Vaughters confirms past doping by Danielson, others at Garmin

[roundabout]

I prefer the word plant myself, but a mole would also do.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

Vaughters is almost as bad als Holzer in terms of lying.
Or should i say good.
What a complete joke of a human being he is.

Disagree. He is forcing a lot of squirming and hence disclosure. Good for the clean-up.

 

[hiero2]

hands together for Tilford, calling a spade a spade. . . .

Agree. Even though I disagree with Steve's conclusion - that JV is dodgy because TD was dodgy, I am very glad we can see people saying what they think about all this without suffering the pariah treatment Landis, Bassons, and Hamilton got. I have a lot of respect for Steve.

. . .
damage control is all JV has on his mind these days. . . .

I don't agree. Look up a couple of posts to my other reply about that (to Moose Mcknuckles, starts "Accidentally"). Conflating "JV has damage control on his mind" to "ALL JV has on his mind" is reading too much into the situation. In my opinion, of course.

. . .
the number of dodgy figures on his team is rising with the day . . .

Not sure about "rising with the day" - but the number of dodgy figures in pro cycling was about 99.5% up until a few years ago. Which means it is more than hard to avoid them - it is next to impossible. Up and comers like Talansky, Pinot, Phinney appear to be more sheltered (I hope). However, being dodgy before does not mean you are still behaving in a dodgy manner today.

The thing that burns all of us is that up until a few years ago, people were telling us that it was the .5% that were involved in doping. But it turned out that our world really was the plappermouths, the omertans, a few pariah fess-ups, and the .5% who stayed clean. The anger and the distrust over being lied to are natural. After all, once you find a lie, how does anything become believable? But, as humans, not computers, we are able to fit our worlds into grey areas. eventually.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

I agree with hiero. It should be remembered that *we* were the ones who brought up Vande Velde, Zabriskie and other ex-Posties/Discoveries and asking what the difference between them and Jaksche was.

But maybe there's a mole among us.

Tygart has a UCI mole. Deepthroat. Double-agent. Garanteed. Armstrong knows. That is why he is so crazy to get this tossed on procedural 'flaw'...

 

[compete_clean]

...and Michael Barry just retired.

He only kept racing because he wanted to ride a TdF, which I think finally happened last year.

He was talking about retiring 4+ yrs ago but wanted to ride a tour. This year has been miserable for him with the crashes. I'm not surprised.

Are you waiting for a personal confession from him or stories about Disco, USPS, T-mobile and Sky?

 

[mastersracer]

hands together for Tilford, calling a spade a spade.
damage control is all JV has on his mind these days.
the number of dodgy figures on his team is rising with the day (not including our friend Inigo, nota bene). He knows coming clean en masse is the only way out, because everything is gonna be out in the open soon anyway, and denying a la Weltz is not an option anymore because the tides are turning. By denying, Weltz is saying: we're still there doping full throttle. Vaughters knows this is an alarming situation and is taking corresponding steps to control the damage.
I'm not sure why Prentice's email isn't more often brought to the fore. The perception is reality theme. That's Garmin's motto alright.

Tilford is only scratching the surface of the domestic drug scene. JV is just doing damage control. Someone needs to do us all a favor and come clean on the domestic drug scene TD was part of - the Saturn boys, etc.

 

[hiero2]

. . . Can we speculate on the identity of another forum poster? Certain names and behaviors seem very coincidental.

Really, got anything to back up your claim?

I'm guessing you were replying to this question?

I have nothing truly concrete - a coincidence of two names being mostly the same - as a made-up example, like "baraba" and "baraba-jagal". But what truly seems coincidental to me is the behavior - and there I look at cues. How does a person respond to other people's ideas? How consistent are the person's posts from one time to the next? How much respect do we see for other people?

Unfortunately, no smoking gun like seeing a typewritten page where a Smith-Corona was different from an IBM, and a flawed character was a dead giveaway that the same typewriter was used. Nope, I just think I see similar behavior, and I think that the person's business position and history in real-life particularly fits with the poster's attitude while posting. There are certain "tells".

Not that it really matters. It doesn't, I guess. Just got my curiosity going.

 

[zigmeister]

Disco only. Bruyneel smashed his immune system with a botched blood bag amoungst other crap. He got really sick and then contracted that parasite problem in Malaysisa.

