really am not interested in a crown of thorns and some nails though my appendages. Thanks though.

 

[aphronesis]

If I swindle you out of a bunch of money by running an elaborate conspiracy it's only truth to you? The truth is a balance sheet...

What a bunch of crap.

Sorry, I thought this was the USADA doping case. Which swindle? The USPS? Are you, Scott, telling me that govt. funds took a loss on that one?

Or is it the individual armband wearers? Trek? Nike? Versus? Donors to Livestrong? Or just fans of sport in general. Is that who the USADA is representing?

Donors would require a separate thread: what is the psychology of people who donate to livestrong?

 

[KingsMountain]

Back on topic.
This is for you legal eagles - here is a paper called;
Doper are not Duped: USADA's Assistance to Federal Prosecutions Ultimately Protecting Clean Athletes is Not State Action.

Ilinked to this yesterday, and pointed out that folks who claim there is no chance of the USADA being named a state actor (e.g. D-Queued and RaceRadio) are ignoring the import of this paper.

Tygart only took the trouble to lay out this interpretation and publish it because he does believe that the is a risk of being named a state actor, and that it would have an adverse effect on the USADA.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Sorry, I thought this was the USADA doping case. Which swindle? The USPS? Are you, Scott, telling me that govt. funds took a loss on that one?

Or is it the individual armband wearers? Trek? Nike? Versus? Donors to Livestrong? Or just fans of sport in general. Is that who the USADA is representing?

Donors would require a separate thread: what is the psychology of people who donate to livestrong?

And the cancer shield is once again deployed. Captain, I don't think she'll take any more...no seriously, I don't think the cancer shield is going to work much longer...

In all honesty, have you ever seen Lance this rattled? I mean, the USADA is Cool Hand Luke this time. They are calmly going about their very important duties and watching as Cancer Jesus spins himself into a froth. Maybe he'll just tell the "truth" at some point, yes?

 

[alberto.legstrong]

Sorry, I thought this was the USADA doping case. Which swindle? The USPS? Are you, Scott, telling me that govt. funds took a loss on that one?

Or is it the individual armband wearers? Trek? Nike? Versus? Donors to Livestrong? Or just fans of sport in general. Is that who the USADA is representing?

Donors would require a separate thread: what is the psychology of people who donate to livestrong?

you're getting to the troll zone, dude. i am probably the last person to ask for even a troll to get suspended or banned but get it back on the road or you'll flame out pretty soon. just trying to be nice.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Ilinked to this yesterday, and pointed out that folks who claim there is no chance of the USADA being named a state actor (e.g. D-Queued and RaceRadio) are ignoring the import of this paper.

Tygart only took the trouble to lay out this interpretation and publish it because he does believe that the is a risk of being named a state actor, and that it would have an adverse effect on the USADA.

No, he took the trouble to lay out the case because someone had already tried to say USADA was a state actor. Get your facts straight.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Cancer Jesus

 

[aphronesis]

you're getting to the troll zone, dude. i am probably the last person to ask for even a troll to get suspended or banned but get it back on the road or you'll flame out pretty soon. just trying to be nice.

I'm not trolling you or Chewie (seemed like a much simpler time when all the LA related threads were rolled into one--since the net result usually distilled to the same positions.) Anyway

Let's be clear for those reading who free associate: by invoking bracelets, livestrong, and donors, I am not advocating any of them. Never have.

Try to read syntactically: I was responding to a post by Scott that mentioned a swindle. If those people are the ones who were swindled, then they got what they paid for. That's not to be strictly callous: they may or may not be victims: willing and unwilling of that situation.

On topic, I am asking what public the USADA represents. The paper co-authored by Tygart that Maserati linked is already hyperbolic in the first paragraph: therefore it's not unreasonable to ask who it is speaking for. And to what end.

 

[D-Queued]

Ilinked to this yesterday, and pointed out that folks who claim there is no chance of the USADA being named a state actor (e.g. D-Queued and RaceRadio) are ignoring the import of this paper.

Tygart only took the trouble to lay out this interpretation and publish it because he does believe that the is a risk of being named a state actor, and that it would have an adverse effect on the USADA.

Sorry to have missed your post and the reference yesterday.

This thread moves really fast...

Yes, I can see how you could forward that argument. But, there is no substance or foundation for it.

However, before considering your argument, we should really consider the context that this paper was developed under.

The Floyd case was a massive distortion that became very high profile, and was only one-sided.

USADA was restricted from an opportunity to publicly comment on the PR campaign and its lies and distortions.

As a result of the Floyd case, WADA amended its rules to allow USADA's to comment publicly. This is one of the 'Floyd rules'. Please recall that Floyd was berating everyone else to play by their rules...

