Valverde Appeal To CAS

[nobody]

Hey, the law is the law, it doesn't have to imitate justice ... it is justice.

Anyone enough circular arguments for on this topic. CAS will overturn CONI, UCI should have overturned CONI but didn't have the balls and that will be the end of the matter.

You are confusing Italian laws and Spanish laws. Why don't Valverde sue CONI in Italia? If there is no Justice I'm sure he will win his case.
If Spaniards have made an error by sending Valverde's blood in Italia, that is not a fact to refuse the case. Italians have done nothing wrong, they have just got the proofs they needed.

 

[subzro]

Fuentes had no agreement to store blood, no agreement to transport blook especially outside medical control, and so... there is a lot of broken medical laws.
Why Fuentes is not prosecute on those points? Because all involved athletes would be named.

I' m picking you're not aware Fuentes is actually Dr Fuentes? You do realise it's not illegal for a Doctor to store blood?

Come on guys, this is elementary stuff you're argueing here.

 

[BroDeal]

The solution to this is pretty easy. Valverde should make a secret $500,000 payment to the UCI. The UCI will then commission Vrijman to write a bogus report about why Valverde's doping cannot be considered doping because of technicalities in the doping rules. After Vrijman "exonerates" Valverde, we can all rest easy that Valverde is clean.

 

[biker jk]

I don't think you will get any argument that anti better doping systems, laws and tests will benefit pro cycling, certainly not one from me. But, that's an argument for now and in the future. Valverdes case will get judged on the law as it stands now, and rightly so. Anything else will be a grotesque parody of justice!

The only parody of justice will be if Valverde isn't punished despite CONI having proved his blood was with Dr Fuentes. Why don't the Spanish co-operate with the Italians if they are truly against doping (which is a particular problem in Spain)?

 

[Aguirre]

You are confusing Italian laws and Spanish laws. Why don't Valverde sue CONI in Italia? If there is no Justice I'm sure he will win his case.
If Spaniards have made an error by sending Valverde's blood in Italia, that is not a fact to refuse the case. Italians have done nothing wrong, they have just got the proofs they needed.

you are wrong, the spaniards didn't sent any blood bag to italy, the italians went to Madrid knowing the judge of the case was in hollidays, and cheating they got the bag using tricks, cause the substitute of the judge wasn't adviced or through negligency!!!! that's Torri's mafia way of dealing, to violate the law for his Crussade!

 

[nobody]

I' m picking you're not aware Fuentes is actually Dr Fuentes? You do realise it's not illegal for a Doctor to store blood?

Come on guys, this is elementary stuff you're argueing here.

Do you believe that every doctor in Spain can store blood without check and control of their procedures and equipement?
In that case, Fuentes has no agreement to store blood for transfusion.

And he or his personnal broke French laws that request an authorization to travel with blood or vital organs! They should be prosecuted to in France, especially after Manzano's problem, they have put in danger his live.

Finally, are you saying that Spain has the same medical requierement than poor Africaan countries?
By your standard you will never complain of procedures not follow by a WADA lab

 

[Aguirre]

You are obviously someone with serious critical judgment problems, and perhaps worse.

Torri is legit. CONI is not a mafia organization (not everthing, you know, in Italy is mafia related which is racist sentiment anyway). The DNA match is perfectly credible, unless you believe they dumped the blood in the Fuente's sack and replaced it with Valverde's.

No if there is anybody to critisize here as mafioso, it is the Spanish judge who is protecting the omerta by not opening up OP.
Valverde doesn't have to have doped to be banned, because any blood stored by Fuentes is enough on grounds of "attempted doping" which is the same ofense as actual doping in the eyes of the UCI. It's what Basso recieved his 2 years out for.

Your rational here is completely moronic and even racist in its accusations against Torri.

Bravo! look here one who believes in justice and law! and who believes in Torri too. I like italians a lot, but I have serious doubts in the rightness of this procedure by CONI. just that!

