The huntsmen in the lodge were invariably getting drunk and someone was always shot. By contrast, the gardeners in the orangery never ceased to dance and make love in the grove.
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rhubroma said:The huntsmen in the lodge were invariably getting drunk and someone was always shot. By contrast, the gardeners in the orangery never ceased to dance and make love in the grove.
StyrbjornSterki said:Plants can 'feel' you picking them!
Video shows that leaves fire off pain signals to warn their neighbours of danger when attacked
* Plant leaves send pain signals that are similar to those found in human beings
* The response is so sensitive it can be set off by the footprints of a caterpillar
* It triggers a release of defence hormones to help protect the plant from danger
Oops.
Jspear said:ray j willings said:I'm becoming more and more convinced that vegan is the way to go. Its just a bacon sandwich with ketchup, I cant stop myself .
Yes, imo you have to be a hard core vegan/vegetarian to fight off the temptation of bacon. I have a friend who raises pigs...freshly cured bacon is simply heavenly.
Sorry...back to the normal conversation here.
The vegan revolution is here, and there are fortunes to be made.
:lol:Beauty blogs now refer uncritically to something called a “vegan glow.”
Rock on, man!gregrowlerson said:Jspear said:ray j willings said:I'm becoming more and more convinced that vegan is the way to go. Its just a bacon sandwich with ketchup, I cant stop myself .
Yes, imo you have to be a hard core vegan/vegetarian to fight off the temptation of bacon. I have a friend who raises pigs...freshly cured bacon is simply heavenly.
Sorry...back to the normal conversation here.
Interesting to see this thread finally get a BUMP. I wondered where it had gone to, and now it's back!
I cannot remember my exact comments without re-reading, but a few years ago I was interested in this subject and made the occasional comments here. I've become even more interested in the time that has passed, and am pretty much living Vegan now, without being a Vegan (I feel socially awkward in certain situations and am not someone who is confrontational, plus I think it's hypocritical to take too big a stance when I was only recently a meat eater myself, etc). I haven't eaten meat since the end of last year, which involved telling my parents that I was becoming vegetarian since I would have a get together meal with them once a week that involved meat. In fact, I tell a lie....I started this year still eating fish; that was my compromise with them, but now that's done with too. It can become rather socially difficult for all parties once someone changes their consumption habits so much, even if you are not confrontational. My Mum has been noticing me not eating animal products so much when around them too. It's a real catch 22. Doing what feels right for you vs. still getting along with others. Even my housemate seems to have issues with it, in the sense that he'll 'jokingly' bring up what I'm eating/drinking - or not - often. I don't pass judgement on his eating meat and drinking milk, but you see, I am passing judgement, in a way, by not consuming what he is. One of his ways of being nice to me was to offer me chocolates and stuff too; there is probably natural offence taken to my kind and quiet rejection.
Learning more and more about this subject, I have to say that Vegans are right. They may not go about expressing their views in the right way all the time, but generally speaking they are right. It is reasonably healthy to not consume animal products, and in much of the western world it is, much of the time, fairly unnecessary to consume them. However, contrary to what many Vegans preach, it is not easy to go Vegan.
At least in Australia, if you walk down a mainstream supermarket chocolate aisle, then 99% of that chocolate will not be Vegan. What's more, most Vegan foods do not have VEGAN plastered across them in shiny letters. And the number of grey areas when it comes to whether something is vegan or not, is huge. Trust me, I know, because I always look out for this stuff now. And even when you might think something is Vegan, then look a little closer, and a lot of the time it has a little egg, or a little milk, or a little cheese.
Slowly more Vegan options are infiltrating into mainstream stores though. There is now a Vegan cheeseburger at Hungry Jacks/Burger King, though at this stage still only in select stores (and not in Victoria where I live I think; whereas South Australia seems to be making the switch at a faster rate). I've been buying a Veggie Patty at Subway for years (which might not even be Vegan, a lot of stuff like that is definitely vegetarian, but questionable when it comes to the big V), and now they have a falafel wrap, which tastes great, and is Vegan. Praise the Lord! But I would have it with sweet chilli sauce, and so decided to look it up, and if you google that you will see that some sweet chilli sauces have animal products.
People who say that it is easy to go Vegan are not helping matters.
Two other subject matters are largely ignored when it comes to Veganism, and they can be related to each other. One is that food is very important to some people. Well, food is very important to everyone :lol: But what I mean is that it is a HUGE passion for some people, their favourite thing in life, a major aspect of what makes them happy. This is where many Vegans miss the point again. It is much easier to go Vegan (or to at least reduce your consumption of animal products) if eating is not one of your biggest passions. Personally I've always felt that much more pleasure and meaningfulness could be derived from walking up a mountain, or gazing at a beautiful lake, or listening to some wonderful music, or doing some personal writing. But I am not everyone. For most people what they consume is their way of life, and in a way even their identity. Now that I am discovering all of the Vegan sausages, quinoa burgers, sausage rolls and nuggets that are out there (and that they taste nice and are filling enough) it might seem 'easy', but even I can see that it is not easy for someone who enjoys bacon on a weekly basis.
On that subject, I used to like bacon, but not as much as many other people. And after a while of not eating it, and changing my mindset, I do not miss it at all. I don't see bacon in a burger and feel a desire to eat it. You would probably think that I am lying! But I am not.
Also related to the earlier subject is the fact that many people simply live very busy, very stressful, very unhappy lives. They're tied up to a spouse that they don't love, work a job that gives them grief, and just generally don't really have a lot to look forward to. Consuming that "wonderful, magical animal" is their source of happiness. If people need to make changes at all, then those changes need to be gradual.
