Vaughters hints he may have dabbled (in doping)

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jimmypop

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People are all quick to forget that JV lied under oath in his SCA deposition.

First he played with hot sauce (IM conversation), then he didn't (SCA). He knows where his bread is buttered, and damn him for not standing up to Armstrong.
 

Barrus

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AS MArtin already stated, unless this thread goes a different direction than the other JV thread this one will be closed.
So do not bring up the same insults and the same attacking posts.
 
Oct 31, 2010
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I think it's good that CN is publishing the interview, recut/gurged whatever. I'm looking foward tot he following part, the bit where he turns into Mgt.
Not often discussed in here, just how you make that move.
What does make a good tam Mgr?
How do you setup a team?
How on earth do you get riders to quit contracts running to come over to your team..?

Be far more interested in that aspect..
 
Dr. Maserati said:
The person making him out to be something he is not is you.

Obtuse.

–adjective
1. not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.
2. not sharp, acute, or pointed; blunt in form.
3. (of a leaf, petal, etc.) rounded at the extremity.
4. indistinctly felt or perceived, as pain or sound.
Allow me, if you will, to change my observation from "obtuse" to dishonest and totally full of crap.

Why? Read below...


jimmypop said:
People are all quick to forget that JV lied under oath in his SCA deposition.

First he played with hot sauce (IM conversation), then he didn't (SCA). He knows where his bread is buttered, and damn him for not standing up to Armstrong.
Let me guess...Vaughters gets a pass for trying to change cycling "from the inside"...yeah. OK. That's as pathetic as any Armstrong fanboy/apologist rant I've ever heard.

He's just another director sportif who used PED's and now goes around spouting platitudes about cycling "changing" and how his team rides clean without really going into detail on what that "change" is. Vague, opaque statements so he doesn't get blackballed from cycling. No better than someone like Bjarne Riis, except Riis actually won a Tour.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Berzin said:
Allow me, if you will, to change my observation from "obtuse" to dishonest and totally full of crap.

Why? Read below...




Let me guess...Vaughters gets a pass for trying to change cycling "from the inside"...yeah. OK. That's as pathetic as any Armstrong fanboy/apologist rant I've ever heard.
By all means change your position - but again you may want to check out what you are basing your opinion on.

Vaughters was not deposed, he did not testify nor was any of his 'evidence' brought up in the SCA case as it was settled.

JV signed an affidavit - which was used by Armstrong, his lawyers and PR team to try and rubbish the Andreus testimony.
So you guessed wrong - well done for repeating the LA "fanboy/apologist rant".
 
Jun 22, 2009
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Berzin said:
Allow me, if you will, to change my observation from "obtuse" to dishonest and totally full of crap.
haha, i actually liked your word choice. his comments ARE obtuse, dull, imprecise, etc. worse however, he is deliberately so.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Ok - I see you added in another piece to your post.

Berzin said:
Allow me, if you will, to change my observation from "obtuse" to dishonest and totally full of crap.

Why? Read below...




Let me guess...Vaughters gets a pass for trying to change cycling "from the inside"...yeah. OK. That's as pathetic as any Armstrong fanboy/apologist rant I've ever heard.

He's just another director sportif who used PED's and now goes around spouting platitudes about cycling "changing" and how his team rides clean without really going into detail on what that "change" is. Vague, opaque statements so he doesn't get blackballed from cycling. No better than someone like Bjarne Riis, except Riis actually won a Tour.
Yes - he took PEDs.

Again - JV cannot change cycling, he only has control of his own team which is under scrutiny from Don Catlin - Catlin is no Damsgaard.
Also JV has allowed journalists etc access to his team at any time - the only other team to offer themselves to that scrutiny was Team Sky who reneged on the deal just before the Tour.
 