TDs biggest problem was he wasn't physiologically able to handle a full scale program. It's just wasn't him.

Lance was calling him the "great white hope" in 05 and building him into something he wasn't. He believed in it for a while but after the sickness never again. (ref: beating up on landis at tdG 05)

TDs ex was furious with JB for almost killing her man and wrote it all over her blog. It got ripped down but was cached for months afterwards.

JV saved him from that world. Got him on the team and healthy again.

Well written perspective. TD was really still somewhat young 7yrs ago in the sport. The pressure was probably monumental.

I don't agree with others that people like him need to be sent packing forever. That is silly. Having guys like Vaughters come in, see the talent, get them out of that mess and build a clean program is the best thing for the sport and an example for others to follow.

 

[zigmeister]

Just to point out, but I was maybe the only one not to know (was not following duly what was happening), that Vande Velde & Zabriskie were speculated in July to be among the riders who witnessed to the USADA for a 6 month ban.

Yes, at the TDF I believe the first week that news came out, about Levi and a few others including those two.

This must be part of the USADA evidence that is going public soon and being given to the UCI. Thererfore, all of these riders must have known at one point in the very near future, this was all going to come out one way or another.

Just a bit strange how it all came about for these three.

 

[sniper]

Agree. Even though I disagree with Steve's conclusion - that JV is dodgy because TD was dodgy, I am very glad we can see people saying what they think about all this without suffering the pariah treatment Landis, Bassons, and Hamilton got. I have a lot of respect for Steve.


I don't agree. Look up a couple of posts to my other reply about that (to Moose Mcknuckles, starts "Accidentally"). Conflating "JV has damage control on his mind" to "ALL JV has on his mind" is reading too much into the situation. In my opinion, of course.



Not sure about "rising with the day" - but the number of dodgy figures in pro cycling was about 99.5% up until a few years ago. Which means it is more than hard to avoid them - it is next to impossible. Up and comers like Talansky, Pinot, Phinney appear to be more sheltered (I hope). However, being dodgy before does not mean you are still behaving in a dodgy manner today.

The thing that burns all of us is that up until a few years ago, people were telling us that it was the .5% that were involved in doping. But it turned out that our world really was the plappermouths, the omertans, a few pariah fess-ups, and the .5% who stayed clean. The anger and the distrust over being lied to are natural. After all, once you find a lie, how does anything become believable? But, as humans, not computers, we are able to fit our worlds into grey areas. eventually.

thanks hiero2, it's always good to read your contemplations.

we're now finding out how clean cycling has been in those days.
and that is also one of my main concerns regarding JV's public statements, his constant claim that cycling is so much cleaner now. What does that mean? like it's now 75% dopers, where it used to 99%?

it's also good that somebody opened this "keep your focus on UCI"-thread, for instance because Verdruggem really needs to be held accountable for his clownesque claims back in the early 2000s that no more than 2% of all cyclists were doping. (sorry, no time to search for a link, but most will remember his claims in that regard). and that's of course just one smaller of many larger things he needs to take responsibility for.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

You guys are ridiculous. People were giving JV stick for not hiring JJ, but hiring ex-postal guys. He was a hypocrite who wouldn't sign JJ, because he was blacklisted, but was just fine with signing dopers who weren't caught, or dopers who were caught but didn't **** in the soup to the same extent. Now JV shows up and says he didn't sign JJ because of personality and performance. So the hyenas jump at the performance bit. Then how could he sign those dopers from USPS with their superior doping docs? What's the difference between them and JJ? And that's when JV told you what you already knew - yeah those guys doped - and for once, the news section picked it up.

How can you possibly think that was planned, damage control, to get it out there before the USADA case (which is info that had already leaked multiple times anyway)? I mean, he surely wouldn't have responded to those questions 2 years ago, but planned? He's not some kind of comic book, evil genius.

You provoked it.

 

[mastersracer]

You guys are ridiculous. People were giving JV stick for not hiring JJ, but hiring ex-postal guys. He was a hypocrite who wouldn't sign JJ, because he was blacklisted, but was just fine with signing dopers who weren't caught, or dopers who were caught but didn't **** in the soup to the same extent. Now JV shows up and says he didn't sign JJ because of personality and performance. So the hyenas jump at the performance bit. Then how could he sign those dopers from USPS with their superior doping docs? What's the difference between them and JJ? And that's when JV told you what you already knew - yeah those guys doped - and for once, the news section picked it up.

