The Hitch said:From my experience easily the most fair minded poster in the history of the forum.
Hmmm, might that be sarcasm?
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The Hitch said:From my experience easily the most fair minded poster in the history of the forum.
gooner said:Wiggins has been vehemently anti-doping in public in a sport where many riders adhere to an omerta and you just scoffed at it. Just look at his numerous interviews in the 2007 Tour where he lashed out on Vino and Rasmussen and before the Tour last year when he said in some cases people should be even locked up. He also lashed out against Di Luca and Bruyneel in the past for the signing of Basso and called it a disgrace. Yet when a rider adheres to the omerta on certain issues and they say nothing people are immediately jumping on his case. Make up your mind what do people want? Do we want to listen to people speak out on it or stay shut about it? Also he has has tried to raise the suspicion off himself when he released his blood profiles(even tough he was advised not to) and yet that is still not enough for people. So how is he going to prove his innocence to you if people are always going to have this suspicion no matter what? No matter what he does for you is'nt enough. You will always come out with the same mantra "autobus to 4th" and have this suspicion that you love in this forum.
You never hear the Schlecks, Contador, Sanchez or many other top riders speak out on vehemently against doping in the past. This is something that Paul Kimmage has also criticised Contador and the Schlecks in the past about and he has said before he also likes Wiggins attitude to this. This is why I am inclined to believe him a lot more than others and why I hold him up as more of an example than the riders I just mentioned above.
Ripper said:Hmmm, might that be sarcasm?
Kind of ironic don't you think?The Hitch said:The truth always sounds like lies to a sinner.
gooner said:I am inclined to believe Garmin a lot more than a lot of other teams. Just look at what they did to Matt White when he sent one of their riders to the former US Postal doctor and he got sacked for it. That was a tough decision for them but they did it to protect their principles and philosophies.
FabulousCandelabra said:Thomas Knox writes in the velonews comments "C.V. exemplifies everything good about cycling. What a humble guy, many forget that aside from a bad patch 1 kilo from the top of the final climb of stage 16 in the TDF C.V.could have won the TDF."
What is he talking about??
gooner said:Vandevelde knows exactly what has happened and if he was to talk about the past he would be only bringing up Lance and all that stuff. ...(snip for brevity)
....Jonathan Vaughters apologised to Tondo for when he used the same exact same basis as that one for deciding not to sign him. He apologised for this after Tondo whistleblew the doping ring in Catalonia. I think Vaughters sums it up best in this piece:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/jonathan-vaughters/connecting-the-dots
This is what the clinic is always guilty of and I take issue with.
gooner said:When I asked him for the "fragmentary information, rumours and some hard evidence here and there" with regards to his suspicion of Wiggins and Hesjedal he could'nt come up with anything. I asked him for this "fragmentary information, rumours and hard evidence here and there" as he said he uses this method in his discussions in the clinic to "reconstruct a coherent picture".In the end he came up with nothing. Also he admits to joining the dots in his discussions in the clinic so I suggest read the link to the piece I posted to Jonathan Vaughters which will tell you everthing that is wrong with this method of discussion in the clinic. In the end this joining of the dots that Vaughters goes on about, just ends up with everything turning into doping gossip with no backbone to anything. His story is the best example of this.
hiero2 said:From here: velonews /2012/06/ vande-velde-we-won-the-giro-with-chip-on-our-shoulders
This quote:
VN: What does it mean to the Garmin organization to win this Giro?
VdV: It’s almost incomprehensible. When we started in 2008, at that point in time, we didn’t even think it was possible to win a grand tour. This is really a litmus test for clean sport and how far the sport has come. It’s a great thing for our team and for our sport in general. We never would have thought this would have been possible. That’s how far our sport has come.