 

[Aguirre]

How could you complain about hypocrisis when you write something like that?

Explain more man! it seems some of you being lawyers or criminalist rather than cycling fans.

 

[rhubroma]

Bravo! look here one who believes in justice and law! and who believes in Torri too. I like italians a lot, but I have serious doubts in the rightness of this procedure by CONI. just that!

So you rather put your faith in the lameness comming out of Spain? CONI pursued its own riders with aplumb. What the friggin hell have the Spanish done? And you believe Valverde? A pro cyclist? Their the best professional liars around. And he has never once denied that the bloodsack was his nor the acuracy of the DNA test, whereas his entire defense rests on the legal jurisdiction CONI he claims didn't have to do what it has done. So following such logic, Valverde is morally but not legally guilty. Lame, very lame. Almost as lame as your arguments.

 

[nobody]

Explain more man! it seems some of you being lawyers or criminalist rather than cycling fans.

Is your post not a bit hypocrite?

 

[rhubroma]

Hey, the law is the law, it doesn't have to imitate justice ... it is justice.

Anyone enough circular arguments for on this topic. CAS will overturn CONI, UCI should have overturned CONI but didn't have the balls and that will be the end of the matter.

So if Hitler comes back and says it's ok, it's the law, to through jews back in the furnaces again you'd have no problems with it cause it's the law. Man it really takes very little for people to become sheep and not be able to use there brains anymore.

 

[toppermost]

So if Hitler comes back and says it's ok, it's the law, to through jews back in the furnaces again you'd have no problems with it cause it's the law. Man it really takes very little for people to become sheep and not be able to use there brains anymore.

idiot. if hitler came back and killed anyone for any reason that would be disgusting.

on the other if hitler made the effort to cross the space/time continuam to make someone sit out the last half of a football game, because they were a known cheat, i would care less because its a silly childrens GAME.

valverde is a cheat. he was caught. italy is correct.

 

[Bala Verde]

So if Hitler comes back and says it's ok, it's the law, to through jews back in the furnaces again you'd have no problems with it cause it's the law. Man it really takes very little for people to become sheep and not be able to use there brains anymore.

Sorry rhubroma, but I seriously don't see what the analogy is here. No "jews" are being thrown in any furnace due to following any laws in Spain, or Italy for that matter. It is not that grave, we are talking about cycling here...

The issue, as far as I have followed it in the thread, is not about 'it being the law'. There was no anti-doping law at the time of the 'offense' in Spain. What can any judge do in such a situation, make up the law? Without an appropriate mechanism, public prosecutors still tried to some, amongst them fuentes, convicted for violations of public health laws. However, since it was the cyclists own blood that would be reinjected, the judge decided that the criteria for violations of public health were not met. Hence, and unfortunately, Fuentes is still a free bird, who allegedly, moved to Gran Canaria.

The failure to get Fuentes convicted is much more important then then the suspension of ANY cyclist (IMO)

En estos momentos ejerce la medicina como ginecólogo en un centro de salud de Gran Canaria, con un sueldo de 2.500 euros mensuales.

Curiosamente, coincidiendo con el retorno de Fuentes a las Islas Canarias se ha producido un aumento del número de deportistas de élite que realizan entrenamientos de preparación en dicho archipiélago (incluyendo antiguos clientes de Fuentes) sin que de momento haya trascendido la existencia de una relación directa entre estos hechos.

So who is residing in Gran Canaria, or who was preparing for the Giro or other events on one of the big islands... Training at high altitudes on el Teide...

 

[nobody]

you are wrong, the spaniards didn't sent any blood bag to italy, the italians went to Madrid knowing the judge of the case was in hollidays, and cheating they got the bag using tricks, cause the substitute of the judge wasn't adviced or through negligency!!!! that's Torri's mafia way of dealing, to violate the law for his Crussade!

It's not cheating to cheat a corrupt system to protect their athletes who had stolen fames and moneys of others athletes!

