USADA - Bruyneel, Celaya, Garcial del Moral, Ferrari, Marti

[Zinoviev Letter]

Maybe, maybe not. He took an approach that was different than most in setting up his own junior team and got lucky in that he met Doug Ellis. Maybe if that meeting had never happened, JV might be an irrelevance.

Or if he'd never doped, washed out early as a pro and got into some more profitable line of business, maybe he'd be a lot richer.

 

[pmcg76]

Plenty of caught dopers still living it large. Apart from Frankie and Landis, all others in USPS have kept their ill gotten gains!

Yes plenty never caught.

Vaughters made the decision to retire. Kudos for that, but he was hardly going to starve. Plenty in the sport have to dope to make a living, wrongly but that was what their families prepared them for.

When I lived in Italy I witnessed kids (as young as 8 and 9 year olds) skipping school to train motor pacing behind their dads scooters . These will have little to fall back on should they not take the doping route.

Wait, how has Frankie lost his earnings from USPS? Floyd blew his earnings by his own choices in trying to claim he didn't dope.

Trying to claim that other rider's would have starved if they hadn't doped is pure hyperbole. Hardly JVs fault he came from a middle-class family. So you are saying it's ok to dope now if you come from a poor background. The ever moving goalposts of Benotti.

 

[pmcg76]

Or if he'd never doped, washed out early as a pro and got into some more profitable line of business, maybe he'd be a lot richer.

I think it is widely known that Roman Kreuziger's family are wealthy owing to his father having a very successful business. Few realise that Kreuziger Senior was a pro himself for 2 seasons with the Navigare team in the early 90s. He wasn't very successful as a pro yet things probably worked out far better for him than if he had remained a pro rider scratching around on the small Italian teams.

Didn't one of those guys from USPS who didn't dope end up having a very successful life away from cycling. Darren Baker or was it Mercer? Probably made way more money than if he had started doping. Becoming a pro is not the way to go if you want to become super-rich.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

I think it is widely known that Roman Kreuziger's family are wealthy owing to his father having a very successful business. Few realise that Kreuziger Senior was a pro himself for 2 seasons with the Navigare team in the early 90s. He wasn't very successful as a pro yet things probably worked out far better for him than if he had remained a pro rider scratching around on the small Italian teams.

Didn't one of those guys from USPS who didn't dope end up having a very successful life away from cycling. Darren Baker or was it Mercer?

Yes. Even leaving aside the few who go on to make serious money after the sport, very many pros would be better off in terms of lifetime earnings if they had failed at a youngish age rather than spending their youth as a domestique. Doping enabled lots of them to make a living riding a bike. It by no means left most of them rich afterwards.

Now, it should be said that this didn't really apply to most of Armstrong's chief lieutenants. They weren't back markers doping to keep a job. The likes of a Hamilton or a Leipheimer were not being paid a supermarket cashier's wage.

 

[Benotti69]

Wait, how has Frankie lost his earnings from USPS? Floyd blew his earnings by his own choices in trying to claim he didn't dope.

I dont think Frankie was well paid by USPS. He only rode for 2 seasons, hardly going to be enough to retire on.

Floyd blew his earnings on a stupid case.

Trying to claim that other rider's would have starved if they hadn't doped is pure hyperbole. Hardly JVs fault he came from a middle-class family. So you are saying it's ok to dope now if you come from a poor background. The ever moving goalposts of Benotti.

Reread my post. I never claim that but you have poisoned your own opinion that you misread more and in the negative as per usual. Easy to retire when you have someone to fall back on. Not so easy when your whole extended family are invested in you.

But you know it all as usual. Go do one.

 

[Race Radio]

No but Hincapie, Levi and others are. But Frankie suffered in other ways and has paid more than a 2 year ban, but Vaughters he did no time!

Agreed. Hincapie has really skated with limited damage. He benefited hugely from doping, went full gas for a decade, and walked with all of his $$$$. Lance and Johan should have taken USADA up on their offer.

 

[Race Radio]

JV is making a nice living these days isnt he? Do you think he would be where he is today if he hadnt juiced?

Yes.

JV was selling real estate, running a small U23 team, until he met Ellis. Doping has little to do with knowing how to run a team, keep a lean budget, and get sponsors. Doubt TIAACREF sponsored him because he won a TT on Ventoux

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Agreed. Hincapie has really skated with limited damage. He benefited hugely from doping, went full gas for a decade, and walked with all of his $$$$. Lance and Johan should have taken USADA up on their offer.

Yes, he made a tactical decision to flip right when his back was to the wall and pulled it off perfectly. He even managed to get away with his reputation amongst fans (and thus future earning potential) in part intact.

Best card player of the bunch.

 

[Benotti69]

Yes, he made a tactical decision to flip right when his back was to the wall and pulled it off perfectly. He even managed to get away with his reputation amongst fans (and thus future earning potential) in part intact.