Libertine Seguros said:Allen Lim, who worked at Garmin and oversaw Vande Velde and Wiggins' transformations into GC riders, was closely tied to US Postal and that investigation, so you can perhaps see why some take the talk of Garmin as a super clean team with a pinch of salt as they turn another rider of around 30 or even more and turn them into a GC contender.
gooner said:Wiggins has been vehemently anti-doping in public in a sport where many riders adhere to an omerta and you just scoffed at it. Just look at his numerous interviews in the 2007 Tour where he lashed out on Vino and Rasmussen and before the Tour last year when he said in some cases people should be even locked up. He also lashed out against Di Luca and Bruyneel in the past for the signing of Basso and called it a disgrace.
Well --- no. Garmin has been consistently anti, and started the team with that team (sic, should be theme, my mistake). As far as I am concerned, they have lived up to that ideal in their everyday actions. De Gendt turns in a miracle performance, and you aren't suspicious? I will tell you this - in the 90's, when the French crowds greeted Lance with shouts of "Dope'! Dope'!" I said innocent until proven. And I did not believe the cries of "Dope'!". But, too much spilt milk - I find that case proven. But, fool me once, fool me twice, all that? What makes you think that maybe De Gendt is not going for a "fool you twice" performance?Caruut said:Garmin wins, everyone is cleaner!
De Gendt wins, he is dirty!
hrotha said:The usual points about cycling having gone so far and being so clean now, without EVER acknowledging openly where it was, how it changed, why it changed, who changed and who didn't, so that the same kind of talk can be recycled time and time again. And we've been hearing it since 1999.
hrotha said:Way to miss the point. Vande Velde clearly didn't acknowledge where cycling was. What he saw. What he's been personally involved in. He's repeating the same thing we've been hearing from 1999. That's 13 years of this "cycling is now practically clean" thing. At some point, we're going to have to demand actual proof instead of taking those claims at face value.
Libertine Seguros said:The question is, do you personally believe the Garmin "we are a totally clean team" party line? If so, did you also believe it from HTC and Sky when they used it?
The fact of the matter is, there is still a lot of doping in the sport. . . . with a pinch of salt as they turn another rider of around 30 or even more and turn them into a GC contender.
. . .- see Riccò's comical attacks in the 2008 Tour. . .
gooner said:Wiggins has been vehemently anti-doping in public . . ..
Uh -- Mario Puzo is a writer, dude. He writes fiction.The Hitch said:As Mario Puzo wrote "Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgment."
. . .
hrotha? You have seen him assert without proof. From my experience easily the most fair minded poster in the history of the forum.
This past Sunday, I was out for a group ride when someone in the group got a flat and we all stopped so it could get fixed. I got talking to Cesar Grajales and a couple other guys, and the subject of racing and doping came up. At one point I proferred my opinion that the peloton "seems" cleaner now since the racing isn't what it was 5 or 10 years ago. Specifically, in the Lance era, for example, explosive, superhuman-like attacks were routine. Now, not so much, and the recent battles in the mountains of this year's Giro tend (to me at least) to suggest that riders are more evenly matched and not as juiced as they once were. Cesar looked at me incredulously and his opinion is that doping is still an essential and very prevalent part of the pro peloton. He doesn't think Cadel is clean, either (call me naive, but he is the one guy who strikes me as a possibly clean racer).
You're mistaken. I didn't post that information because I was trying not to hijack the thread, and because it could all be found in the Wiggins thread that someone already topped for you to see.gooner said:When I asked him for the "fragmentary information, rumours and some hard evidence here and there" with regards to his suspicion of Wiggins and Hesjedal he could'nt come up with anything. I asked him for this "fragmentary information, rumours and hard evidence here and there" as he said he uses this method in his discussions in the clinic to "reconstruct a coherent picture".In the end he came up with nothing. Also he admits to joining the dots in his discussions in the clinic so I suggest read the link to the piece I posted to Jonathan Vaughters which will tell you everthing that is wrong with this method of discussion in the clinic. In the end this joining of the dots that Vaughters goes on about, just ends up with everything turning into doping gossip with no backbone to anything. His story is the best example of this.