Jun 22, 2009
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Barrus said:
AS MArtin already stated, unless this thread goes a different direction than the other JV thread this one will be closed.
So do not bring up the same insults and the same attacking posts.
i'm very indifferent concerning JV. i really don't feel strongly about the guy but i DO understand that others have mostly made up their minds and are frustrated by his ambiguity.

i DON'T understand the hypersensitivity mods/admins have in the clinic regarding JV and i DON'T understand the way some rush to his defense. he's a team owner and very little else. i'm not sure what he's accomplished to actually clean up the sport. marketing his team as clean doesn't really cut it. he's open to criticism like any other public figure. if he doesn't like it he can go sell insurance.

lastly, if you are hoping that JV is "cleaning it up from the inside" you're a fool. he's not pulling strings behind the scenes, operating as a mole for federal investigators, or plotting a suprise coup of the UCI. if that's your fantasy give it up. he's probably got his hands full balancing the books let alone turning a profit. he'd rather profit from the success of clean riders but i think that even that line has gotten blurry.
 

Barrus

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lean said:
i'm very indifferent concerning JV. i really don't feel strongly about the guy but i DO understand that others have mostly made up their minds and are frustrated by his ambiguity.

i DON'T understand the hypersensitivity mods/admins have in the clinic regarding JV and i DON'T understand the way some rush to his defense. he's a team owner and very little else. i'm not sure what he's accomplished to actually clean up the sport. marketing his team as clean doesn't really cut it. he's open to criticism like any other public figure. if he doesn't like it he can go sell insurance.

lastly, if you are hoping that JV is "cleaning it up from the inside" you're a fool. he's not pulling strings behind the scenes, operating as a mole for federal investigators, or plotting a suprise coup of the UCI. if that's your fantasy give it up. he's probably got his hands full balancing the books let alone turning a profit. he'd rather profit from the success of clean riders but i think that even that line has gotten blurry.
We do not say that there can't be criticism about him, however the last few threads about him sprialed out of control, and we don't want that to happen again
 
May 26, 2010
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Somehow it seems from my very distant position that it is easy to appear to be an angel amongst a pack of devils.

I do think JV made what appeared to be steps in the right direction, but how far he has moved from the Omerta and to a path of a PED free team, we will probably never know till it has passed into sporting history.

For me this debate/dicussion on JV has gone on long enough for people to hear and have expressed theirs and others opinion of how JV runs Garmin and it is getting boring. CN publishing bits of old interviews is not a positive sign of what JV is doing in cycling to change it, but apart from speak out about the doping what can he do at the moment. But what do i know? i dont work for him or race against him.

I for one would welcome a more vocal outrage from those who purport to race clean. Where are all the riders from 'ridepure' and their quotes.
 

Dr. Maserati

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lean said:
i'm very indifferent concerning JV. i really don't feel strongly about the guy but i DO understand that others have mostly made up their minds and are frustrated by his ambiguity.

i DON'T understand the hypersensitivity mods/admins have in the clinic regarding JV and i DON'T understand the way some rush to his defense. he's a team owner and very little else. i'm not sure what he's accomplished to actually clean up the sport. marketing his team as clean doesn't really cut it. he's open to criticism like any other public figure. if he doesn't like it he can go sell insurance.

lastly, if you are hoping that JV is "cleaning it up from the inside" you're a fool. he's not pulling strings behind the scenes, operating as a mole for federal investigators, or plotting a suprise coup of the UCI. if that's your fantasy give it up. he's probably got his hands full balancing the books let alone turning a profit. he'd rather profit from the success of clean riders but i think that even that line has gotten blurry.
I agree with most of what you say - but it is posters here that are slamming the guy for things he either did not do or for not doing things that he has no control over.

Case in point - your observation of JV "changing things from the inside". What he is doing with his team has some (small) effect on the sport - but again JV has never said he is trying to do that, or (IMO) is he even trying to.


You also say "i DON'T understand the way some rush to his defense" - as I am the only one backing up JV I will assume you're addressing that to me.
Im not defending JVs position- but I am pointing out that he is being accused of lot of things he has not done, said or has control over.

I agree with your comments on the Mods intervention - JV is a public figure, we should be allowed discuss/debate what he does or says.
So I hope the Mods don't close this thread - but I can understand why they feel the need to step in when a lot of the stuff said about JV is patently wrong - but again thats should be for posters to address.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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lean said:
i DON'T understand the hypersensitivity mods/admins have in the clinic regarding JV and i DON'T understand the way some rush to his defense.
I understand. News organizations want to keep their access to certain people. Certain news orgs (like NY Times, L'Equipe, Times of London, Wall Street Journal) simply can't be ignored. They have power, so they can ask most anything they like. Organizations like this one, Velonews, etc... They're often put on the crap-list if they ask questions that anger the subject (of if they allow their readers to bash them on the forums).