Since the 'state actor' argument was one of the apparently seductive lies forwarded by Landis, it is no surprise whatsoever that Tygart authored this paper. We should be very confident that the USADA was well prepared to argue this during the arbitration to shatter the Floyd argument. As we know, Floyd's lawyers wised up and did not pursue this argument during the arbitration or subsequent CAS hearings.

Notably, in the Lance case, we see an enormous difference from the Floyd case. The USADA is able to comment in response to misleading allegations from Lance as well as on developments on the case.

Dave.

 

[Microchip]

Note: Image re-done, first one deleted.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

I'm not trolling you or Chewie (seemed like a much simpler time when all the LA related threads were rolled into one--since the net result usually distilled to the same positions.)

i didn't think you were trolling me at all

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I'm not trolling you or Chewie (seemed like a much simpler time when all the LA related threads were rolled into one--since the net result usually distilled to the same positions.) Anyway

Let's be clear for those reading who free associate: by invoking bracelets, livestrong, and donors, I am not advocating any of them. Never have.

Try to read syntactically: I was responding to a post by Scott that mentioned a swindle. If those people are the ones who were swindled, then they got what they paid for. That's not to be strictly callous: they may or may not be victims: willing and unwilling of that situation.

On topic, I am asking what public the USADA represents. The paper co-authored by Tygart that Maserati linked is already hyperbolic in the first paragraph: therefore it's not unreasonable to ask who it is speaking for. And to what end.

Says someone supporting a junkie fraud who had his attorneys file a complaint so full of hyperbolic bull**** that it was thrown out 7 hours after it was filed...

Now, please explain how there is hyperbole in the first paragraph:

Every story has its twists and turns. The story of the downfall of the BayArea Laboratory Cooperative (BALCO), the provider of designer steroids to numerous Olympic and professional athletes, is no exception. In May 2008, the BALCO steroid saga came full circle when a federal jury for the United States District Court of the Northern District of California convicted ex contacts with an admitted steroids dealer.

And note, using "twists and turns" is not hyperbole.

 

[Jeremiah]

And the cancer shield is once again deployed. Captain, I don't think she'll take any more...no seriously, I don't think the cancer shield is going to work much longer...

In all honesty, have you ever seen Lance this rattled? I mean, the USADA is Cool Hand Luke this time. They are calmly going about their very important duties and watching as Cancer Jesus spins himself into a froth. Maybe he'll just tell the "truth" at some point, yes?

He's obviously a case study for sociopaths but the believers actually frighten me.

We're surrounded by all of these people who've been hatched from pods.

I've taken to having a pitchfork in hand at all times.

 

[aphronesis]

Says someone supporting a junkie fraud who had his attorneys file a complaint so full of hyperbolic bull**** that it was thrown out 7 hours after it was filed...

Now, please explain how there is hyperbole in the first paragraph:



And note, using "twists and turns" is not hyperbole.

Let's not get too off topic, but when you get the time to find any post of mine that "supports" a "junkie" fraud, I'd be thrilled to see it. Questioning a potential mob is not support of their target. When you get out of law school maybe do some reading on mass psychology in the 20th century--might be useful for some casework.

On topic [again] "twists and turns" by itself is not hyperbolic. linked to saga, it seems so.

I'm sure you read the Iliad and the Aeneid at some point. "I sing of men and arms......"

Let's be blunt and go back a few days. I haven't researched Tygart and his psychology, but if you don't see over invested political jockeying in this situation, then it's possible you're abetting a repetition of the same affective climate that led to LA's ascendance in the first place.

 

[mewmewmew13]

He's obviously a case study for sociopaths but the believers actually frighten me.

We're surrounded by all of these people who've been hatched from pods.

I've taken to having a pitchfork in hand at all times.

Ah, I have heard of the group they call 'the pitchfork crew'....

 

[rickshaw]

Pardon me for discussing the Topic, but....

This Congressman Sensenbrenner "represents" the 5th District, which happens to include much or Milwaukee. Remember the Milwaukee Brewer Ryan Braun and his little doping case. He got off on a technicality. It also looks like the arbiter may have been corrupt. I'm not sure what if any role USADA had in the Braun case, but they did make comment about Braun getting off,

"Travis Tygart, the head of the United States Anti-Doping Agency ("USADA", the official anti-doping agency for Olympic sport in the United States), said the ruling was "unreal" and "insulting" to clean athletes. He confirmed that what occurred was standard. "This stuff happens around the world all the time. They're collected at people's homes after the UPS or FedEx or DHL is closed. The DCO (doping control officer) keeps it with them. These are well-trained people whose job it is to maintain it. I'm stunned."

Also of interest, just West of District 5 is the town of Waterloo, home of Trek, whose owners actually live in Milwaukee.