I heard that Spanish Police were not happy with Judge decision. I suppose there is a lot of Spanish who are thinking the same. Could some of them have given the famous blood to Italians ?

 

[VeloFidelis]

The guy has a DNA match with a Fuentes bloodsack, and people like you are defending him, calling the Italians corrupt (and not Valverde), etc. That's overwhelming...without even being ironic.

Look, you seem to think that you have a better grasp of the facts than anyone else... you don't. You seem to think that you understand my opinions on Valverde, or doping... you don't. And you are damned judgmental for a guy who doesn't know much, but that's OK, you're in good company.

There are plenty of people posting here that, like you, don't give a sh!t about how they get their justice. They're just ****ed off, emotional and irrational like you. And since they know the the blood belongs to Valverde (and we all know that), they are willing to throw out the rule book just to burn his ***.

There are plenty of people posting here who are also ****ed off and would like to see Valverde get suspended. They are just not willing to support vigilante justice to do it. This argument is not about nationalism, hero worship, or condoning doping like many here seem to want to make it.

Valverde is a cheat. He broke the rules, just like Basso, Ulrich, Schleck, Contador, Sanchez, Davis.... They should all get what they deserve. But if you advocate breaking the rules in order to do that, then that, then you are condoning cheating as well. Personally, I am not willing to do that.

 

[rhubroma]

idiot. if hitler came back and killed anyone for any reason that would be disgusting.

on the other if hitler made the effort to cross the space/time continuam to make someone sit out the last half of a football game, because they were a known cheat, i would care less because its a silly childrens GAME.

valverde is a cheat. he was caught. italy is correct.

Woo, hold on a minute there Jack and you can shove that idiot remark up your friggen arsh...

My point was in response to someone who suggested that the law is this monolithic, infallable thing and that it is justice itself. It is not and there have been many instances when sometimes the law causes great injustices.

Hitler made lots of horrendous laws, for example, and they were obeyed religiously by an entire state for years following such logic, that the law is the law and that's it, before something drastic came about.

 

[toppermost]

Agreed. You are probably not an idiot. Evidenced by your clear thinking on this ridiculous defense of Valverde and the his doping apologists. I blame the lack of caffeine in my system at 0630 hours when I wrote that.

However it was an idiotic thing to say. The two are incomparable. And in a way it only gives more creedance to those who say CONI has dones something wrong.

Doping "law" debates have no comparsion at all to debates on real "law." I know I keep repeating myself here... but: the apologists have completely lost their perspective. They are bat ****e crazy to say poor Valv Piti's rights are being trampled. He is a doper. It is a child's game, that he plays and they are trying to help him get away with cheating at it simply because Spain is too corrupt to enforce its own laws.

 

[rhubroma]

Agreed. You are probably not an idiot. Evidenced by your clear thinking on this ridiculous defense of Valverde and the his doping apologists. I blame the lack of caffeine in my system at 0630 hours when I wrote that.

However it was an idiotic thing to say. The two are incomparable. And in a way it only gives more creedance to those who say CONI has dones something wrong.

Doping "law" debates have no comparsion at all to debates on real "law." I know I keep repeating myself here... but: the apologists have completely lost their perspective. They are bat ****e crazy to say poor Valv Piti's rights are being trampled. He is a doper. It is a child's game, that he plays and they are trying to help him get away with cheating at it simply because Spain is too corrupt to enforce its own laws.

Your taking a step back on the idiot comment is much appreciated thanks.

PS. Take a look at my response to BalaVerde in regards to whay I made that point, which, was perverse, but why I made it...

 

[Bala Verde]

PS. Take a look at my response to BalaVerde in regards to whay I made that point, which, was perverse, but why I made it...

What do I have to do with it?

 

[rhubroma]

Sorry rhubroma, but I seriously don't see what the analogy is here. No "jews" are being thrown in any furnace due to following any laws in Spain, or Italy for that matter. It is not that grave, we are talking about cycling here...
.

