USADA - Armstrong

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Aug 7, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
But that immediately calls into question an IOC blessed sport and the IOC's manufactured reputation as anti-doping. So far, the USADA arbitration pass the mass-media smell test with flying colours. Not hard to do this time thankfully.

Wonderboy can pretend, but Pat and Hein, *in theory* cannot. But there's something else being hidden by Team Wonderboy and Pat and Hein.

As has been mentioned previously, there's so much bending over backwards for Wonderboy at the UCI that Wonderboy has something on presumably Pat and Hein to the point they have threatened their IOC standing to keep it quiet.

A 'mutually assured self destruction"....

Yes, they have enough on each other to blow it sky high, but how do they remain allies if their perspectives diverge as a result of the ruling?? Not so easy, eh Paddy.....
 
Mar 24, 2010
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Berzin said:
It's been said before, but it bares repeating-it's a great day to be a hater.

Yes. It's a good day if you hate corruption.
It's a good day if you hate liars, cheaters, and bullies.
 
Aug 10, 2010
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Page Mill Masochist said:
The only drug scandal equal in its ambition, scale, lawlessness and forced secrecy is the GDR's Olympic drug machine of the 1970s and 1980s.

Ja, mon. In Jamaica they agree wit dat!
 
May 26, 2010
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Alpe d'Huez said:
A great day for clean cycling and fairness in sports.

Here's what I expect next:

• Armstrong will go to USAC and try to get them to intervene. This will eventually fail. USAC has a lot of a** to cover, but they'll cut him before themselves.

• Armstrong's attorneys will appeal to the US Court of Appeals. They will not grant an emergency injunction, USADA's arbitration will move forward, and the Court of Appeals will ultimate reject Armstrong.

• USADA will not allow a delay from Armstrong for more than a few days, maybe none.

There is I think a 40% chance he'll just allow them to strip him of his wins and label him a doper, and try to take his case to the court of public opinion, smearing USADA as best as possible. Then hope the documents are forever sealed.

Presuming he accepts arbitration, he has a huge uphill battle. When Hincapie, Vaughters, Levi, DZ and other credible names start saying "sorry, but we all doped, including Lance" the damage will be irreparable as I see it. It will be all over the news, and ugly.

Accepting will open him to a life of reclusiveness as he will not be welcomed anywhere except the liestrong brigade who'd follow anything with half a myth attached to it and Armstrong hates them more than the clinic.

He is gonna fight this till he gets most of his wealth offshore or till he cracks.

Too many players in this now looking to save their a$$e$ so Armstrong will find it harder.

UCI are in big trouble by all accounts. Is McQuaid a citizen of Swissbankland?
 
Jun 2, 2011
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Benotti69 said:
Accepting will open him to a life of reclusiveness as he will not be welcomed anywhere except the liestrong brigade who'd follow anything with half a myth attached to it and Armstrong hates them more than the clinic.

Not too sure about this. I still see an opportunity for his PR machine to save something for him out of this mess with a carefully managed admission. There are plenty who fit the mold of the bolded.

Edit: sorry B69 mis-read your post - agree he should not go to arbitration; just accept the sanctions and manage the fall out - keep as much of the evidence under wraps.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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python said:
3 factors make me think that judge sparks should announce his verdict later today or tuesday, the 22d the latest...

- usada extension for armstrong expires on the 23d
- judge himself said he wont take long after the refiling
- the very last minute decision would deem professionally inappropriate b/c it denies both sides room for digesting the verdict.

i say, bring it today, judge, and let the clinic explosion.

credit where credit is due.
 
Apr 8, 2010
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Originally Posted by Page Mill Masochist
The only drug scandal equal in its ambition, scale, lawlessness and forced secrecy is the GDR's Olympic drug machine of the 1970s and 1980s.

Armstrong and co have been up to some pretty unsavoury stuff, but nothing like the GDR. I ssupect that once it was obvious that you had talent 'walking away' if you didn't want to dope wasn't an option. There are certainly a fair number of women who suffered lifelong hormonal damage in a way that appears rarer now.
 
Feb 10, 2010
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Alpe d'Huez said:
• Armstrong will go to USAC and try to get them to intervene. This will eventually fail. USAC has a lot of a** to cover, but they'll cut him before themselves.

