USADA - Armstrong

[PedalPusher]

Yeah, he didn't refile the TRO, he'll be asking for a preliminary injunction before the 30 days is up.

I'm comfortable calling this abuse, because that's what it is.

Well, they withdrew the TRO, the lawsuit still stands for a injunction, techie speaking.

 

[MarkvW]

Well, they withdrew the TRO, the lawsuit still stands for a injunction, techie speaking.

Maybe everybody is just going to wait to see how the motion to dismiss turns out. I'm pretty certain that they're going to ask for a PI, because that's the only explanation that makes sense of the 30 day postponement of the arbitration deadline.

 

[Anonymous]

I think chewbaccad said it best up thread, that the fewer the rights of the accused the more uneasy we become with the process. There are many of us that believe that the rights of the accused to the most robust of defenses is sacred, regardless of the defendant and the crimes committed. Separating our emotions is nearly impossible at times, but anything less is the selling of our beliefs and lowers us to the level of those we judge, heinous as their crimes may be.

Generally, I don't think many will disagree. Specifically, this is a civil case. LA is not going to prison (yet anyways). He's had opportunities to discuss his case with Tygart before the charging letter became public. Lance could easily have avoided this ****storm.

At some point society needs to become un-afraid to punish the bad actors. You are not there yet. Fine. Let the process play out and then when there is something to complain about... start complaining.

I can't quite figure out what you are concerned about but I'm sure you have your reasons.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

I am closing this thread to muck it out -- as I have time.

When it opens, it WILL remain civil and on-topic. Suspensions will be handed out liberally.

Susan

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

So: I have done my best. Two users will be permanently banned and three others will get temporary bans.

To repeat myself, this thread will remain civil and on-topic. Suspensions will be awarded liberally, if needed. In light of the topic of this thread, 30 days sounds good.

Susan

 

[Muriel]

Are Johan's attorneys distinctly on their own course and separate from Lance's show , or are they trying to cooperatively work for the good of both cases?

My take (and I'm no legal expert) is that they're on their own course and Bruyneel's taken the logical next step. If he didn't opt for the hearing then he'd have been sanctioned. By electing for a hearing, he's delayed that inevitability. He knows the hearing wont be until after the court decides on Armstrong's complaint and might even prevent the hearing totally. It's a long shot he may as well play, he looses nothing by doing it.

Btw, from the linked report....

Bruyneel can choose to keep the hearing private or open it to the public.

 

[PedalPusher]

I think chewbaccad said it best up thread, that the fewer the rights of the accused the more uneasy we become with the process. There are many of us that believe that the rights of the accused to the most robust of defenses is sacred, regardless of the defendant and the crimes committed. Separating our emotions is nearly impossible at times, but anything less is the selling of our beliefs and lowers us to the level of those we judge, heinous as their crimes may be.

And I agree with that whole heartedly, that is why I am in this profession. But this is a PRIVATE ACTION.

Arbitration does not rely on due process. You can either agree to it when you take a license or not. No one forces you. Private organizations have their own rules. Lance is not being accused of a crime, he is being accused of violating rules of a contractual agreement within the bodies that oversee it.

You enter into arbitrated agreements at a minimum yearly if not more frequently. Credit cards, banks, cable, auto loans, etc. etc.

Lance has ALWAYS known this, his former handler help write the rules. In all my years in law enforcement and now the legal profession, this is a man who feels the pressure of his deeds coming back. Animals fight the most when cornered.

He gambled on his come back because his ego and sociopathy could not sit on the sidelines. But he knew deep down he would not always be most favored forever. That his influence would fade as the old guard changed.

A lot of people made a mint and their careers off of Lance doing well. Trek, Liggett, Sherwen, Roll, race organizers (who really don't have that much dinero) American broadcasting of the tour, hell France! ( Viewership and tourism jumped during the Lance years) Americans went in droves to the Tour, Yes Liggett and Sherwen have called the race for ages, since they rode branches and rocks for wheel, but would they be as known today without the Lance years? Nope. But the access these guys got also, Sherwen with his investment with Lance, Liggett riding in the private plane etc etc.

There was a lot at stake when Lance was riding, a lot of money, and don't you think anyone was going to let the gravy train stop flowing.

The climate changed and Lance out of sociopathy/narcissism could not resist like a moth to a flame.

Sociopaths operate on many different plains of society, some small, some big. But the game is always the same. The game is people are chess pieces on a board. Always. They always have to be controlling, manipulating or guiding the situation. It's really fascinating when you have been around a true sociopath, and scary too. And I have been around a few.

Yes it is all mere speculation right now, but it is not so much guessing. Law is a very unique horse to tame, sometimes, but it is not hard to predict when done with objectivity of the law itself. It's hard to be unbiased for some people when applying the law when they truly don't have a full grasp of it. And their are a lot of attorneys and even judges that have a hard time, but most do a good job. Everyone is human.