How can you possibly think that was planned, damage control, to get it out there before the USADA case (which is info that had already leaked multiple times anyway)? I mean, he surely wouldn't have responded to those questions 2 years ago, but planned? He's not some kind of comic book, evil genius.

You provoked it.

+1 - Tilford is calling BS to JV's claim that TD has huge natural aerobic ability. JV just states it - what's the evidence? Tilford destroys the notion that TD showed it early on - shows his entire trajectory was doped.

JV needs to do more to show that he isn't just another Riis - a former doper who is using the cleaner team banner as a cover for a smarter doping team...

 

[Granville57]

Ask yourself, do you really think Christian Vande Velde was clean in 2008 when he suddenly became a Tour contender and got 5th while on Vaughters team after a career of domestiqueing at US Postal and elsewhere? Please.

Yes. Yes I do think Christian Vande Velde was riding clean in 2008.

 

[Benotti69]

Talk about ironic. JV gossiping about TD, CVV and DZ while telling us that one of the reasons why he wouldn't hire JJ was because he gossiped too much.

the thing with Vaughters is, is he that stupid or that smart?

I dont care the numbers game. That is LeMond stating the maximum clean. But he was one of the few that could reach that level, so to get to a LeMod level you need to dope.

So Garmin has to have guys juicing to the LeMond level, otherwise why the need for the sports science, which for me is a smoke screen to monitor and perfect the doping.

 

[ElChingon]

So if a rider tests positive in their A sample they are pulled from racing, if the B then fired and officially banned. Now we have three riders who their DS reports have used PED's, nothing? No inquiry, no comment from them, no press conf. ?

(yes we all knew pretty certain about two but the third was more of a surprise but still nothing?)

 

[131313]

And whilst Danielson averaged 40MPH for the timetrial, he was only 10-30 seconds in front of 2nd to 10th.

Hang on. 40mph.

But still, that's not that much better than the other guys. 5% more power for 2nd place up to 17% more power for 10th place to do the same time as Danielson.

38% more power for the author, Steve Tilford, to do the same time as Danielson. Ouch.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road.php?id=road/2003/jun03/naturevalley03/naturevalley032

1 Tom Danielson (USA) Saturn Cycling Team 9.08?
2 Viktor Rapinski (Blr) Saturn Cycling Team 0.10
3 John Lieswyn (USA) 7-Up/Maxxis 0.13
4 Adam Bergman (USA) Jelly Belly 0.20
5 Mark Mcmormack (USA) Saturn Cycling Team 0.21
6 Trent Klasna (USA) Saturn Cycling Team
7 Peter Knudsen (USA) Schroeder Iron 0.27
8 Aaron Olson (USA) Schroeder Iron
9 Dylan Sebel (USA) Broadmark Capital 0.29
10 Henk Vogels (Aus) Navigators 0.30

At least half of the guys on that list were juiced to the gills. Olson got railroaded out of the sport for complaining about doped teammates and Sebel just walked away. I think Bergman was the only guy on there to actually serve a ban, but I could be wrong on that one.

As far as Danielson, he got really fast when he hired a coach who thought buying blood spinners was a good idea. Plus, he road on Saturn and was teammates with Horner, Klasna and Nathan O'Neil, so he certainly didn't have to go to Disco to learn how to dope.

I think Tilford's analysis is right on.

 

[sniper]

...otherwise why the need for the sports science, which for me is a smoke screen to monitor and perfect the doping.

garmin know how the bloodpassport works from inside out. JV helped creating it right? And with San Millan still loosely attached to the team and Gonzalez "Real Madrid" Haro they have top of the bill blood specialists in their ranks. that's a fact. we're not gonna see (m)any Garmin riders test positive any day soon.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

So if a rider tests positive in their A sample they are pulled from racing, if the B then fired and officially banned. Now we have three riders who their DS reports have used PED's, nothing? No inquiry, no comment from them, no press conf. ?

(yes we all knew pretty certain about two but the third was more of a surprise but still nothing?)

