Vaughters confirms past doping by Danielson, others at Garmin

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

TD broke the record on Mt Evans Hillclimb when he rode for Fassa Bortolo. He has raced it a few times since then, once, I believe while on Discovery and maybe twice since with Garmin (or somthing like that). His Fassa Bortolo time is still the record. That at least gives some indication that he was good at extreame altitude hillclimbing in his early years and has slowed down a tad since then. Of course, the times are reasonably close together, but...

You must be right, Ferretti was never involved with dirty things

Ariostea, GB, Fassa...

Nothing to see here, move along guys...

To put it on another level, wouldn´t it be nice for Lanceboy to have an intruder in the Checcini camp?

 

[roundabout]

Flat sled runner?

Something like that

Had Danielson "paid his dues" he would have been in Dierckxens/Herve territory of turning pro at 30.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

It's Weislo, not benson. Twitter is stupid and confusing when taken out of context, but when it says

@dnlbenson - it indicates the recipient, ie Weislo is the sender.




A brilliant theory. I am jealous. Particularly given Weislo's "stinging" article and the similarity in name with Mr Lyn and Mr Lyn's apparent lack of emotion in any post, until RR copied some of her links and then she went off the deep end for lack of "Source" attribution - a journalist's bread & butter. Also explains how they managed to be so confident and relatively well-written from the get go. No introduction, just BANG writing with authority.

I wonder if Weislo is doing a Tan under a pseudonym, in an attempt to generate more polemic?

The Vaughters outing of Tommy D was attributed to "Cyclingnews"; very curious.



I cannot find the news article released in Aus that discussed this, but it was interesting to consider people deliberately post thing to bait others for a reaction. I guess it gives them a sense of power.

Weislo complaining because Hamilton put off being interviewed by her. I can't think why he'd want to delay being interviewed by such a top quality, insightful, credible and serious journalist such as herself.

She thinks he's afraid. Perhaps he just doesn't trust you to not stab him in the back and then write a hatchet piece on him? I can't say I blame him.

 

[the big ring]

Weislo complaining because Hamilton put off being interviewed by her. I can't think why he'd want to delay being interviewed by such a top quality, insightful, credible and serious journalist such as herself.

She thinks he's afraid. Perhaps he just doesn't trust you to not stab him in the back and then write a hatchet piece on him? I can't say I blame him.

Yeah said the same thing in the Tyler book thread. So hilarity. Is Weislo a germanic surname? Can't find anywhere which languages she speaks, but it'd certainly solidify a theory...

 

[gheizhwinder]

I just checked on that myself, for the same reason

http://twist.future.net.uk/showthread.php?p=233281#post233281

Speaks Flemish I reckon!

 

[LauraLyn]

Good piece from Australia helping us better to understand the discussion here:

http://www.4bc.com.au/blogs/4bc-blog/dopers-cue-to-speak-out/20120907-25hzf.html

 

[nighttrain]

Adam Myerson is putting some good perspective on twitter:

http://exit17.net/2012/09/06/story-...um=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed:+exit17+(exit17)

 

[pedaling squares]

Wait, you guys really think that Vaughters "accidentally" revealed this info?

Really? After years and years of keeping secret, he's suddenly undone on the CN message boards?

Seriously, people. Vaughters is a smart guy. He knows what he's doing. I thought it was very nice of him to come on here to explain things. He didn't reveal anything earth-shattering anyway. It was just the equivalent of confirming that the sun rises in the east.

I agree. I think JV is stupid like a fox. He gets the story out there the way he wants it to appear, instead of waiting for USADA to reveal their evidence and allowing Armstrong's professional truthbenders to shape the story on their terms. A guy who runs a team and cares about morale would definitely have run his plan past the three riders first. And yeah, it was no surprise. Lots of talk about TD back in the day, and Landis already outed DZ.

Not so impressed with Tilford's tirade. Probably some truth in there mixed in with some bitterness and jealousy. And I lost interest about halfway through Myerson's histrionics.

 

[BroDeal]

And I lost interest about halfway through Myerson's histrionics.

What I got is proof that Twitter is a not a whole lot better than smoke signals when it comes to communicating.

