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Vandevelde interview - hope for a clean peloton

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TechnicalDescent said:
Perhaps, but only if everybody was doping. If you have a peloton that is half clean, then goes to clean, I think the clean riders would be up there.

Yet there's still plenty of dopers winning in recent years.

In which case those dopers are either clean now, and the natural order is unchanged (thus a poor clean rider in 2005 is just an average clean rider in 2011), or the dopers are still doping and the clean riders have no chance.

I don't know why Michele Scarponi doesn't get credit for coming back from the dark side and proving you can "win" a GT clean.
 
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Eusebio Kino said:
Getting back to R. Hysjedal, Garmin, seeing how they as a team, and how the competion rode the race, including the DNFs, who were non crashers, I saw the cleanest team, with the best tactics, and the most deserving winner in the 2012 Giro. It was a Giro that I believed to be a fair race.
So, the way I see it JV, the dope testers, and the pro peloton are doing their job, a nicely done Giro. Look at Bassos' 2012 Giro placing for instance, exactly where he should be considering his age and all the other aspects of his career.

I think you mean the "the cleanest team" equates to "the team proclaiming to be the cleanest". Data is still being processed....
 
Ferminal said:
Yet there's still plenty of dopers winning in recent years.

In which case those dopers are either clean now, and the natural order is unchanged (thus a poor clean rider in 2005 is just an average clean rider in 2011), or the dopers are still doping and the clean riders have no chance.

I don't know why Michele Scarponi doesn't get credit for coming back from the dark side and proving you can "win" a GT clean.

Because he did not prove that you can win a gt clean.

The whole idea about a winning a gt clean is that you beat the dopers whether they get caught or not.

But regardless of whether the result was later taken away or not, Contador beat him in the gt so if he proved anything it would be that you can come 2nd to a doped rider and then be given the gt, clean, but not that you can win the gt clean.
 
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The Hitch said:
Because he did not prove that you can win a gt clean.

The whole idea about a winning a gt clean is that you beat the dopers whether they get caught or not.

But regardless of whether the result was later taken away or not, Contador beat him in the gt so if he proved anything it would be that you can come 2nd to a doped rider and then be given the gt, clean, but not that you can win the gt clean.

Why would Scarponi be clean by the way? All of his best results have been made after his come back.
 
hrotha said:
These arguments are circular. Garmin (and Sky) say they're clean, therefore if they win the sport is cleaner.

I remember when Usain Bolt won the 100m olympics Michael Johnson in the "analysis" 2 minutes later, said that the best thing about the win was that it proved a clean guy can truimph in the 100m.

Before he had even ****ed in the ****ing cup.:cool:
 
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ElChingon said:
I think you mean the "the cleanest team" equates to "the team proclaiming to be the cleanest". Data is still being processed....

and Titi Tommy Voeckler. Clean as a whistle from a southerner who chews tobacc'ah
 

Eusebio Kino

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ElChingon said:
I think you mean the "the cleanest team" equates to "the team proclaiming to be the cleanest". Data is still being processed....
Garmin beat Tiralongo, Garzelli, Basso, Dilucca, Sella, Rujano, etc. etc....
Maybe that means, the known dopers are off the stuff?
 
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TechnicalDescent said:
But couldn't their successes demonstrate that the peloton is cleaner? If the peloton were clean, which riders do you think would be winning GTs? It would be interesting to know?

The problem with sport is that they (DS, Doctors and riders)since EPO was introduced have phucked it up so much that we are not sure who has a natural GT talent to win and who doesn't.

Whoever is taking the most marginal gains tends to win.
 
gooner said:
Wiggins has been vehemently anti-doping in public in a sport where many riders adhere to an omerta and you just scoffed at it. Just look at his numerous interviews in the 2007 Tour where he lashed out on Vino and Rasmussen and before the Tour last year when he said in some cases people should be even locked up. He also lashed out against Di Luca and Bruyneel in the past for the signing of Basso and called it a disgrace. Yet when a rider adheres to the omerta on certain issues and they say nothing people are immediately jumping on his case. Make up your mind what do people want? Do we want to listen to people speak out on it or stay shut about it? Also he has has tried to raise the suspicion off himself when he released his blood profiles(even tough he was advised not to) and yet that is still not enough for people. So how is he going to prove his innocence to you if people are always going to have this suspicion no matter what? No matter what he does for you is'nt enough. You will always come out with the same mantra "autobus to 4th" and have this suspicion that you love in this forum.