Best card player of the bunch.

Nope just lucky.

 

[Race Radio]

Yes, he made a tactical decision to flip right when his back was to the wall and pulled it off perfectly. He even managed to get away with his reputation amongst fans (and thus future earning potential) in part intact.

Best card player of the bunch.

Huh?

Vaughters flipped a decade ago, well before any of his riders, Floyd, or Tyler did.

 

[Benotti69]

Huh?

Vaughters flipped a decade ago, well before any of his riders, Floyd, or Tyler did.

ZV was posting about Hincapie.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Nope just lucky.

There was certainly luck involved, but he maximised his percentages well. Flipping earlier than he did would have gained him nothing and caused him possible problems, not flipping would have destroyed him.

He may be the only player who made the right call in a game theory sense at every stage.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Huh?

Vaughters flipped a decade ago, well before any of his riders, Floyd, or Tyler did.

What?

GH not JV.

 

[hrotha]

I'm reading the document and it's kinda... underwhelming. Of course they had more than enough to nail Bruyneel and company, but it's still disappointing that they just reused the same witnesses, even when what they said fell outside of the SOL, instead of getting anything new from Discovery or Astana. For all I know, they tried and no one else was willing to speak, but still, it's a bummer.

 

[pmcg76]

I dont think Frankie was well paid by USPS. He only rode for 2 seasons, hardly going to be enough to retire on.

Floyd blew his earnings on a stupid case.



Reread my post. I never claim that but you have poisoned your own opinion that you misread more and in the negative as per usual. Easy to retire when you have someone to fall back on. Not so easy when your whole extended family are invested in you.

But you know it all as usual. Go do one.

And how many cyclist in the last 20 years have been like that. The only one's I have heard about are the Colombians. Perhaps you could tell us of some pro cyclist's who fall into that category. As I said pure hyperbole, taking stories from the 70/80s and moving them forward a few decades to try and make your point. If such a pro still exists, they are a very rare exception.

 

[Berzin]

Ladies and Gentlemen-

1) Chill with the expletives.

2) Enough of the JV talk. He's got his own thread. Go there to discuss him.

 

[Race Radio]

I'm reading the document and it's kinda... underwhelming. Of course they had more than enough to nail Bruyneel and company, but it's still disappointing that they just reused the same witnesses, even when what they said fell outside of the SOL, instead of getting anything new from Discovery or Astana. For all I know, they tried and no one else was willing to speak, but still, it's a bummer.

Agreed. I am amazed Johan took it to arbitration. He based his entire case on jurisdiction, something that has been settled over and over. He then refused to testify.

I have heard from multiple people that Johan has lost touch with reality, taking this case to arbitration might be the most public example of this.

 

[Benotti69]

Agreed. I am amazed Johan took it to arbitration. He based his entire case on jurisdiction, something that has been settled over and over. He then refused to testify.

I have heard from multiple people that Johan has lost touch with reality, taking this case to arbitration might be the most public example of this.

Is Johan chasing white lines?

 

[fmk_RoI]

Martin Hardie's testimony.

Any comments, anyone?

 

[fmk_RoI]

Agreed. I am amazed Johan took it to arbitration.

He did get a win on the SoL. And possession. And Landis's evidence. So not a total whitewash for the Belgian.

 

[Catwhoorg]

10 years for JB is less than I would have hoped for (LIFE), but assuming he doesn't appeal to CAS I am just glad he is gone from Cycling.

Even after the ban, he is going to be out of touch and heavily tainted. No sensible team (even one that had a team program) would want to be associated with him.

Lighter sentences for the other two I understand as well.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Martin Hardie's testimony.

Any comments, anyone?

Where can it be found?

 

[Race Radio]

Martin Hardie's testimony.

Any comments, anyone?

comically bad.....as expected. Martin seems desperate to insert himself into things and then mess them up

 

[fmk_RoI]

comically bad.....as expected. Martin seems desperate to insert himself into things and then mess them up

The emails blowing it out of the water - they must have been part of Celaya's disclosure surely? Didn't they even read what they were giving the other side? I mean an email that says: "Think we can agree that swearing ‘Floyd Landis told me that dr [sic] Celaya was never involved in EPO transactions or blood doping or transfusions logistics’ is not perjury, can’t we?" What were they thinking submitting that? Were they even thinking? And what was Hardie doing getting involved in that in the first place?

 

[roundabout]

I'm reading the document and it's kinda... underwhelming. Of course they had more than enough to nail Bruyneel and company, but it's still disappointing that they just reused the same witnesses, even when what they said fell outside of the SOL, instead of getting anything new from Discovery or Astana. For all I know, they tried and no one else was willing to speak, but still, it's a bummer.

Sanchez being a witness for Marti is kinda new.

But not particularly surprising.