So my prediction still? Gets dismissed. Mostly on jurisdiction/diversity. State actor? Even if USADA sat in the interviews with Novitsky doesn't make them a state actor. They could be allowed as a expert examiner. There are pretty big hurdles to be declared state actor, which would need specific case law examples and I'm not bothering with it right now until something develops. Google is your friend.

Oh wait...nevermind

 

[Muriel]

Even if USADA sat in the interviews with Novitsky doesn't make them a state actor.

What if it was the other way around. That is, a federal agent sat in on a USADA interview? We know USADA didn't get evidence from the feds but it could have gone the other way. What if there's a federal officer to lend muscle to a USADA interview? Would that then deem USADA to be acting as a 'state agent'?

 

[TexPat]

What if it was the other way around. That is, a federal agent sat in on a USADA interview? We know USADA didn't get evidence from the feds but it could have gone the other way. What if there's a federal officer to lend muscle to a USADA interview? Would that then deem USADA to be acting as a 'state agent'?

This is a very good question. I cannot help but think that there is something else going on regarding the prematurely closed federal investigation. There are several very intelligent players at work here, who are many magnitudes smarter than their adversaries.

 

[PedalPusher]

What if it was the other way around. That is, a federal agent sat in on a USADA interview? We know USADA didn't get evidence from the feds but it could have gone the other way. What if there's a federal officer to lend muscle to a USADA interview? Would that then deem USADA to be acting as a 'state agent'?

That would give better rise to "state actor". But the USADA doesn't need FED Agents to add muscle. Doping is not a crime per se. USADA has plenty of muscle, they have your future earnings in their pocket.

What's interesting is, and why I think Lance besides aforementioned thoughts above is fighting, because it he is found guilty in arbitration, it could very well and most likely open the flood gates. Perjury in the SCA case, GJ could reconvene etc. The GJ never gave a bill of indictment, the Feds just ended the proceedings. So it could be re-opened if new information arises..aka findings of fact in an arbitration hearing and witness testimony.

Remember the case was about fraud, not doping in the fed case.

 

[TexPat]

That would give better rise to "state actor". But the USADA doesn't need FED Agents to add muscle. Doping is not a crime per se. USADA has plenty of muscle, they have your future earnings in their pocket.

What's interesting is, and why I think Lance besides aforementioned thoughts above is fighting, because it he is found guilty in arbitration, it could very well and most likely open the flood gates. Perjury in the SCA case, GJ could reconvene etc. The GJ never gave a bill of indictment, the Feds just ended the proceedings. So it could be re-opened if new information arises..aka findings of fact in an arbitration hearing and witness testimony.

Remember the case was about fraud, not doping in the fed case.

Thanks for the analysis.

 

[MarkvW]

This is a very good question. I cannot help but think that there is something else going on regarding the prematurely closed federal investigation. There are several very intelligent players at work here, who are many magnitudes smarter than their adversaries.

All the 'one person' crimes were barred by the statute of limitations. The only other crimes are complicated ones (like RICO and Conspiracy) that depend upon establishing interaction between criminals and predicate offenses. If the core conspirators kept their doping insulated from management and if the core conspirators kept their mouths shut, it would have been very difficult to prove a conspiracy to defraud the USPS. I can buy that the investigators thought they had a good case, but I can also very easily buy that the prosecutors thought it just wasn't good enough.

There does seem to be something else going on. Maybe we have not seen the last of the qui tam. Maybe there is an overarching doping investigation of which the Postie Conspiracy was a tangent. Lots of possibilities.

I just can't imagine the feds terminating their investigation without putting Lance in front of the grand jury under a grant of immunity. They got info from the other Posties, why not Lance? Just totally guessing, though.

 

[Muriel]

But the USADA doesn't need FED Agents to add muscle. Doping is not a crime per se. USADA has plenty of muscle, they have your future earnings in their pocket.

Yes, I can see that. My concern is that IF there was a federal agent in the room (plausible as the feds would be interested in the testimony) then their very presence could be classed as intimidation. For example, a conversation with your landlord over a tenancy agreement dispute takes on a whole new flavour if your landlord has a badged and gun wearing law enforcement officer beside them.

The GJ never gave a bill of indictment, the Feds just ended the proceedings. So it could be re-opened if new information arises..aka findings of fact in an arbitration hearing and witness testimony.

I agree. I went so far as to conjecture (pages ago) that it was a reason behind the closing of the federal investigation... that the results of the USADA hearing could feed back into their investigation. But that's a different topic.