My wild estimation is Weisel is deeply involved in whatever Wonderboy has on the UCI. Weisel setting Armstrong up for a fail and sets up some real risks for Weisel too. I could see Weisel and Wonderboy trying to keep the corruption focused on the UCI to minimize their own damage.

This is the best part of all of this. As long as USADA doesn't move too quickly, it's going to be a horrible mess for Tailwind all the way into USACDF. USAC, the organization, is separate and mostly administrative.
 
Aug 2, 2010
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MarkvW said:
Ja, mon. In Jamaica they agree wit dat!

Bolt's 9.59 and 19.19 are dubious but are statistically less weird than Marita Koch's 47.6.

These three organized drug cheating schemes stand above the rest in terms of planning, reach, coverup at the highest levels, IMHO:

1. GDR Olympic sports in 1970s and 1980s
2. Pharmstrong
3. Chinese women distance runners of early 1990s.
 
Aug 14, 2012
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Great news!

<rant> I am so ferkin fedd up with cheaters in sport, LA being one of the worst. The world needs more proper Men and less of these little sneaky f...ers. I just cant get how people like LA manage not only to look themselves in the mirror every morning, let alone lie and divulge grandly in the public arena.

I really feel sorry for those pros who actually tried to compete without doping - only to be almost ridiculed by the likes of LA. They are the real heroes of sport. I wish we one day will come to a no tolerance what so ever for cheaters, in all sports, and start banning people for life much sooner. </rant>
 

thehog

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Jul 27, 2009
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Page Mill Masochist said:
Bolt's 9.59 and 19.19 are dubious but are statistically less weird than Marita Koch's 47.6.

These three organized drug cheating schemes stand above the rest in terms of planning, reach, coverup at the highest levels, IMHO:

1. GDR Olympic sports in 1970s and 1980s
2. Pharmstrong
3. Chinese women distance runners of early 1990s.

.....

167. Eddie the Eagle
 
Jul 23, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
A great day for clean cycling and fairness in sports.
<snip>
There is I think a 40% chance he'll just allow them to strip him of his wins and label him a doper, and try to take his case to the court of public opinion, smearing USADA as best as possible. Then hope the documents are forever sealed.
Yes it is.

Armstrong is all but defined by his ego, and I cannot see him taking this to arbitration, no matter how much I would like that to happen. I can see the outcome you outlined above, with Armstrong saying that yellow jerseys didn't mean that much to him (no matter what he called his bike shop), it was all about proving to the world that there is life after cancer and that the haters may take away his titles, but they'll never take away the hope he brings to millions of cancer patients and survivors... et cetera ad nauseum.

He will spin this in a way that ensures he maintains an income on the backs of the ill, the dying, and their families.
 

thehog

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Jul 27, 2009
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thehog said:
http://www.usada.org/media/statement8202012

“We are pleased that the federal court in Austin, Texas has dismissed Lance Armstrong’s lawsuit and upheld the established rules which provide Congressionally-mandated due process for all athletes. The rules in place have protected the rights of athletes for over a decade in every case USADA has adjudicated and we look forward to a timely, public arbitration hearing in this case, should Mr. Armstrong choose, where the evidence can be presented, witness testimony will be given under oath and subject to cross examination, and an independent panel of arbitrators will determine the outcome of the case.”

No one else pick up on "public"?
 
Apr 9, 2009
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thehog said:
No one else pick up on "public"?

That may just be Tygart setting up LA for when he demands a private hearing. In other words, USADA isn't afraid of a public hearing.
 
Feb 10, 2010
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Kretch said:
Not too sure about this. I still see an opportunity for his PR machine to save something for him out of this mess with a carefully managed admission. There are plenty who fit the mold of the bolded.

And people's memories are pretty short. Hide out for 10 years and then recast the myth. I don't think Wonderboy can sell a managed admission today. 10 years from now, probably. History is kind that way.
 
Jul 23, 2009
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If he did I do not care. Sounds like everyone was doing something back then? And I would say half of them are doing something now. The cheating is just getting better.
I pulled this quote from velonews, it looks like the LA fans are ready to admit that he cheated and are at the acceptance stage. Of course, that also means that he lied to them for decades, which should be more difficult to accept.
 
