USADA - Armstrong

[aphronesis]

I know that last night I wrote that under the WADA Code, the USADA is pretty limited in terms of what they can release to the public. I also looked at USADA Protocol 16, which also suggests that USADA is somewhat limited in what they can release to the public. But that same Section of the Protocols also allows them to "comment upon any aspect of the case."

Then we have the Velonation interview of Travis Tygart in which he unabashedly says that USADA will release the evidence to the public. I don't think he'd make a statement like that unless USADA really intended to release the evidence. While he might want to check with Bock before doing so, at this point, Tygart, who is also a lawyer and fully conversant with USADA's own Protocols, should be taken at his word. I think RR is right, there will be much more information released to the public about the details and the reasoning and rationale for the sanctions USADA has recommended be imposed in the next few weeks.

Not so sure which lawsuits are coming. SCA? I don't know, but I'd bet that even if a suit was filed by SCA, it's only got a minimal shot of succeeding. Any other lawsuits? Perhaps by ASO to recover the prize money paid for the 7 TdF wins that will be erased? Any other suits?

RR also says the Feds will continue to investigate. I'm not so sure about that. There is the qui tam suit filed by Landis, but that case has its own impediments, not the least of which is the named-Plaintiff's own difficulties. But you never know, someone in the justice department may have already made a decision that recovering sponsorship money paid by USPS is well-worth the time and effort it would take.

Criminal investigations? I don't see that. Not with the prior abandonment of the criminal investigation and the fact that any SOL would have run (and no, there's no Hellebuyck principal that would apply to any federal criminal investigation as far as I know).

I think it's going to be interesting to see how the rest of the USPS squad is treated by USADA and USAC in terms of sanctions. If USADA doesn't also issue lifetime bans to Vaughters, Hincapie, Leipheimer, etc., guys who, if they really testified they knew about Armstrong's systematic doping all these years and thus themselves participated in the same coverup and conspiracy that USADA says also justifies a lifetime ban for Armstrong, that could provide a basis for a further legal challenge to the sanctions (and that might be brought in federal court, since even if no CAS action is possible, it might still constitute a basis for a real denial of due process claim). From a pure PR point of view, for USADA any real disparate treatment of Armstrong's teammates would just smell bad would play right into the hands of Armstrong's pitch that he has been selectively prosecuted.

As much as I hate to say it, because I really like and admire guys like Hincapie, Leipheimer, et. al., if they knew, participated and also covered up, they should suffer the same fate as Armstrong in terms of sanctions: lifetime bans, no reduction for agreeing to testify (which clearly was under threats of bans and thus compulsion in the first instance), and forfeiture of wins, points and prize money.

If they all did it, treat them all the same, and let them all hang.

Yep. Let's see if that happens.....

 

[DirtyWorks]

One question: does it really matter much what UCI do in the next weeks?
After all, If UCI is implicated in one or more of those cover-ups that you mention then they will end up loosing the olympics anyway, right?

Yes, maybe, no. Yes it matters they do something in the eyes of the IOC that preserves the perception that the IOC is running a fair games. What? I don't know. I think we're going to find out just how much the UCI has picked winners as a result of the USADA stuff.

Since IOC members are oriented around the amount of money they can skim off the operation, maybe Pat and Hein can bribe their way out. Since the news broke the USOC was suppressing more than 100 positives in the 1990's today, the UCI might catch a break.

 

[Benotti69]

Not my point. My point is the USADA is just a waste of money. Congress calling athletes to testify before them is a huge waste of money. I really don't give a rats *** if Armstrong, Bonds, McGuire used dope when unemployment is 10%, our deficit is out of control and we are fighting a 10 year old war with no apparent victory even possible.

But you keep caring about the important stuff like athletes doping...

Maybe you should be on a military forum asking them why they are wasting billions in stupid gungho wars designed to keep USA joe public living in fear?

USADA have a job to do. They are woefully underfunded compared to the true scale of doping in sport.

Armstrong, Bonds and McGuire got rich by cheating. That meant guys who didn't cheat didn't get their true rewards.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

Not my point. My point is the USADA is just a waste of money. Congress calling athletes to testify before them is a huge waste of money. I really don't give a rats *** if Armstrong, Bonds, McGuire used dope when unemployment is 10%, our deficit is out of control and we are fighting a 10 year old war with no apparent victory even possible.

But you keep caring about the important stuff like athletes doping...

Obesity is costing the economy millions, sports are the answer to that and clean sporting idols in turn are important for that.