 

[PedalPusher]

All the 'one person' crimes were barred by the statute of limitations. The only other crimes are complicated ones (like RICO and Conspiracy) that depend upon establishing interaction between criminals and predicate offenses. If the core conspirators kept their doping insulated from management and if the core conspirators kept their mouths shut, it would have been very difficult to prove a conspiracy to defraud the USPS. I can buy that the investigators thought they had a good case, but I can also very easily buy that the prosecutors thought it just wasn't good enough.

There does seem to be something else going on. Maybe we have not seen the last of the qui tam. Maybe there is an overarching doping investigation of which the Postie Conspiracy was a tangent. Lots of possibilities.

I just can't imagine the feds terminating their investigation without putting Lance in front of the grand jury under a grant of immunity. They got info from the other Posties, why not Lance? Just totally guessing, though.

Exactly. Maybe some kind of transportation import/export customs related charges to bringing in doping products etc? IDK. There is definitely something else there with the feds. Oh wait...I did also say RICO a few days ago...decided to take a better look at it (had to pull out the books and look at the predicate offenses)....

I think the Feds are going to go RICO. I could be very wrong, but they may have a strong case after reviewing everything. I don't know what they currently have in their possession, but just what USADA is saying, they may have evidence to support RICO after arbitration. Now I see what the big fight is.

WOW, surely this can't be it. You only need two offenses under racketeering and a 10 year period....it makes sense now. Ok time to shut up. If I am wrong in the end, free Avatar for a month, if not...I pick the prize!

EDIT: That's why he can't go in and talk USADA and get a reduction, it sets him up for Fed indictment..he can't even really take arbitration, if he admits anything, if there is any conclusive evidence, he has to fight the arbitration, they go RICO on him...he's done, they file a immediate injunction on all assets....then he is forced to plea, no finances for high profile attorneys...this may be better than we thought. Or a wet dream...guess we will find out!

 

[cprior]

USADA keeps coming out with pleasant surprises every time. This organization is very interesting!

If employment comes with even the slightest amount of perks, I'd apply in a a second.

Even for the dumbest job.

Let's say, the archive or such!

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

If employment comes with even the slightest amount of perks, I'd apply in a a second.

Even for the dumbest job.

Let's say, the archive or such!

,


All moot if in fact Bruyneel proceeds, gets deposed, and all the witnesses show up. The evidence will be public and Lance will be exposed.
If there is any dialogue between LA and JB these days, I am pretty sure there is an interesting dance. Remember Bonds trainer going to jail, while Barry slept at home......Maybe Bruyneel needs some cash to play along now, as his livelihood in the peleton is done, regardless of the outcome.

 

[Cimacoppi49]

I'm curious and a little confused...so Johan wants arbitration, presumably private, but wondering how this might (or might not) be beneficial to Lance's case.
Are Johan's attorneys distinctly on their own course and separate from Lance's show , or are they trying to cooperatively work for the good of both cases? I would think that Armstrong is trying to make sure he controls it all for his benefit.

I'm overthinking everything and driving myself crazy. Any thoughts from the forum legal team?

Johan's attorneys have an absolute obligation to represent Johan. If that means throwing Armstrong under the bus, that's what they'll recommend. Will Johan follow their advice? Time will tell.

 

[Square-pedaller]

The game theoretical outcome seems to be:
- LA pays JB
- JB goes to private arbitration, and gets 'convicted'
- Lance uses this as PR to say that it's a kangaroo court, refuses arbitration, gets 'convicted' but paints himself as the victim

It plays this way because:
- for LA the best outcome is that the evidence doesn't come out, so that he can claim it's a kangaroo court
- for JB, it doesn't matter which route he goes, because he's going to be convicted anyway and loss of reputation is not a big issue for him. He can therefore effectively blackmail LA by threatening to go to open arbitration.

Celaya's due for a payout, too.

Well, that's my view. (Probably a good thing I'm not paid for this kind of thing.)

 

[Cavalier]

Bruyneel's case won't be settled by the time Armstrong has to make his own decision. Seems like it's a bit 'all rats trying to flee the sinking ship' - which I find a bit odd, because you'd have thought they'd be turning on each other. Armstrong could effectively help his own case by saying Bruyneel told him he had to. Guess when someone is digging a deeper grave they don't know when to stop.

 

[Square-pedaller]

Bruyneel's case won't be settled by the time Armstrong has to make his own decision. Seems like it's a bit 'all rats trying to flee the sinking ship' - which I find a bit odd, because you'd have thought they'd be turning on each other. Armstrong could effectively help his own case by saying Bruyneel told him he had to. Guess when someone is digging a deeper grave they don't know when to stop.

Yes, you're right about that. LA still has an interest that JB and Celaya go for closed arbitration, though, so I think that can both make money out of LA. I'm not sure whether Armstrong would not still be able to spin 'this is not going to be fair, so I'm not going to arbitration'.