You never hear the Schlecks, Contador, Sanchez or many other top riders speak out on vehemently against doping in the past. This is something that Paul Kimmage has also criticised Contador and the Schlecks in the past about and he has said before he also likes Wiggins attitude to this. This is why I am inclined to believe him a lot more than others and why I hold him up as more of an example than the riders I just mentioned above.

and carl lewis used to lash out about ben Johnson.....your point caller...if your blufffing you may as well do it with conviction no?
 
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Ferminal said:
Vaughters is familiar with the tests of Cancellara, Evans, Schleck, Menchov etc etc?

Good point, Evans' physiological tests are supposed to be awsome. I guess this is just Vaughter's judgment. It's not looking far off from today. It's rare to see a talent like Evans almost reached on a TT. If Wiggins' main problem is psychologically then we could be seeing the next great rider emerge.
 
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Ferminal said:
It's the Dauphine. Remember Janez Brajkovic?

RadioShack REALLY wanted to be beat Contador that year. Brajkovic didn't appear to be breathing as he matched Contador's attacks. It doesn't surprise me that we haven't seen much of Brajkovic since.

To link it back to the thread, I think today could well back up Vandevelde and Vaughter's point that we're finally seeing riders with great physiologically at the top rather than the best doped.
 
TechnicalDescent said:
To link it back to the thread, I think today could well back up Vandevelde and Vaughter's point that we're finally seeing riders with great physiologically at the top rather than the best doped.

Didn't we see that with Evans in the Tour last year? You could say Evans is clean and Wiggins is doping - maybe the tide is actually going the other way, back towards doping.

gooner said:
But did Brajkovic ever finish 4th in the Tour and 3rd in the Vuelta?

Wiggins's form entering the Tour now is a lot better than it was in 2009 and plus there is no Contador to contend with like back then. Also when he did the Vuelta he was coming off his collarbone injury so he is definetely going into this Tour in better shape than ever into a course that suits him more than ever. You have to sit up and take notice of him now.

My point was related to the performance(s) today, nothing else. Let's judge Evans on his June Grenoble not his July one, yeah...
 
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gooner said:
But did Brajkovic ever finish 4th in the Tour and 3rd in the Vuelta?

Plus Paris Nice, previous Dauphine, Silver medal at world championships. I think he is fairly consistent.

Also I think it IS important that someone who is known (by most) to run a clean team and champion anti doping gives him the big thumbs up. JV obviously worked with him when he got 4th at the tour, knows how he did it and his capabilities, and understand's psychologically was his big problem in the past. If riders like Evans, Hesjedal and Wiggins are now dominating the tours, it's very positive for a clean peloton IMO.
 
gooner said:
That is a fair point but what I am saying is you can't just dismiss it as the Dauphine. He did beat Tony Martin by 34 secs and this is something he would of been targeting being a specialist and all.

Yes, it's a fantastic performance by Wiggins, I do not deny that.

But compared to the corresponding TT last year, the difference between Brad and Evans has only gone out another 30% off what was already an inaccurate margin (given Evans closed 97% of it at the end of a GT one month later). For all we know this could be accounted for in their different seasons thus far, the difference in the TT (length/profile/technical difficulty). Martin was actually worse against today Evans compared with last year.

If you want to compare Evans and Wiggins compare them in a GT, if you want to compare Wiggins and Martin compare them in a Worlds/Olympics. I think Wiggins will get probably 1-2 minutes out of Evans over 100km in the Tour, who knows what happens against Martin/Cancellara in the one-offs. I just don't agree with the argument that "Wiggins proved his physiological dominance because of a ride in the Dauphine".
 
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Caruut said:
This entire thread is essentially scepticism the Vaughters project, but you reckon a quote from Vaughters settles it?

I did not think it would settle it, but if you are convinced by Vaughter's project these remarks about Wiggins "physiology" are interesting. It's not something he would say about any rider that wins.