Do you know what the fun part of your post is? Last week we had a nice little topic called 'How dodgy is Inigo San Millan?'. You can go and look it up. The fun part of it was when JV showed up with a serious anger management problem rant - now deleted, helais - concerning the guilty by association we - in his eyes - made of the carreerpath of ISM.

Now whe 'learn' by the same JV1973 the guilty by association on the riders he named - Danielson et all - was the truth. So, we can make a guilty by association with riders but not with Team Docs?

Funny stuff that pro cycling omerta.

 

[MacRoadie]

I think Tilford's analysis is right on.

Steve's never too far off base...

 

[Deagol]

....
As far as Danielson, he got really fast when he hired a coach who thought buying blood spinners was a good idea. Plus, he road on Saturn and was teammates with Horner, Klasna and Nathan O'Neil, so he certainly didn't have to go to Disco to learn how to dope.

I think Tilford's analysis is right on.

Crawford? I have heard this as well. Also that Rick coached LA way back in the early early days..

This stuff is hitting closer to home now...

 

[131313]

Crawford? I have heard this as well. Also that Rick coached LA way back in the early early days..

This stuff is hitting closer to home now...

Yeah, when he hired Crawford is when he got fast. BTW, Crawford now hates LA. He went on a drunken twitter rant, which he deleted but I was lucky enough to see. It was pretty awesome. But it's time for him to step up himself, because he's not innocent in all of this mess.

If you look at team Saturn's roster over the years it's comical how many dope-fueled riders have gone through there; Levi, Sbeih, Klasna, Horner, O'Neil, Danielson...the list goes on..and on...and on.....

So, maybe Tyler had to go to Bruyneel to learn how to dope, but many of the guys were well-versed in doping when they got there. Rene Wenzel was running the team for chrissakes.. So the one question I have for Tilford is why does he think it's surprising they'd take on a doped Danielson?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Tygart has a UCI mole. Deepthroat. Double-agent. Garanteed. Armstrong knows. That is why he is so crazy to get this tossed on procedural 'flaw'...

If that's true, then much of the posturing by the UCI is for nothing. Which, would be nice. But so far the press doesn't touch the UCI.

What if it's Alain Rumpf out for at least Pat's job? That would be epic backstabbing the likes of which one only sees in the movies.

I think the bonus rounds of litigation are still coming no matter what happens at the UCI when the UCI fabricates a reason for taking their mess to CAS.

I think JV is a practical guy when it comes to protecting his team's reputation as anti-doping and has acted to extend the perception of anti-doping more than anything else. It's the kind of outcome the UCI could only dream about cultivating. Steve's language may not be artful at times, but good for him for keeping the heat on.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

If that's true, then much of the posturing by the UCI is for nothing. Which, would be nice. But so far the press doesn't touch the UCI.

What if it's Alain Rumpf out for at least Pat's job? That would be epic backstabbing the likes of which one only sees in the movies.

I think the bonus rounds of litigation are still coming no matter what happens at the UCI when the UCI fabricates a reason for taking their mess to CAS.

I think JV is a practical guy when it comes to protecting his team's reputation as anti-doping and has acted to extend the perception of anti-doping more than anything else. It's the kind of outcome the UCI could only dream about cultivating. Steve's language may not be artful at times, but good for him for keeping the heat on.

I am not able to catch what is on Steve's site at my office. For some unknown reason "Personal Sites" are blocked.

What does he say?

 

[reginagold]

JV had it right, for his pocketbook at least, when his position was truth to WADA, obfuscation to the media. Now, with everyone under pressure from the expected avalanche of evidence/Tyler's book, they are hurrying towards the protection of the group called Everyone Did It, Even Me. Alas, current and prospective sponsors are backing away at lightspeed. Lance built it, and the artificial means he needed to become the main star, now are burning the sport down.

 

[BroDeal]

Steve's never too far off base...

And yet the comments section is filled with people saying Tommy D. was killing them at MTB races when he was sixteen. That does not quite match up with Tilford's timeline of Danielson's improvement.

Beyond Tommy D., Tilford basically says that TD must still be doping and JV is covering for him. If JV was going to cover for a doper then why not choose one with more talent, both physical and mental? JV's assertion that he looks for talented riders that can perform as the sport gets cleaner makes a lot more sense, especially when it is applied to a mentally weak but talented rider who could make big improvements if he got his head in the right place.