USADA - Armstrong

[BroDeal]

Interesting point. But i like the PDF style, since jurys will be manipulated. BTW, Walsh and/or Kimmage will take care of making it public. If they get rich out of it? I grant it to them. W/O them, nothing would have ever get started.

I don't care so much about a conviction. I want him exposed. The circus around a public trial would do that.

 

[Bill Murray]

I don't care so much about a conviction. I want him exposed. The circus around a public trial would do that.

Didn't CBS have a poll which said the majority of people already believe Armstrong doped?

I think it comes down to how people interpret the information. Two people can have the same information, one of them can conclude Armstrong is a liar and a fraud, the other doesn't think it matters so much given the context of pro cycling and his other works.

In the end, it's an individual personal thing. Inquirys and trials may not change this hugely. If people are looking for closure, they may not get it. There will always be a large group of people that support him, perhaps the majority.

 

[BroDeal]

Didn't CBS have a poll which said the majority of people already believe Armstrong doped?

I think it comes down to how people interpret the information. Two people can have the same information, one of them can conclude Armstrong is a liar and a fraud, the other doesn't think it matters so much given the context of pro cycling and his other works.

In the end, it's an individual personal thing. Inquirys and trials may not change this hugely. If people are looking for closure, they may not get it. There will always be a large group of people that support him, perhaps the majority.

It is the stuff other than his personal doping that will destroy him. There is no excuse for that.

 

[Cimacoppi49]

I don't care so much about a conviction. I want him exposed. The circus around a public trial would do that.

This is something that I find utterly illogical on Armstrong's part. A public trial is not what he wants. Expensive federal court litigation to bankrupt USADA may be a viable strategy, but that's rather risky to bet all your marbles on.

As for juries, they sometimes do strange things (as do judges and arbitrators), but I've always found that common sense prevails and it's difficult to snow them. I would not want to be Armstrong if he were to testify. Lord, but I'd love to do a cross examination of him. Johan is playing it smart. Arbitrate. I'll wager he refuses to allow the proceeding to be public.

 

[steelciocc]

here is a press release from sen john mcCain

“@SenJohnMcCain: My stmt of support for @usantidoping investigation of Lance Armstrong: http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public...ecord_id=81e65d04-d3a5-57a6-a985-0c2ebfaa3cb0

Brief Thank You note sent to Sen. McCain through the link on his website.

 

[D-Queued]

Funny how you ate now in team with trust but verify. This is funny for me. YMMV

Not sure if that is English, but I always read what dB has to say very carefully.

dB is very intelligent and very capable. We have never been at 100% disagreement (at least by my count, but he may differ). I actually wish he would an an epilogue to his work so that he would actually gain more credit from it and be able to drown all criticism, including my own.

However, given that I do agree with him on this point - and given that the two of us have had such strong arguments - this should give you far more pause and far less laughter. The joke, as they say, is on you.

As Lincoln, noted, you can only please all of the people some of the time. The reason must be very compelling for us to agree.

Dave.

 

[thorny59]

ditto; the tide is turning towards the truth

Brief Thank You note sent to Sen. McCain through the link on his website.

ditto tide is turning towards truth

 

[D-Queued]

Don't know if it has been posted yet or not:

Johan Bruyneel chooses arbitration with USADA

Yes, but what hasn't been posted is who it is that will be paying for his legal costs.

Dave.

 

[BroDeal]

Not sure if that is English, but I always read what dB has to say very carefully.

dB is very intelligent and very capable. We have never been at 100% disagreement (at least by my count, but he may differ). I actually wish he would an an epilogue to his work so that he would actually gain more credit from it and be able to drown all criticism, including my own.

However, given that I do agree with him on this point - and given that the two of us have had such strong arguments - this should give you far more pause and far less laughter. The joke, as they say, is on you.

As Lincoln, noted, you can only please all of the people some of the time. The reason must be very compelling for us to agree.

Dave.