 

[eyemgh]

As an American tax payer ... WHAT A HUGE WASTE OF MONEY.

First, the tax payer angle has already been debunked, but more importantly, why is it a waste? Why is it a waste to act on rock solid evidence of doping that was used systematically by a team. All of the other riders cooperated. Wouldn't it have been a crime and a waste of the money that funds USADA if they hadn't followed up? I don't get the logic?

As for who gets the titles, that's easy, no one.

M

 

[Race Radio]

As an American tax payer ... WHAT A HUGE WASTE OF MONEY.

Interesting article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...ng-who-may-get-his-Tour-de-France-titles.html

Are they really going to strip him of all his titles to give them to other known dopers? Disqualify all of the known dopers and give the titles to guys who came in 20th (even though they were also clearly doping and just not caught)? There are no good options.

Oh and you've got to LOVE the onion:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/nondoping-cyclists-finish-tour-de-france,2268/

I agree. Lance attempt to disrupt USADA by filing in Federal court was a waste of taxpayer money. Good thing Judge Sparks is making Lance pay the court costs.

As for USADA's budget, Lance was smart enough to not fight them. This will save millions for USADA so no need to be concerned about their financial welfare

 

[Maxiton]

Which Drugs Is Lance Armstrong Accused of Taking?


Why Lance Armstrong Still Matters

 

[aphronesis]

Obesity is costing the economy millions, sports are the answer to that and clean sporting idols in turn are important for that.

Actually, commercial sports perpetuate that condition as much as they answer it.

Next?

 

[BroDeal]

McQuaid is in a tight spot right now.

I bet TeamGB Cycling are in a tizzy as they may not be at the next olympics.

McQuaid had better fall on his sword and in the process blame Verdrugthem.

IOC must be think Hein is gonna get a big load of brown stuff in the kisser about the 99TUE and TdS 01.

Time he fell on his sword too.

McQuaid may be in a better position now. Armstrong has painted himself into a corner. He cannot go back on yesterday's statement, admit that he doped, and pass the blame on to the system run by a corrupt governing body. Armstrong is stuck.

 

[thehog]

More press:

Armstrong: Nobody's buying the witch-hunt line, Lance

Excellent article. Short, concise and to the point.

According to my few sources in the U.S. cycling community, there's hardly a wet eye today among top U.S. racers, who have long been turned off by Armstrong's perceived arrogance. Of course, that kind of me-first attitude can help make people champions. It can also make them cheaters. It's a shame it turned Armstrong into the latter, because some of us really wanted to believe in him.

 

[Race Radio]

Thanks RR for your constant updates and thrilling insider infos. Really making this place worthwhile.

One question: does it really matter much what UCI do in the next weeks?
After all, If UCI is implicated in one or more of those cover-ups that you mention then they will end up loosing the olympics anyway, right?

There is evidence of the UCI covering up the 1999 Cortisone positive and the 2001 ToS positives. They also know that the UCI tried to get some witnesses to change their stories about these cover ups and also encouraged some witnesses to not talk with the Feds. I expect this will all come out.

If the UCI refuses to strip Lance, even after going to CAS, then cycling will be out of the Olympics. A far greater possibility is some of the key people at the UCI will be pushed out.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

No, I don't "expect" evidence. I'm telling you that based on the situation I don't see it. Now, or in the immediate future.

Interesting: I'd say there have been nothing but random points made the past several days. From countdowns to the deadline to possible ways of evading arbitration--never mind hour to hour play by play speculations as to "his state of mind". Didn't see you jumping in for any of that.

Not that it matters but I posted 11 times on this thread in the 24 hours preceding Armstrong's announcement - everything from arbitration to doing a word puzzle.

Go open up the Armstrong Fed thread and take a read through: see how many people talked about the financial and psychological hits. I'm not doing your research for you. Even go back in this thread. You'll find many speculating on the numbers.

stigma=ban=life is your interpretation. nothing more. others not deeply (or fetishistically) attached to the sport may well feel differently. He is a public figure,not simply an athlete.

That sounds like something Armstrong would come up with.

To the blue - he is a public figure, not simply an athlete - because of his own self promotion which made him known worldwide - its also why significant press coverage was devoted to him being stripped of his titles.
But he is now a public figure who is known simply as a doped athlete.

 

[TubularBills]

Any news on whether he has drunkenly smashed up the yellow jersey room yet? And then sat there in the wreckage, drinking beer and weeping.

That's my image of him now.

More likely he's trying on each of the seven yellow jerseys repeatedly while incessantly babbling, "my precious, my precious..." while gazing lovingly at his image in the mirror.