Jul 23, 2010
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Ok now. A 30-page written opinion. Well-reasoned and well-written decision supporting the dismissal. So what are Armstrong's options at this point?

1. He can accept the USADA's proposed sanctions (lifetime ban on competition at a minimum....does anyone really know whether USADA has said also that he be stripped of all wins and prize money, or is that just a potential sanction) and elect not to participate in any arbitration with USADA. I think it's unlikely he'd do this, but what do I know? (Clearly not much if you ask some of the other members of the Clinic).

2. He can elect to go to arbitration with USADA, in which case the USADA Protocol, the WADA Code and the FAA will govern and USADA will have to insure that it acts to provide Armstrong with proper and timely notice of the evidence and an opportunity to examine such evidence sufficiently in advance of the hearing so that constitutional due-process rights are not violated and he can prepare and present a meaningful defense on the merits (assuming he has one). Judge Sparks was very clear in his 30-page opinion that at this point any such claim by Armstrong that his rights are being violated by USADA is premature and, likewise, Judge Sparks also noted that there's no reason to believe USADA will act in a manner contrary to the way their attorneys represented it would during oral argument (which is that it will provide such adequate notice and an opportunity to review the evidence). But if USADA does not so act, Judge Sparks' decision clearly leaves open the door for further litigation on this subject, both expressly (in the body of his opinion where he says so) and by legal implication because the dismissal order of the lawsuit was made "without prejudice". The latter ("without prejudice") means, in law, that with respect to the underlying claims Armstrong attempted to assert, the decision is not considered to be one "on the merits" and the court is not making any ruling on those claims, but rather instead held that it did not have sufficient jurisdiction to reach the issue of whether or not the claims had merit or not. Judge Sparks made this determination based on three grounds: (a) the court had no subject matter jurisdiction to determine the claims and (b) in any event, most of the claims were pre-empted by the Stevens Act --and thus not subject to litigation in federal courts-- and (c) as to any of the claims that might be justiciable in federal court, Judge Sparks exercised his discretion to decline to exercise the court's equitable jurisdiction to consider such claims at this time. [Note ETA: MarkvW and I have both previously agreed that whatever Judge Sparks decided would likely be deemed to be a "pure" issue of law, but I think this last ground for the dismissal implicates a different standard of review on appeal, i.e., "abuse of discretion" in which the question for the appellate court would be different than whether the judge committed an error of law which can be addressed by the appellate court de novo....but that's a whole different discussion than the one I intended to raise here].

3. Some here have also said that Armstrong might elect not to arbitrate in order to keep the evidence from being disclosed. I think he could do that, but I don't see it as a likely course of action. What many forget, and what the USADA Protocols and WADA Code (as set forth in Judge Sparks' decision) make clear is that even if Armstrong does elect to arbitrate, the proceedings are closed and private unless Armstrong elects to make the proceedings public. So, he can still participate in arbitration and keep the evidence (including testimony offered by USADA) out of the public view, and not sustain an immediate sanction. Remember, his main goal is going to be to drag this out so that the details never become public and even if he's sanctioned, the public never really finds out the depth of his violations and/or deception. So why he would choose to not arbitrate makes no sense.

I also think the same confidentiality rules apply in the event either side determines to appeal to the CAS (but I'm not 100% sure), i.e., in other words, only the athlete as the right to "solely" elect to make the proceedings public. And assuming the CAS were to uphold a decision by USADA to ban/sanction Armstrong, I don't know if an appeal to the Swiss Courts (the court of last resort in this thing) would or wouldn't be a public hearing or whether the athlete could, just as with the arbitration, keep the matter confidential and the details private. If anyone knows the answer to this latter question, I'd be interested knowing.

4. Armstrong can also file an appeal from the order of dismissal with the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals in New Orleans, but as MarkvW has noted, and as others here have also suggested, an appeal from the dismissal order will do him little good at this point, since the Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit is not likely to either grant any stay (and surely Judge Sparks will not do so either at this point), and even if the standard of review is for the most part "de novo", there's clearly enough "meat" in the opinion of Judge Sparks for any appellate court to hang its hat on if it decided to affirm, as a matter of law.

