Vaughters confirms past doping by Danielson, others at Garmin

[Susan Westemeyer]

You are joking - every other post is from LauraLyn.

THere was speculation about CN's Laura Weislo nationality and that she was writing in the forum under another name. That is what I was responding to. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

Susan

 

[DirtyWorks]

I asked about this in an earlier thread, in the context of doping during childhood/formative years and realizing permanent gains. The response I got to my query was that the effects of doping last only as long as the doping, essentially. You are saying that's not true, that one can dope and realize permanent gains. Which is true? Can you substantiate that assertion?

It depends on the protocol.

-EPO and related blood boosting: temporary gains.
-Not mentioned very frequently is the use of psychiatry medicine to alter mood to improve aggression and risk taking. Temporary with serious problems getting off the drugs.
-HGH/Testosterone: permanent gains simply because recovery is faster. Go to an anti-aging clinic and get it done professionally.
-Clenbuterol is fundamentally different because it is a true/false test, but the general idea is it improves muscle building in large quantities.
-Some modern WADA regulated steroid uses are different too. Most use now is as an anti-inflamatory under TUE. It keeps riders going on their bike with minor injuries.

As a general overview, that's right. But, this is primitive. We won't know what's beating the system right now for a couple of years.

 

[D-Queued]

It depends on the protocol.

-EPO and related blood boosting: temporary gains.
-Not mentioned very frequently is the use of psychiatry medicine to alter mood to improve aggression and risk taking. Temporary with serious problems getting off the drugs.
-HGH/Testosterone: permanent gains simply because recovery is faster. Go to an anti-aging clinic and get it done professionally.
-Clenbuterol is fundamentally different because it is a true/false test, but the general idea is it improves muscle building in large quantities.
-Some modern WADA regulated steroid uses are different too. Most use now is as an anti-inflamatory under TUE. It keeps riders going on their bike with minor injuries.

As a general overview, that's right. But, this is primitive. We won't know what's beating the system right now for a couple of years.

Thanks DirtyWorks, here is further insight which may muddy the waters with the above:

Testosterone: also impacts bone marrow and can/will increase Hemoglobin and Hematocrit for temporary/medium term gain.

Clenbuterol: Used to 'cut' and offset 'bloating' type impacts from steroids/testosterone. Therefore, also some temporary/medium term gain

HCG (not listed above): Used to transition off of Testosterone, therefore medium impact that enables longer-term retention of Testosterone gains

Cocaine: Used to avoid steroid crash when weaning off (short term impact to preserve longer-term gains of 'roids)

EPO and other oxygen vector agents (also VEGF): Utilization for both capillarization and anti-capillarization effects in skeletal (some scientific debate) and heart (myocardium) muscle, for purposes including increased cardiac output, for example, therefore also providing for long term gains

Bottom line - ex-dopers still benefit from artificially enhanced gains after they stop doping.

Dave.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

@inrng: ... UCI President McQuaid says UCI will review ... candid forum posts with a view to sanctioning the riders named

 

[roundabout]

**** that fat *******.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/07/us-cycling-armstrong-mcquaid-idUSBRE88611Z20120907

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

@inrng: ... UCI President McQuaid says UCI will review ... candid forum posts with a view to sanctioning the riders named

Which conjures up the image of Pat trawling through the clinic looking for the offending posts.

Just in case he does read this. Pat you're a ****, the sooner your corrupt little hands are taken off the sport the better.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

**** that fat *******.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/07/us-cycling-armstrong-mcquaid-idUSBRE88611Z20120907

Thanks for the article.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Aren't McQuaid's actions designed to re-enforce Omerta (and also to punish Vaughters who he dislikes already). Don't speak out about doping because otherwise we'll ban you.

The UCI based on that interview are clearly hoping that the USADA file never becomes public.

 

[AcademyCC]

Lance is getting thrown under the bus.

Can't resist on the slim chance he reads this

Pat McQuaid you are a corrupt fool. You make me ashamed to be Irish.

 

[the asian]

Ha ha! Corrupt fat Pat trying to show the world that he's taking action against dopers.
He's only fooling nobody but himself.
Pretty sure the truth about UCI will come out soon.

 

[neineinei]

Which conjures up the image of Pat trawling through the clinic looking for the offending posts.

Just in case he does read this. Pat you're a ****, the sooner your corrupt little hands are taken off the sport the better.

+1 (and 10 chars)

 

[The_Z_man]

Aren't McQuaid's actions designed to re-enforce Omerta (and also to punish Vaughters who he dislikes already). Don't speak out about doping because otherwise we'll ban you.

The UCI based on that interview are clearly hoping that the USADA file never becomes public.

Ignoring the last reply to your post, that's exactly what I thought. If Pat was really concerned about cleaning up the sport, why would he punish riders who talk about doping.

 

[mastersracer]

Ignoring the last reply to your post, that's exactly what I thought. If Pat was really concerned about cleaning up the sport, why would he punish riders who talk about doping.

an admission is sanctionable (e.g., David Millar was suspended 2 years for an admission). The witnesses against LA supposedly plea bargained for a reduced suspension (6 months). Guess that could be appealed.

Danielson's name hasn't come up as a witness. Interesting issue whether a DS stating a rider doped, which would be an indirect admission, could be ground for a sanction. Sometimes when you throw someone under the bus they get squashed...

 

[frenchfry]

an admission is sanctionable (e.g., David Millar was suspended 2 years for an admission). The witnesses against LA supposedly plea bargained for a reduced suspension (6 months). Guess that could be appealed.