If Brower wanted to regain some credibility then he would use what he learned acting as Landis' Internet propagandist to expose Armstrong's tactics, which seem to be following the same road map that Landis used. The owner of Slowtwitch sounds exactly like Brower did five years ago.

Upstream I wrote that we need a way to distribute information so it is not buried in zillion post threads. TBV, v2.0

 

[D-Queued]

If Brower wanted to regain some credibility then he would use what he learned acting as Landis' Internet propagandist to expose Armstrong's tactics, which seem to be following the same road map that Landis used. The owner of Slowtwitch sounds exactly like Brower did five years ago.

Upstream I wrote that we need a way to distribute information so it is not buried in zillion post threads. TBV, v2.0

It would be a really good idea.

I have a goal to transcribe some full testimonies and post them here, but they will ultimately just get buried.

Dave.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

The rules of arbitration are different with different arbitrating bodies, and therefore evidence and testimony can be treated differently. The key here is whether the arbitration rules the usada employs were made clear before professional cyclists agreed, voluntarily, to those rules? I would assume they were. I've agreed to go to arbitration for a variety of reasons in my professional career and save the money usually associated with a court room. I have always read the rules of arbitration very carefully before singing the agreement and before the arbitration began, every time the person(s) conducting the arbitration asked if I was there willingly and on my own volition and required I sign a document to that effect. It is a valid process for settling disputes without involving civil courts, as long as both sides agreed to the rules.

Excellent post, Shawn.

Here's another reason arbitration and the specific USADA rules rightfully apply in this case. What's really at stake?

1) Armstrong's license.
2) Seven Tour titles

It's critical to recognize and appreciate that Armstrong has no Constitutional right to either of those. I could hereby create the "95 award", and award to College, then rescind it a year later. Or 12 years later. I'm the "owner" of the "95 award". So I decide how to award it, and how it might be rescinded. Maybe I come up with some rules on how this is all done, including a section on how disagreements are to be arbitrated, and anyone who wants the 95 award has to agree to all that.

Well, if I later rescind my award to College, he can't claim his Constitutional rights were violated. What rights? He had no right to the "95 award" in the first place.

Similarly, Armstrong's "right" to the license and titles is subject to his compliance with the relevant rules, as adjudicated per the specified and previously-agreed-to arbitration process.

 

[Anonymous]

BroDeal thinks other things, other than doping, would really "expose" Armstrong. I'm guessing one of those things is the way Armstrong smeared Betsy Andreu as fat, before she was the super trim woman she is today. The same tactic Brodeal uses in this thread.

There is a lot of hypocrisy surrounding the Armstrong case. He doesn't seem like the nicest of guys sometimes, although he has done a lot of good work through his charity, but is he really this monster people potray him as? Is he really that different to you or me?

Well, I can't speak for you but he's different than me.

I don't lie, cheat and steal. Furthermore, I don't engage in personal destruction... something which LA does on a semi-regular basis.

There is a lot of hypocrisy surrounding the Armstrong case.

I'm not sure what you are referring to here.

 

[dbrower]

It would be a really good idea.

I have a goal to transcribe some full testimonies and post them here, but they will ultimately just get buried.

Dave.

Blogspot is free to use. All it takes is someone with interest and time to collect and post. The only cost can be a domain name that's not under blogspot.com, and that's pretty cheap, though it looks like I messed up the free forwarding on zoneedit.com at some point.

Have at it. Someone who spends a lot of time here might find it of longer term value to do that, and it's not much harder than posting on a board.

-dB

 

[Turner29]

Wow!! I didn't vote for him, but I've always respected his integrity if not his political positions. This was likely prompted by Fabiani and his motley crew trying to get McCain to do like the Congressman from Wisconsin. Seems to me that Armstrong is weakening significantly as more about his case (all those blood samples) comes out.

I have my issues with McCain but never expected such strongly worded support from a person at his level.

Regarding Wisconsin Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner, all we need to note is Wisconsin and that Sensenbrenner is more concerned about Trek Bicycle sales than anything else.