Sigh.gooner said:OK you won't answer the question so we move on. Be a politician if you want.
hiero2 said:Well, we sure got some talking material on this one - so here I go:
De Gendt:
Well --- no. Garmin has been consistently anti, and started the team with that team. As far as I am concerned, they have lived up to that ideal in their everyday actions. De Gendt turns in a miracle performance, and you aren't suspicious? I will tell you this - in the 90's, when the French crowds greeted Lance with shouts of "Dope'! Dope'!" I said innocent until proven. And I did not believe the cries of "Dope'!". But, too much spilt milk - I find that case proven. But, fool me once, fool me twice, all that? What makes you think that maybe De Gendt is not going for a "fool you twice" performance?
I agree, it COULD be recycled clean talk. You are right, we have heard plenty of it. But, I think that VdV has seen so many riders penalized and talking, he probably doesn't think "where it was" needs to be discussed! And, frankly, I would agree. But we also HAVE proof. Power numbers, blood report numbers, teams being established to be specifically anti-doping squads. The power numbers and the blood numbers are scientific. The team morals are human, and not scientific, but I choose to believe a few of these teams. Partly because of the riders who stay with them - partly because their actions tend to validate their stated morality. You know - the human aspect.
Yes, I believe Garmin. And HTC, and I feel pretty good about Sky - in part because they have Wiggins. Wiggins has a long history of not wanting to dope. He held off even getting into road-racing because of the doping culture. Some people suspect him, but you have to draw the line somewhere. Wiggins has been outspokenly anti-doping, and the way he rides supports his stated morality. As for riders over 30 - well, a bicyclist's PRIME racing years have long been supposed to be 29. For a person to find the right trainer and team combo a year or two, or three, later is not a shock to me. In some ways, I think it is predictable.
gooner said:Facepalm. Oh dear.
You use the same chesnut always like every doping gossip about Allen Lim and Matt White..
hrotha said:Doesn't "the minute" here mean "months after the fact, when he was dealing with Greenedge"?
Anyway, of course the allegations aren't new. Frankly, it seems to me you were ready to dismiss them regardless of what I had said, as evidenced by your tired use of memetic expressions like "facepalm". It's still pretty simple: the history of the sport teaches us that basing circular arguments on a particular rider being clean without solid proof is absurd. Such arguments have been questioned even when using Moncoutié as a measuring stick, so much the reason to question them when you use Wiggins. You've spent the whole argument strawmanning and accusing me of saying everybody dopes, which is blatantly false if you had actually bothered to read my posts.
The bit about Allen Lim is just gossip, of course. What would Landis know?
I repeat: the issue here is not that you believe Wiggins, Hesjedal and Vande Velde are currently clean. I'm highly sceptical myself. The real issue here is that you're the one jumping to conclusions: you're the one picking a side in the "are they doped or clean" question. I'm not.
I really don't know how you can attempt to ridicule someone else's opinion when your own opinion is based on nothing more than trusting what people (who have vested interests) tell you.gooner said:Facepalm. Oh dear.
You bring up JV getting Tondo wrong yet dismiss White as gossip, even though the same JV sacked him, and he did not do so immediatley as you said in another post, it was Kimmage came looking around that JV acted.gooner said:You throw the same chesnut always like every doping gossip about Allen Lim and Matt White. You are as gulity as Vaughters was when he joined the dots to judge Tondo wrongly.
gooner said:As for Wiggins, he was advised not to do it by Anne Gripper. She knew no matter what, that they would be interpreted in the wrong way and she predicted that people would put their own spin on it. She said in the UCI they use anything up to 9 experts to get the full picture of a profile and that you need different types of experts to get a clear judgment. She said the profile was OK.
gooner said:Just interestingly in another post you implied that you think VDV was clean yourself so are you not tossing aside the links to Lim and White yourself?