CN wants to keep the access intact. Of course, naturally, my post will soon be refuted.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Case in point - your observation of JV "changing things from the inside". What he is doing with his team has some (small) effect on the sport - but again JV has never said he is trying to do that, or (IMO) is he even trying to.
I wish I owned a company/product and had the ability to spin a market positioning as effectively as he does by not saying much of anything. Why pump $30MM into a Superbowl ad when you can just give $8MM to JV? He'll make that $8MM last a lifetime (and won't say a thing).
 
Jun 22, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
I understand. News organizations want to keep their access to certain people. Certain news orgs (like NY Times, L'Equipe, Times of London, Wall Street Journal) simply can't be ignored. They have power, so they can ask most anything they like. Organizations like this one, Velonews, etc... They're often put on the crap-list if they ask questions that anger the subject (of if they allow their readers to bash them on the forums).

CN wants to keep the access intact. Of course, naturally, my post will soon be refuted.
i understood too, i was being "deliberately obtuse" hoping others would connect those dots so i didn't have to take the heat. ;)
 

Dr. Maserati

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BotanyBay said:
I wish I owned a company/product and had the ability to spin a market positioning as effectively as he does by not saying much of anything. Why pump $30MM into a Superbowl ad when you can just give $8MM to JV? He'll make that $8MM last a lifetime (and won't say a thing).
You're well on the way - as the above post says nothing about anything.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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I have to agree with Lean mean and Green on this one....
Sometimes empty vessels make the loudest sound.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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lean said:
i understood too, i was being "deliberately obtuse" hoping others would connect those dots so i didn't have to take the heat. ;)
I'd probably be more successful in business if I were better at being "Deliberately Obtuse". Does Carmichael offer any Winter camps in Martinique for that?
 

Barrus

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BotanyBay said:
I understand. News organizations want to keep their access to certain people. Certain news orgs (like NY Times, L'Equipe, Times of London, Wall Street Journal) simply can't be ignored. They have power, so they can ask most anything they like. Organizations like this one, Velonews, etc... They're often put on the crap-list if they ask questions that anger the subject (of if they allow their readers to bash them on the forums).

CN wants to keep the access intact. Of course, naturally, my post will soon be refuted.
You do realise that the company Cycling News is almost completely not related with the manner in which we moderate. Susan might work for CN, but further most of us do not have links with CN. With the exception of the reinstatement of the BoB thread the management of CN rarely adresses anything on the forum.

They have never said to us that we could not allow JV threads to exist. Our reaction to these threads is that these threads lately really went wrong and we do not want that to happen in this thread as well, so keep this thread clean. That also means no more off-topic debate about moderation, take that to the 'about the forum'-subforum, or this thread will be closed.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
Ok - I see you added in another piece to your post.



Yes - he took PEDs.

Again - JV cannot change cycling, he only has control of his own team which is under scrutiny from Don Catlin - Catlin is no Damsgaard.
Also JV has allowed journalists etc access to his team at any time - the only other team to offer themselves to that scrutiny was Team Sky who reneged on the deal just before the Tour.
Catlin is a lab rat. He is one of the best in that field but does he really get the emerging explorations of bio markers and output? Probably not. He has also supported some rather questionable athletes over the years, giving them his stamp of cleanliness. Often it appears he is swayed by his personal friendships, much the way Damsgaard was.

As for JV. The goal is to win the war, not the battle. Sure, he could have come out with guns blazing a few years ago.....and there would be no Slipstream and he would not be head of the Pro Teams. Often the best strategy is to stay in the game. It is always easier to change the game from the inside rather then on the sidelines tossing rocks and getting smeared.

Ultimately it appears this strategy will have some success. The Feds will take care of Johann, Lance, Weisel, et al. JV will be running the top team in the world, pulling in serious cash based on the "Clean team" marketing and professional structure. Pro Teams copy what works. In the 2000's Johann ran the dopingest, most toxic, team around and made millions off it.....other teams did the same. Now JV is poised to have the top team in the world and that team is not based on needles, doctors, exploitation, and intimidation. This must be of some value to the sport.
 