Come on BalaVerde, wasn't it obvious that I was making a gross exaggeration to make a point? And while it may have seemed rather perverse, for it was really, it was simply a reaction to someone saying, in effect, that the law is infallable and that it is justice itself, thus we obey.

Frankly it is a mentallity that frightens the heck out of me. Therefore my natural comparison with such an outlook, which is to me the real perversion, to the laws which governed Nazi Germany. Thus I was combating something perverse by citing an even greater perversion. That's all.

So the point I was trying to make was that the law is at best tool of justice, and not justice itself, but it can also just as easily become, as it has so many times in the past (but also the present), a tool of injustice.

To me the jurisdiction alibi upon which Valverde is basing his entire defense, is a case where the law is not being put to the service of justice but to the contrary. Whereas blind adhearance to "the law" can, and has been, a crutch upon which the worst atrocities of history have been sustained.

Naturally I'm not suggesting that a doping offence can be associated with the worst atocities of history. In fact my exaggerated comparison was in reference to blind adhearence to the law itself as a potential perversion of law and how it should be constantly reassesed (or even during the worst cases and in the name of justice flagrantly disobeyed) when an obvious injustice is commited in its name.

 

[Bala Verde]

Come on BalaVerde, wasn't it obvious that I was making a gross exaggeration to make a point? And while it may have seemed rather perverse, for it was really, it was simply a reaction to someone saying, in effect, that the law is infallable and that it is justice itself, thus we obey.

You mentioned my name in reference to a post I had supposedly made (ie as instigator of the Hitler-argument.) I think you made that in response to subzro's post "the law is the law". Since I had not posted anything before you made the Hitler argument, I didn't understand why you told toppermost that your Hitler argument was in response to me...

So the point I was trying to make was that the law is at best tool of justice, and not justice itself, but it can also just as easily become, as it has so many times in the past (but also the present), a tool of injustice.

The law never questions itself, it is, in the end, the law, and for that alone it cannot be equated with justice. On top of that, the law demands that the judge adjudicates similarly in all similar cases, hence turning the law into a perversion of justice. To do justice is to make a decision, to weigh, to balance and recognize the offense as a singular event. The law however, requires the judge to follow precedents, to decide bureaucratically, and follow prior decisions made in similar cases. The law is therefore far from just. Here we agree.

To me the jurisdiction alibi upon which Valverde is basing his entire defense, is a case where the law is not being put to the service of justice but to the contrary. Whereas blind adhearance to "the law" can, and has been, a crutch upon which the worst atrocities of history have been sustained.

On the other hand, when Bush says that human rights/the law can be suspended in order to protect the nation, or the greater good, encarcerate presumed terrorists untill indefinitely, get them to talk, without offering a fair trial, I think that constitutes a perversion of the law.

Now I don't know if you agreed with toppermost, who seemed to claim that doping laws are not 'real laws' but mere 'bylaws' or game-like rules and regulations, but current anti-doping laws, as evidenced in Austria, France, and I believe Spain now as well, have turned doping and administration of doping, into criminal offenses.

In those cases, I'd rather see that all accused do get treated according to minimal human rights laws, such as a presumption of evidence, the prohibition on double jeopardy, prohibition on retroactive application of the law, the right to appeal, the right to a trial without undue delay etc.

So when someones replicates Bush, and argues that certain fair trial guarantees can be suspended, in order to protect the greater good of cycling, and do justice, I think a greater perversion is done. Justice thus seems to lie in the eye of the beholder.

You find it injust that some, the Basso's, have been convicted and suspended for (attempt to) doping. I find it also injust that others have not served the same fate, who have committed similar or identical offenses. Nonetheless, I find it a greater injustice to not follow certain basic guarantees that assure the protection of individuals when balanced against 'the greater good of a doping free sport'. That, the suspension of these individual, and basic guarantees, was one of the main offenses that enabled some to "throw Jews in the furnace"...