I imagine the various actors may feel somewhat constrained in contacting each other directly rather than via their lawyers, and presumably lawyers can't bargain over how much one of their clients pays another to go for a closed hearing. I'm not sure what the law is in USA, but I would have thought that there were grounds to monitor LA's phone calls and email in relation to possible fraud etc cases.

 

[Cimacoppi49]

Bruyneel's case won't be settled by the time Armstrong has to make his own decision. Seems like it's a bit 'all rats trying to flee the sinking ship' - which I find a bit odd, because you'd have thought they'd be turning on each other. Armstrong could effectively help his own case by saying Bruyneel told him he had to. Guess when someone is digging a deeper grave they don't know when to stop.

I think of it as snakes biting each other.

 

[sniper]

Bruyneel's case won't be settled by the time Armstrong has to make his own decision. Seems like it's a bit 'all rats trying to flee the sinking ship' - which I find a bit odd, because you'd have thought they'd be turning on each other. Armstrong could effectively help his own case by saying Bruyneel told him he had to. Guess when someone is digging a deeper grave they don't know when to stop.

it was just pointed out a couple of posts back why LA can't come clean at this stage.

 

[Cimacoppi49]

Yes, you're right about that. LA still has an interest that JB and Celaya go for closed arbitration, though, so I think that can both make money out of LA. I'm not sure whether Armstrong would not still be able to spin 'this is not going to be fair, so I'm not going to arbitration'.

I imagine the various actors may feel somewhat constrained in contacting each other directly rather than via their lawyers, and presumably lawyers can't bargain over how much one of their clients pays another to go for a closed hearing. I'm not sure what the law is in USA, but I would have thought that there were grounds to monitor LA's phone calls and email in relation to possible fraud etc cases.

Given the paper trail and how the payment to Ferrari surfaced, I think the time is passed for Armstrong to make hush money payments to anyone. Given that there is still the possibility of an indictment post-arbitration, such payments would be witness tampering and a felony. If he did, I would expect at least some of his attorneys to withdraw from representing him.

 

[Turner29]

...Animals fight the most when cornered.

...He gambled on his come back because his ego and sociopathy could not sit on the sidelines. But he knew deep down he would not always be most favored forever. That his influence would fade as the old guard changed...

The climate changed and Lance out of sociopathy/narcissism could not resist like a moth to a flame.

Sociopaths operate on many different plains of society, some small, some big. But the game is always the same. The game is people are chess pieces on a board. Always. They always have to be controlling, manipulating or guiding the situation. It's really fascinating when you have been around a true sociopath, and scary too. And I have been around a few...

Thank you for introducing the idea that Lance Armstrong is a sociopath. He certainly shows many traits of such. As you stated, sociopaths are liars, manipulators and charmers. They will do anything they please to get what they want. They feel no remorse or guilt.

Thus, Livestrong is first and foremost an extension of his sociopathy and narcissism. It not only increased his fame and power but provided a "mask" to his true identity as liar and a cheat.

I am going to up the ante and propose that what makes Armstrong particularly vile is that his "courage" (overcoming cancer) was in response to a self-inflicted condition caused by doping.

Let me reiterate. There is strong evidence that Lance Armstrong's cancer, at the very least its rapid metastasis, was caused by his doping. Somewhere, I have a paper linking EPO to such, interestingly brain tumors...

Before he died of cancer, Laurent Fignon, in his book, "Nous étions jeunes et insouciants" (We were young and carefree), confessed to having doped during his career. Later, he discussed the possibility that his cancer was linked to his doping.

The sociopath Armstrong will always cling to lie that he raced clean.

 

[Clemson Cycling]

Thank you for introducing the idea that Lance Armstrong is a sociopath. He certainly shows many traits of such. As you stated, sociopaths are liars, manipulators and charmers. They will do anything they please to get what they want. They feel no remorse or guilt.

Thus, Livestrong is first and foremost an extension of his sociopathy and narcissism. It not only increased his fame and power but provided a "mask" to his true identity as liar and a cheat.

I am going to up the ante and propose that what makes Armstrong particularly vile is that his "courage" (overcoming cancer) was in response to a self-inflicted condition caused by doping.

Let me reiterate. There is strong evidence that Lance Armstrong's cancer, at the very least its rapid metastasis, was caused by his doping. Somewhere, I have a paper linking EPO to such, interestingly brain tumors...

Before he died of cancer, Laurent Fignon, in his book, "Nous étions jeunes et insouciants" (We were young and carefree), confessed to having doped during his career. Later, he discussed the possibility that his cancer was linked to his doping.

The sociopath Armstrong will always cling to lie that he raced clean.

So you think right after Armstrong fought and beat cancer with quite a low shot at survival, he went straight back to the poison so he could win a bike race?