 

[the big ring]

What I got is proof that Twitter is a not a whole lot better than smoke signals when it comes to communicating.

Twitter: there's nothing sh!tter Multi-way conversations and even just timelines of replies is all bass-ackwards.

Then it times out due to being over capacity.

Mind you, forum software could use a major overhaul. Ai carumba.

 

[Random Direction]

well, it hit the Globe and Mail in Canada: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...-line-up-to-talk-about-doping/article4523921/

 

[Cerberus]

IF a rider was doping as early as his junior years, collegiate years, or even as a "domestic" pro - and is now riding clean many years later - what permanent benefit(s) did that early doping provide him with? Some of it while we has developing and growing? I am sure that someone who doped for years doesn't gain huge benefits that would never go away - especially compared to someone who never doped but had similar physical traits.

I'd think they're more likely to do permanent harm than get permanent benefit. If you use happy drugs for a long time you don't end up with a permanent buzz after you stop. Rather you might risk getting a depression because the bodies natural production of feel good chemicals drop. I'd think that doping was the same thing.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

What I get from Myersons tweeting is that people are becoming more comfortable naming names. Rick Crawford, named here and on twitter. Would we have seen that last week?

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

For your information, Laura is American and on the rare occasions when she participates in the forum, it is under her own name.

Susan

 

[Paco_P]

This. Anyone have an answer? Has this ever been studied?

At a minimum the earlier doping may have facilitated a career where none would have otherwise been possible. The clean ex-doper is not innocent.

 

[perico]

Not directed at you Kender, but the forum in general:

Do you people honestly believe this crap? Do you really think Vaughters is so stupid that he just "oops" accidentally outed the past doping of 3 of his top riders? That it was not pre-meditated and just a slip of the keyboard, a little drunk posting maybe?

If you believe that I've got some great mortgage backed securities to sell you! And some swamp land in Florida! Honestly if you people on here are that stupid and you are the "real fans" then this sport is screwed.

This has to be carefully planned by Vaughters and it is merely PR spin to protect his team and his riders. He is "getting in front of the story" as it's called in politics. He is trying to position these guys as having doped only in "the distant past" before they got to his team - his totally clean team of course. Furthermore, his notion that he knew these guys only doped a little and so could ride well clean but he also knew that Jacksche doped a lot so couldn't ride clean is pretty silly in my opinion. Seems like a convenient front story for enforcing Jorg's blacklisting.

Ask yourself, do you really think Christian Vande Velde was clean in 2008 when he suddenly became a Tour contender and got 5th while on Vaughters team after a career of domestiqueing at US Postal and elsewhere? Please.

It's not that strange. Vande Velde was possibly the most talented American GC rider who came up in the 1998-03 era, and his 4th place was not all that surprising. Like Danielson, his weakness came mentally and being crash/injury prone. In a tour which was won by Carlos Sastre, I don't think that it was a dirty ride. He would've likely topped that 4th place (not 5th) the next year had he not broken half the bones in his body and still rode to finish 7th (not counting Lance's stripped podium).

People got this idea of VdV being some scrub that was nothing special in his time at Postal. The guy has a massive amount of ability and had he been in some other atmosphere, he likely would've developed into a GC contender much earlier.

In 2005 or 2006, I remember a bit of controversy when VdV was selected for the TDF team at CSC over Cancellara (I think it was), but it wasn't that shocking. The guy always had the talent. I would go as far as stating that he was almost as talented as Floyd, but Landis had the mental edge and was on the inside at USPS, almost by accident it seems, where Vande Velde was never accepted by LA. He seemed to have developed a mental block and accepted that he would never have the opportunity to prove himself.

 

[VeloCity]

I agree. I think JV is stupid like a fox. He gets the story out there the way he wants it to appear, instead of waiting for USADA to reveal their evidence and allowing Armstrong's professional truthbenders to shape the story on their terms. A guy who runs a team and cares about morale would definitely have run his plan past the three riders first. And yeah, it was no surprise. Lots of talk about TD back in the day, and Landis already outed DZ.