That obviously does not mean that the laws are infallible, and they should be reassessed from time to time. However, to 'get someone convicted' in the name of justice, seems to be a perversion of justice itself...

 

[Not Riding Enough]

You mentioned my name in reference to a post I had supposedly made (ie as instigator of the Hitler-argument.) I think you made that in response to subzro's post "the law is the law". Since I had not posted anything before you made the Hitler argument, I didn't understand why you told toppermost that your Hitler argument was in response to me...
...

That obviously does not mean that the laws are infallible, and they should be reassessed from time to time. However, to 'get someone convicted' in the name of justice, seems to be a perversion of justice itself...

Hey Bala, you actually raised the Nazis first in another related thread ;-)

06-18-09, 19:01 Bye, bye Alejandro
Posted By Bala Verde
"Do you have any examples? The only one I recall is when the allied victors started the Nuremberg Trials trying Nazis of having committed 'crimes against humanity' and 'genocide', which at that point... "


You are probably correct with the ways the laws are currently but I liked your point about needing to review laws. Laws can be changed and yes, even to act retrospectively (although constitutions may also need to change). Of course it would be difficult and perhaps even a dangerous precedent to do so but it could be done. Again I would argue it should not be for criminal law but only to allow sporting sanctions.

Most people just want the right thing done and it could even be done the right way if the will was there.

 

[rhubroma]

You find it injust that some, the Basso's, have been convicted and suspended for (attempt to) doping. I find it also injust that others have not served the same fate, who have committed similar or identical offenses. Nonetheless, I find it a greater injustice to not follow certain basic guarantees that assure the protection of individuals when balanced against 'the greater good of a doping free sport'. That, the suspension of these individual, and basic guarantees, was one of the main offenses that enabled some to "throw Jews in the furnace"...
.

I agree in principle with the general line of your argument. And I am certainly one who would rather see a guilty criminal not get convicted instead of an innocent person convicted of a crime which he didn't commit. That the law needs to offer certain basic gaurantees and individual protections against other individuals or institutions goes without saying in the post Enlightment age.

I just don't think that in Valverde's case these basic gaurantees are neither at risk nor even at stake. Rather what is at stake here is the legitimicy of the entire anti-doping movement and the credibility of cycling with OP. That's why certain jurisdiction laws I would prefer to see eliminated in order to promote more international cooperation in the fight against doping. And to take the advantage out of the sly lawyers' courts who can exploit the inherent weakness of the legal structure, such as they are, which as a result may allow Valverde to get away with murder.

 

[EricBikeCO]

possible doping = bad; actually taking cocaine = fine

Regardless of what anyone may or may not have done, I fail to see how Valverde is at the top of the hit list. Boonen was 100% caught on the powder and admits it. Why is he not out for 2 years ... or permanently since it is his third time? Isn't this about setting an example to kids or something like that?

With that said, I don't care for Valverde from what I have seen and read; there is just some kind of vibe I don't like. Conversely, I like the way Boonen tackles the Classics. Not sure what has happened to his sprinting in general ... maybe his lungs are not up to par with all that dust in them?

For me this is about equity not some excuse to get rid of this guy or that guy.

I really am unclear as to what the point of all this blood passport, anti-doping hoo haw is if you don't get a rider out of the peloton who is snorting his paycheck ... especially when a lot of these guys are "guilty" on some set of pseudo-random circumstantial "evidence" (Caucchioli et al).

If any one of them is taking anything, I would want to be first in line to stomp on their crotch with my carbon-soled Sidi's, but until you have evidence ...

 

[BroDeal]

Regardless of what anyone may or may not have done, I fail to see how Valverde is at the top of the hit list. Boonen was 100% caught on the powder and admits it. Why is he not out for 2 years ... or permanently since it is his third time? Isn't this about setting an example to kids or something like that?

F*ck the kids. Doing coke on your own time is not against the rules. Will we start banning riders for cheating on their wives next?