5. Another potential move at this point (not by Armstrong directly, but by proxy through the UCI)-- especially if the report in a message up-thread is accurate that Armstrong is making references in tweets to Race Radio about UCI ADR Rule 10(i)-- would be for UCI to file suit to enjoin USADA from proceeding forward, on the grounds that UCI has exclusive jurisdiction. If UCI were to do so, it would raise a whole host of problems for everyone, including as has been mentioned repeatedly here, USAC and UCI as well with respect to the IOC. It also raises a number of other questions, including where such a lawsuit would/should be filed (i.e., in the U.S., where USADA is based, or in Europe where UCI is based), and whether the dispute between the various governing bodies and agencies is even subject to being adjudicated judicially, or like the rest of this mess, would be subject to mandatory and binding arbitration (e.g., before the CAS) between the various governing bodies.

6. Clearly USADA is in the position of power now where it can proceed either with arbitration and/or sanctions, and it is not going to be enjoined unless it acts in a manner that is wholly inconsistent with the way it represented to Judge Sparks that it would. At least that much is now clear.

7. If Armstrong chooses not to participate in arbitration, then we might never know what the evidence against him was, at least not definitively. But IMO, he will elect to arbitrate and will opt to keep the arbitration proceedings confidential, because that's his right under the WADA Code and USADA Protocol. And if he does that, I don't believe anyone other than the participants are really going to know what the evidence is, perhaps ever, at least not until a final decision is reached, and perhaps not even then.

8. Others here have suggested that testimony and/or evidence could be leaked by USADA during an arbitration (or by some employee with access to the materials, acting as a "mole.") IMHO, if the testimony or evidence were to be leaked such that the athlete's rights of confidentiality under the WADA Code and USADA Protocol to keep the proceedings confidential are violated, this again would raise a number of other questions about what, if anything a federal court, and Judge Sparks in particular, might be willing to do, given some of the language in his 30-page decision), and it also raises questions about what the arbitrators could or might do with the arbitration in the event of a breach of confidentiality.

9. On the other hand, Armstrong just might decide to arbitrate and not keep the matter confidential or private, and simply let it all hang out there in full public view. I don't see any advantage to him, personally or professionally, in doing so, and as much as I think everyone here and in the public wants to know what the evidence is, who has provided testimony against him and what it consists of, if I were representing Armstrong and my client had the sole option to prevent these details from becoming public, it would be extremely foolish to advise the client to do anything else other than to keep it all as private and quiet as possible, if only to avoid the public relations disaster that will ensue as each detail comes out.

Anyway, onward and upward and let's see what happens next.
 
Jun 15, 2012
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QuickStepper said:
On the other hand, Armstrong just might decide to arbitrate and not keep the matter confidential or private, and simply let it all hang out there in full public view. I don't see any advantage to him doing so, and as much as I think everyone wants to know what the evidence is, and who testified and what they will say, if I were representing Armstrong and had the sole option to prevent these details from becoming public, it would be extremely foolish to advise the client to do anything else.

Anyway, onward and upward and let's see what happens next.


I am sorry this is the quote i meant to single out:

"If the testimony is leaked or the evidence revealed earlier (such that the athlete's rights of confidentiality under the WADA Code and USADA Protocol to keep the proceedings confidential are violated, this again would raise a number of other questions about what, if anything a federal court, and Judge Sparks in particular, might be willing to do, given some of the language in his 20-opage decision), and it also raises questions about what the arbitrators could or might do with the arbitration in the event of a breach of confidentiality. "


Might it be possible that Armstrongs camp actually leaks out minor details in order to raise those questions? Seems like a logical sneaky thing to try although I don't know where that might put the case.
 
Feb 1, 2011
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QuickStepper said:
So, he can still participate in arbitration and keep the evidence (including testimony offered by USADA) out of the public view.

USADA said in their statement:
“[snip]we look forward to a timely, public arbitration hearing in this case, should Mr. Armstrong choose, where the evidence can be presented, witness testimony will be given under oath and subject to cross examination[snip]”

If the arbitration hearing is non-public, the testimony is still under oath though, right?
 
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