Dr. Maserati

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BotanyBay said:
I understand. News organizations want to keep their access to certain people. Certain news orgs (like NY Times, L'Equipe, Times of London, Wall Street Journal) simply can't be ignored. They have power, so they can ask most anything they like. Organizations like this one, Velonews, etc... They're often put on the crap-list if they ask questions that anger the subject (of if they allow their readers to bash them on the forums).

CN wants to keep the access intact. Of course, naturally, my post will soon be refuted.
Much of what you say may be true of the main website and certainly other publications.

But to the highlighted - this is the 3rd JV thread in as many weeks
where nothing new has been brought up, so if the forum mods have an agenda they are applying it poorly.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Race Radio said:
Catlin is a lab rat. He is one of the best in that field but does he really get the emerging explorations of bio markers and output? Probably not. He has also supported some rather questionable athletes over the years, giving them his stamp of cleanliness. Often it appears he is swayed by his personal friendships, much the way Damsgaard was.

As for JV. The goal is to win the war, not the battle. Sure, he could have come out with guns blazing a few years ago.....and there would be no Slipstream and he would not be head of the Pro Teams. Often the best strategy is to stay in the game. It is always easier to change the game from the inside rather then on the sidelines tossing rocks and getting smeared.

Ultimately it appears this strategy will have some success. The Feds will take care of Johann, Lance, Weisel, et al. JV will be running the top team in the world, pulling in serious cash based on the "Clean team" marketing and professional structure. Pro Teams copy what works. In the 2000's Johann ran the dopingest, most toxic, team around and made millions off it.....other teams did the same. Now JV is poised to have the top team in the world and that team is not based on needles, doctors, exploitation, and intimidation. This must be of some value to the sport.
An obvious improvement on Johann's domination of the scene, but the interesting thing is going to be what JV's reaction is if/when one of his riders gets popped. Based on historical analysis, it's bound to happen at some point...

I'm not getting rid of my bucket of rocks just yet...
 

Barrus

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JMBeaushrimp said:
An obvious improvement on Johann's domination of the scene, but the interesting thing is going to be what JV's reaction is if/when one of his riders gets popped. Based on historical analysis, it's bound to happen at some point...

I'm not getting rid of my bucket of rocks just yet...
To be quite honest, I think his reaction would be dependant upon who it is. If it is a minor rider I believe the reaction would be similar to the reaction of Radioshack in Fuyu Li's case. However if it is a significant rider who is quite important to the future of Garmin, or at least responsible for a significant amount of wins, for example Farrar or Hushovd, I believe his reaction would be quite similar as most teams when big riders get popped. Stating that it must be a mistake, supporting the rider, untill this became ridiculious and then denouncing the rider and stating that he did everything on his own, without any suspicion of any of the team
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Much of what you say may be true of the main website and certainly other publications.

But to the highlighted - this is the 3rd JV thread in as many weeks
where nothing new has been brought up, so if the forum mods have an agenda they are applying it poorly.
So long as the conversation about JV is benign, they'll allow it. I never said that his name was untouchable, but I believe his name is more closely watched. Say the wrong thing and you'll wonder how you can get away with saying the same kind of thing about "dopers" like Lance or AC, but never JV.

Armstrong won't be granting any exclusives to CN, as they "pee in his soup", so it's OK to have 10 threads going that explore everything from his singular testes to his supposed obsession with Greg's kid. He's fair game. But not JV.
 

Dr. Maserati

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BotanyBay said:
So long as the conversation about JV is benign, they'll allow it. I never said that his name was untouchable, but I believe his name is more closely watched. Say the wrong thing and you'll wonder how you can get away with saying the same kind of thing about "dopers" like Lance or AC, but never JV.

Armstrong won't be granting any exclusives to CN, as they "pee in his soup", so it's OK to have 10 threads going that explore everything from his singular testes to his supposed obsession with Greg's kid. He's fair game. But not JV.
Have you been asked by the Mods to curb your posts? Do you seriously think all the posts on this thread are benign??

There have been 3 threads on JV - with lots of posts bashing JV.

I have not seen one deleted even when some of the comments are complete fabrication.
The only problem on those threads was Buckwheat bringing in politics and ignoring a warning not to do so.
 

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