 

[BroDeal]

I have my issues with McCain but never expected such strongly worded support from a person at his level.

McCain has had a hand in trying to clean up boxing, so he might have a personal interest in sports fairness.

 

[thehog]

Don't know if it has been posted yet or not:

Johan Bruyneel chooses arbitration with USADA

Question remains.....


How will he get back into the US without being areested?

 

[thehog]

I have my issues with McCain but never expected such strongly worded support from a person at his level.

Regarding Wisconsin Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner, all we need to note is Wisconsin and that Sensenbrenner is more concerned about Trek Bicycle sales than anything else.

McCain had a server bout of cancer did he not? Appears a fair man.

 

[Turner29]

Question remains.....


How will he get back into the US without being areested?

These are not criminal charges. He is free to enter the USA at any time.

 

[TubularBills]

Tbv 2.0

Upstream I wrote that we need a way to distribute information so it is not buried in zillion post threads. TBV, v2.0

It would be a really good idea.

I have a goal to transcribe some full testimonies and post them here, but they will ultimately just get buried.

Dave.

This thread would be much more interesting and functional if all the personal stuff was stopped.

There is a lot happening and it is a drag that it's getting bogged down in between the news posts and links.

Seems like the best way to manage it would be to ask the MODS to create a sticky for a document brain dump - no commentary just data and documents... with some sort of easily distinguished taxonomy like...

Year_Main Topic_(source)

Let it build organically while someone or a group assembles it into an archive.

When it reaches critical mass or throughout build a pro website with an extremely intuitive user interface...

Maybe include a news streamer with the latest evidence and support scrolling.

Who was it that built that really cool doping site with highly stylized graphics?

Answered my own question:

http://www.dopeology.org/

Dopeology on Armstrong:

http://www.dopeology.org/search/#basic_keywords:armstrong

 

[thehog]

These are not criminal charges. He is free to enter the USA at any time.

Of course. But he was detained the last time he enterted. If he refused to answer questions then he'll be arrested.....

 

[Elagabalus]

It really upsets you that you used those words incorrectly.

And the usage of "saga" in that paper by Tygart didn't have anything to do with Armstrong. It had to do with BALCO. You didn't even read it, did you? <- Not a question. No shame, you don't appear to be here for any other reason than to wind people up...only you just end up winding yourself up. Sad. Here is a towel for the egg on your face.

Back from kickin' it over on Slowtwitch! You should send them over here to read the stuff you and CyclingNews' other resident attorneys were saying about the case a few days ago. Where was that page 512 or so?. You, never know, one or two might show up--they might even register here (Well ... except for NedBraden because he's already banned).

 

[thehog]

Wouldn't that be something. His attendance being required for a civil matter but arrested on the spot in a criminal one. What a tangled web.

Unless its satellite link up he's not coming back to the US. Period.

I guess his lawyers can appear by proxy.

Jailbird!

 

[Mr.DNA]

http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public...ecord_id=81e65d04-d3a5-57a6-a985-0c2ebfaa3cb0

Wondeboy gets some congressman.....USADA comes back with Sen John McCain



Checkmate

Senator trumps a congressman. This made my day.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Back from kickin' it over on Slowtwitch! You should send them over here to read the stuff you and CyclingNews' other resident attorneys were saying about the case a few days ago. Where was that page 512 or so?. You, never know, one or two might show up--they might even register here (Well ... except for NedBraden because he's already banned).

Nah, they aren't interested in doing anything but vaguely threatening my professional future because I think Armstrong is a doping fraud. Those guys define the term "true believer." Evidently, if you question someone there in a sarcastic manner, you will never get a job because every employer will look it up and not hire you because you challenged their little sewing circle of thought. I wouldn't want them over here because they are useless for the most part.

 

[Microchip]

http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public...ecord_id=81e65d04-d3a5-57a6-a985-0c2ebfaa3cb0

Wondeboy gets some congressman.....USADA comes back with Sen John McCain

Checkmate