Danielson's name hasn't come up as a witness. Interesting issue whether a DS stating a rider doped, which would be an indirect admission, could be ground for a sanction. Sometimes when you throw someone under the bus they get squashed...

Millar only "admitted" after they found the vial of EPO in his appartment. Not really an "admission" under those circumstances, even if he says he left the vial on his mantle kind of hoping to be caught.

A real admission is like Jérôme Chiotti did.

«Je suis le seul âne à avouer». I am the only donkey to confess

http://www.liberation.fr/sports/010...e-epo-temoignage-sur-les-pratiques-du-peloton

 

[PosterBill]

Pat McQauid must spring out of bed every morning in shear amazement...."I can't believe I still have this job!"

 

[hrotha]

an admission is sanctionable (e.g., David Millar was suspended 2 years for an admission). The witnesses against LA supposedly plea bargained for a reduced suspension (6 months). Guess that could be appealed.

Danielson's name hasn't come up as a witness. Interesting issue whether a DS stating a rider doped, which would be an indirect admission, could be ground for a sanction. Sometimes when you throw someone under the bus they get squashed...

I imagine JV's word wouldn't be enough. He wasn't a witness, as they didn't ride together. It would take Tommy D himself to confess.

And by the way, those Garmin riders should definitely serve some sort of suspension, as per the rules.

 

[Houndbike]

Pat McQauid must spring out of bed every morning in shear amazement...."I can't believe I still have this job!"

+1


"and that the rest of my family are doing so well out of it as well!"

 

[neineinei]

an admission is sanctionable (e.g., David Millar was suspended 2 years for an admission). The witnesses against LA supposedly plea bargained for a reduced suspension (6 months). Guess that could be appealed.

Danielson's name hasn't come up as a witness. Interesting issue whether a DS stating a rider doped, which would be an indirect admission, could be ground for a sanction. Sometimes when you throw someone under the bus they get squashed...

The six month suspensions was probably something Lance and co "leaked", or rather made up and planted in the press during TdF. Maybe they thought it was likely, but that is all. They did not know who has been talking to USDADA, and they did not know what they have said. And if someone has admitted to doping themselves, they do not know if it was within the statue of limitation. USADA hasn't leaked anything. Absolutely nothing. When the supposed leak took place Lance even forgot to complain about USADA leaking.

Vaughters twittered 5 July: "Regarding the Dutch media report: No 6mos suspensions have been given to any member of Slipstream Sports. Today or at any future date."

Any doping cases against witnessing riders will be handled after the cases of Armstrong, Bruyneel, Garcia del Moral, Ferrari, Marti and Celaya are finished. Bruyneel, Marti and Celaya have asked for arbitration. A

 

[mb2612]

I imagine JV's word wouldn't be enough. He wasn't a witness, as they didn't ride together. It would take Tommy D himself to confess.

And by the way, those Garmin riders should definitely serve some sort of suspension, as per the rules.

Yeah, if there is evidence to prove you were doping, you need to be punished. It happened to Armstrong, now it has to happen to CVV, TD and DZ.

 

[Raul Ramaya]

It is unrealistic. By the time Tommy D. got in the game, the drugs were all over the U.S. scene.

But that flatly contradicts what Tilford said. A point backed up by some of the conti racers themselves within the comment section. I am in no position to opine but I'm wondering why I should give your statement credence over Tilfords? (serious question)

 

[Racelap]

Pat McQauid must spring out of bed every morning in shear amazement...."I can't believe I still have this job!"

Guys like him spring out of bed and ask "What does the world owe me today?"

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I imagine JV's word wouldn't be enough. He wasn't a witness, as they didn't ride together. It would take Tommy D himself to confess.

While this is indeed correct - I would expect that USADA have the full confessions of all witnesses from their statements.
No need for JV or anyone else - that's just Fat Pat telling JV to shut up.

And by the way, those Garmin riders should definitely serve some sort of suspension, as per the rules.

I expect that to happen - but only after the cases against Bruyneel etc are resolved. They will probably get a reduced sanction of a year, (not 6 months) as per the code.

 

[Trailzz]

If I were the UCI and trying to get revenge on JV, I would put JV's requirement that all riders speak honestly with doping authorities about everything in their past to the test. Call every single Garmin rider in for questioning about everything they have ever done or known. see how much honesty there is in that scenario with no potential deal in place

 

[BroDeal]

But that flatly contradicts what Tilford said. A point backed up by some of the conti racers themselves within the comment section. I am in no position to opine but I'm wondering why I should give your statement credence over Tilfords? (serious question)

You think Tommy D. taught himself blood doping? Tilford "knew" TD was doping because he and everyone else who raced at that time had seen the same thing with other riders. The ranks of the guys smashing it at the top in the U.S. at that time were filled with dopers.

The only difference with TD appears to be that he decided to start early rather than doing it the "right" way--you know, eeking out a crappy living on the domestic circuit for five years before getting wise to what it takes to really reach the top.

 

[hrotha]

While this is indeed correct - I would expect that USADA have the full confessions of all witnesses from their statements.
No need for JV or anyone else - that's just Fat Pat telling JV to shut up.

I expect that to happen - but only after the cases against Bruyneel etc are resolved. They will probably get a reduced sanction of a year, (not 6 months) as per the code.

Agreed on all accounts. Although that makes you wonder - JV stated a confession to WADA was a requisite for an ex-doper to join his team. Was that already in place when Slipstream started? If so, why weren't these fellows suspended in 2007-2008, long before the federal investigation?