 

[serottasyclist]

As much as I hate to say it, because I really like and admire guys like Hincapie, Leipheimer, et. al., if they knew, participated and also covered up, they should suffer the same fate as Armstrong in terms of sanctions: lifetime bans, no reduction for agreeing to testify (which clearly was under threats of bans and thus compulsion in the first instance), and forfeiture of wins, points and prize money.

If they all did it, treat them all the same, and let them all hang.

I don't think there's any evidence that Hincapie, Leipheimer, et. al., actively participated in (1) covering up positive tests (2) distributing PEDs to teamates/encouraging teamates to use PEDs, etc., which is the basis of the lifetime ban. I'm not saying that none of them were involved in that, but I don't think USADA has any evidence of that. If there's no evidence the rider was involved in the conspiracy, then any rider that only talked about stuff they did outside the SOL period also won't be open to sanctioning.

 

[Turner29]

You selfish selfish man. At this rate I stand a shot of being the 11000 sooner than the 10000.

Its like trying to figure out who is going to be the TdF winner each of those years.

 

[Rockets160]

Lol, when will folks learn?

Guys been retired for 18 yrs, last win was 22 yrs ago, yet in that time, NO: REPORT/former teammate/coach/ANYONE has come forward w/ANY sort of "proof/evidence" to show he.has. Please post ANY CREDIBLE source.that claims.otherwise?

(birds chirp)..........

Why. the. hell. do. you. keep. putting. dang. periods.after. every. word. ?. aggrevating. boner. head.
funny how he knew we were talking about lemond when "tool" was the only word mentioned.

 

[guilder]

According to my few sources in the U.S. cycling community, there's hardly a wet eye today among top U.S. racers, who have long been turned off by Armstrong's perceived arrogance. Of course, that kind of me-first attitude can help make people champions. It can also make them cheaters. It's a shame it turned Armstrong into the latter, because some of us really wanted to believe in him.

that's hogwash. who gives a crap what racers think? Arrogance? what are you ten? All said and done Lance is still a hero. Has nothing to do with some technicalities of racing. His work ethic speaks loud and clear. Small minded haters have their work cut out for them for many years to come.

 

[Turner29]

More press:

Armstrong: Nobody's buying the witch-hunt line, Lance

Unfortunately, much of the public is. On a local club board, most still believe Armstrong. In fact, I am the only person steadfastly supporting the USADA and its findings.

In that forum, several of those supporting Armstrong are rational, intelligent individuals. Several others are flakes.

 

[Anonymous]

Any news on whether he has drunkenly smashed up the yellow jersey room yet? And then sat there in the wreckage, drinking beer and weeping.

That's my image of him now.

Nope. He's in SoCal on his bike.

 

[Benotti69]

that's hogwash. who gives a crap what racers think? Arrogance? what are you ten? All said and done Lance is still a hero. Has nothing to do with some technicalities of racing. His work ethic speaks loud and clear. Small minded haters have their work cut out for them for many years to come.

Oh dear another who bought the wrong myth. Ah well there is another one coming soon, stay tuned.

 

[thehog]

that's hogwash. who gives a crap what racers think? Arrogance? what are you ten? All said and done Lance is still a hero. Has nothing to do with some technicalities of racing. His work ethic speaks loud and clear. Small minded haters have their work cut out for them for many years to come.

The sound of clutching straws....

Hero? Really. A man who injects himself with sludge & can't admit it?

You take your hero. We don't need him. He's proven today he's a loser.

Nothing. Zero.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

As always optimistic. That´s why i love your posts soo much.

So what is next?

In the next 2 weeks USADA will release a torrent of information. In addition there will be over 300 pages of info in another form coming sooner then expected. Follow this up with interviews with some of the key witnesses and the UCI stripping lance of everything as they know the risk is too large

And then come the lawsuits.....

and then come the investigation and exposure of multiple coverups

And then come the Feds

.....it's not over

 

[The Hitch]

They were going slower!

time trial speeds were the same. Cant measure mountains with no mtfs.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

Are you referring to Tyler's book, or can we expect other sources of information?

John Swanson

listen to the Tagart interview on dan Patrick, apologies if this has been addressed after the post was put up. Can't work and post at the same time! Danged WORK. wtf.

 

[eyemgh]

listen to the Tagart interview on dan Patrick, apologies if this has been addressed after the post was put up. Can't work and post at the same time! Danged WORK. wtf.

+1

Brilliant.

M