Me thinks the Congressman is earning his pay, I mean Campaign contributions. Or is it just payback?

 

[Anonymous]

Got that right. I get to leave in a second though.

So let me get this straight: USADA is representing clean "US" athletes of the past, or the present?

USADA is representing clean athletes. Period.

 

[college]

USADA is representing clean athletes. Period.

Sure that is fine to buy into.

I do not share your opinion on usada.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

The way I see the usada vs. Lance case is that from the time usada was invited by the FEDS to sit in on the interrogations was the time that usada became the state actor thus they have collectively become defactO a state organization. That will be usada's problem from here on and to think even some here want Lance to bargin with usada when he has a chance to effectively close the organization. If usada was for clean sport then where were they when Floyd and Tyler were off on their own doing what they done? Those two had to be busted by foreign labs. It is rational to think that those two were doing the same here on American soil? What about the out of competition testing that usada should have been doing? Where were they?

So can you tell me the rationale for NOT wanting all of the evidence and testimony about the allegations to be heard ?

 

[college]

So can you tell me the rationale for NOT wanting all of the evidence and testimony about the allegations to be heard ?

No one is saying the testimony can’t be heard. The problem is that testimony can be brought to arbitration without having the actual witness present for cross examination. It is not a court of law is it? That is the problem with this entire arbitration system.
I am not someone who asks many questions but why is usada only focused on the punishment and life time banned sanctions against Lance? I know they are after JB and the trainers but seriously what happened to the other US cyclist?
Frankie admited to EPO use. Did they go after a sanction on him? Nope.

 

[BikeCentric]

Again, how/why are some of you people leaping to the conclusion that USADA sat in on DOJ's interviews? This is total conjecture and obviously an Armstrong talking point. Tygart has stated repeatedly that this did not happen. At minimum it's a he said / she said and there is no basis for assuming this as fact.

 

[ManInFull]

No one is saying the testimony can’t be heard. The problem is that testimony can be brought to arbitration without having the actual witness present for cross examination. It is not a court of law is it? That is the problem with this entire arbitration system.
I am not someone who asks many questions but why is usada only focused on the punishment and life time banned sanctions against Lance? I know they are after JB and the trainers but seriously what happened to the other US cyclist?
Frankie admited to EPO use. Did they go after a sanction on him? Nope.

The obvious answer is because Lance is the biggest prize in the hunt for dopers.

 

[aphronesis]

The obvious answer is because Lance is the biggest prize in the hunt for dopers.

So the anti-doping system is isomorphic with competitive sports in terms of results?

That does make it all worthwhile.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

No one is saying the testimony can’t be heard. The problem is that testimony can be brought to arbitration without having the actual witness present for cross examination. It is not a court of law is it? That is the problem with this entire arbitration system.
I am not someone who asks many questions but why is usada only focused on the punishment and life time banned sanctions against Lance? I know they are after JB and the trainers but seriously what happened to the other US cyclist?
Frankie admited to EPO use. Did they go after a sanction on him? Nope.

Let's see.

Doping cheater Tyler denied. Sanctioned.
Doping cheater Floyd denied. Sanctioned.
Doping cheater Frankie admitted. No sanction.
Doping cheater George (apparently) admitted. No sanction.
Doping cheater Levi (apparently) admitted. No sanction.

Hmm. I'm beginning to see a pattern here. Anyone else? Let's play fill-in-the-blank...

Doping cheater Lance denied. ___________________

 

[college]

Again, how/why are some of you people leaping to the conclusion that USADA sat in on DOJ's interviews? This is total conjecture and obviously an Armstrong talking point. Tygart has stated repeatedly that this did not happen. At minimum it's a he said / she said and there is no basis for assuming this as fact.

Realy? Did you not see the press back in 2010? Just this from outside magazine.
Is it true or is it just a talking point? I guess you hope it is a talking point but guess what the answer to your guess is wrong.
Outside magazine in sep 2010
"According to reports, Novitzky, with the backing of the U.S. Attorney's Office in Los Angeles—and the de facto partnership of the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA), a private body—has contacted, and sometimes subpoenaed, current and former Armstrong teammates like Landis, George Hincapie, and Tyler Hamilton, along with employees at sponsors like Trek and Nike. Greg LeMond, a frequent Armstrong scourge, has been asked for documents relating to a past civil case in which LeMond battled Trek over the manufacturer's sales of his signature bikes, with Trek saying LeMond devalued the brand by accusing Armstrong of doping. It's also clear, based on conversations with many sources in a position to know—most of whom requested anonymity, fearing legal repercussions—that Novitzky has targeted peripheral figures, including people who may have testified in old civil cases involving Armstrong that touched on doping."