I would assume too that Zabriskie, Danielson, and VandeVelde are quite possibly three of the nine mentioned in Hamilton's book as cooperating with the authors and maybe they and JV decided with all of this stuff swirling around it was very likely that names would start to be named and better to get out in front of it all and try to control it as much as possible. Would explain the coincidental timing with Hamilton's book release, anyway.

 

[mastersracer]

It's not that strange. Vande Velde was possibly the most talented American GC rider who came up in the 1998-03 era,

can you say this without laughing? It's impossible not to suspect everyone who came up during that era. Remember Kirk O'Bee? Trent Klasna? Tilford has an entry today about the 2003 Redlands stage where Horner, Danielson, and O'Neill - all on Saturn - jump from the gun ahead of the field and end up winning by over 12 minutes. Funny. Anyone who emerges during that era deserves an *

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

For your information, Laura is American and on the rare occasions when she participates in the forum, it is under her own name.

Is she going to predict the future for us? I'd love to have my palm red.

 

[Cycle Chic]

For your information, Laura is American and on the rare occasions when she participates in the forum, it is under her own name.

Susan

You are joking - every other post is from LauraLyn.

 

[perico]

can you say this without laughing? It's impossible not to suspect everyone who came up during that era. Remember Kirk O'Bee? Trent Klasna? Tilford has an entry today about the 2003 Redlands stage where Horner, Danielson, and O'Neill - all on Saturn - jump from the gun ahead of the field and end up winning by over 12 minutes. Funny. Anyone who emerges during that era deserves an *

Yes, I can. Considering VdV was a 5 time national track champion and Olympian at the age of 19, who finished 2nd in the RR 15-16 National Championships in only his second ever road race who was signed to the top international US pro team at the time he decided to concentrate full time on the sport... yeah, i can say that without laughing.

 

[D-Queued]

I would assume too that Zabriskie, Danielson, and VandeVelde are quite possibly three of the nine mentioned in Hamilton's book as cooperating with the authors and maybe they and JV decided with all of this stuff swirling around it was very likely that names would start to be named and better to get out in front of it all and try to control it as much as possible. Would explain the coincidental timing with Hamilton's book release, anyway.

can you say this without laughing? It's impossible not to suspect everyone who came up during that era. Remember Kirk O'Bee? Trent Klasna? Tilford has an entry today about the 2003 Redlands stage where Horner, Danielson, and O'Neill - all on Saturn - jump from the gun ahead of the field and end up winning by over 12 minutes. Funny. Anyone who emerges during that era deserves an *

I know one of these folks personally, and have ridden with and raced against him multiple times.

I agree with mastersracer.

Please recall the confirmed story about CVV's performance as (the only?) one on Postal that was not on the white lunch bag program.

Dave.

 

[DirtyWorks]

well, it hit the Globe and Mail in Canada: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...-line-up-to-talk-about-doping/article4523921/

The comments suggest the common wisdom has changed. I only checked a few comments and found none of the usual cult talking points. I'd think they'd be all over Hamilton as not credible and all that.

Regarding athletes who previously doped, depending on the protocol, the effects can improve a rider for their lifetime.

It is also very important to note that even though an athlete may not test positive for low-levels of testosterone/HGH/whatever it's the consistent use over months that lead to substantial, permanent gains over clean athletes.

 

[Deagol]

You must be right, Ferretti was never involved with dirty things

Ariostea, GB, Fassa...

Nothing to see here, move along guys...

To put it on another level, wouldn´t it be nice for Lanceboy to have an intruder in the Checcini camp?

I was not claiming TD was clean while on Fassa. In fact, it is doubtful. What might be hopeful, but is certainly not proof, is that while with Garmin, his times were slower. Therefore, maybe/hopefully he is clean now on Garmin?

 

[bigmatt24]

...

Regarding athletes who previously doped, depending on the protocol, the effects can improve a rider for their lifetime.

It is also very important to note that even though an athlete may not test positive for low-levels of testosterone/HGH/whatever it's the consistent use over months that lead to substantial, permanent gains over clean athletes.

I asked about this in an earlier thread, in the context of doping during childhood/formative years and realizing permanent gains. The response I got to my query was that the effects of doping last only as long as the doping, essentially. You are saying that's not true, that one can dope and realize permanent gains. Which is true? Can you substantiate that assertion?