By the way, I care a little about animals, but not as much as most Vegans do. I don't lose sleep over all of the animals that are dying 'needlessly' every second. There is a lot of bad that happens in the world. If we blamed ourselves for that then it would be difficult to feel very happy, very often. Fortunately for me, I am rather selfish.
Oh, and pets are another big subject here. I have two dogs, and am becoming more and more aware of the major contradiction between loving them, and killing hundreds/thousands of animals to feed them. I am going to attempt to transition them away from meat, or at least to less meat, but even if this is possible, then again this is something that is not made easy. Try walking down an aisle full of dog and cat food and finding anything vegetarian. You will probably have more luck with trying to find a clean professional cyclist
veganrob said:Rock on, man!gregrowlerson said:Jspear said:ray j willings said:I'm becoming more and more convinced that vegan is the way to go. Its just a bacon sandwich with ketchup, I cant stop myself .
Yes, imo you have to be a hard core vegan/vegetarian to fight off the temptation of bacon. I have a friend who raises pigs...freshly cured bacon is simply heavenly.
Sorry...back to the normal conversation here.
Interesting to see this thread finally get a BUMP. I wondered where it had gone to, and now it's back!
I cannot remember my exact comments without re-reading, but a few years ago I was interested in this subject and made the occasional comments here. I've become even more interested in the time that has passed, and am pretty much living Vegan now, without being a Vegan (I feel socially awkward in certain situations and am not someone who is confrontational, plus I think it's hypocritical to take too big a stance when I was only recently a meat eater myself, etc). I haven't eaten meat since the end of last year, which involved telling my parents that I was becoming vegetarian since I would have a get together meal with them once a week that involved meat. In fact, I tell a lie....I started this year still eating fish; that was my compromise with them, but now that's done with too. It can become rather socially difficult for all parties once someone changes their consumption habits so much, even if you are not confrontational. My Mum has been noticing me not eating animal products so much when around them too. It's a real catch 22. Doing what feels right for you vs. still getting along with others. Even my housemate seems to have issues with it, in the sense that he'll 'jokingly' bring up what I'm eating/drinking - or not - often. I don't pass judgement on his eating meat and drinking milk, but you see, I am passing judgement, in a way, by not consuming what he is. One of his ways of being nice to me was to offer me chocolates and stuff too; there is probably natural offence taken to my kind and quiet rejection.
Learning more and more about this subject, I have to say that Vegans are right. They may not go about expressing their views in the right way all the time, but generally speaking they are right. It is reasonably healthy to not consume animal products, and in much of the western world it is, much of the time, fairly unnecessary to consume them. However, contrary to what many Vegans preach, it is not easy to go Vegan.
At least in Australia, if you walk down a mainstream supermarket chocolate aisle, then 99% of that chocolate will not be Vegan. What's more, most Vegan foods do not have VEGAN plastered across them in shiny letters. And the number of grey areas when it comes to whether something is vegan or not, is huge. Trust me, I know, because I always look out for this stuff now. And even when you might think something is Vegan, then look a little closer, and a lot of the time it has a little egg, or a little milk, or a little cheese.
Slowly more Vegan options are infiltrating into mainstream stores though. There is now a Vegan cheeseburger at Hungry Jacks/Burger King, though at this stage still only in select stores (and not in Victoria where I live I think; whereas South Australia seems to be making the switch at a faster rate). I've been buying a Veggie Patty at Subway for years (which might not even be Vegan, a lot of stuff like that is definitely vegetarian, but questionable when it comes to the big V), and now they have a falafel wrap, which tastes great, and is Vegan. Praise the Lord! But I would have it with sweet chilli sauce, and so decided to look it up, and if you google that you will see that some sweet chilli sauces have animal products.
People who say that it is easy to go Vegan are not helping matters.
Two other subject matters are largely ignored when it comes to Veganism, and they can be related to each other. One is that food is very important to some people. Well, food is very important to everyone :lol: But what I mean is that it is a HUGE passion for some people, their favourite thing in life, a major aspect of what makes them happy. This is where many Vegans miss the point again. It is much easier to go Vegan (or to at least reduce your consumption of animal products) if eating is not one of your biggest passions. Personally I've always felt that much more pleasure and meaningfulness could be derived from walking up a mountain, or gazing at a beautiful lake, or listening to some wonderful music, or doing some personal writing. But I am not everyone. For most people what they consume is their way of life, and in a way even their identity. Now that I am discovering all of the Vegan sausages, quinoa burgers, sausage rolls and nuggets that are out there (and that they taste nice and are filling enough) it might seem 'easy', but even I can see that it is not easy for someone who enjoys bacon on a weekly basis.
On that subject, I used to like bacon, but not as much as many other people. And after a while of not eating it, and changing my mindset, I do not miss it at all. I don't see bacon in a burger and feel a desire to eat it. You would probably think that I am lying! But I am not.
Also related to the earlier subject is the fact that many people simply live very busy, very stressful, very unhappy lives. They're tied up to a spouse that they don't love, work a job that gives them grief, and just generally don't really have a lot to look forward to. Consuming that "wonderful, magical animal" is their source of happiness. If people need to make changes at all, then those changes need to be gradual.
By the way, I care a little about animals, but not as much as most Vegans do. I don't lose sleep over all of the animals that are dying 'needlessly' every second. There is a lot of bad that happens in the world. If we blamed ourselves for that then it would be difficult to feel very happy, very often. Fortunately for me, I am rather selfish.
Oh, and pets are another big subject here. I have two dogs, and am becoming more and more aware of the major contradiction between loving them, and killing hundreds/thousands of animals to feed them. I am going to attempt to transition them away from meat, or at least to less meat, but even if this is possible, then again this is something that is not made easy. Try walking down an aisle full of dog and cat food and finding anything vegetarian. You will probably have more luck with trying to find a clean professional cyclist
King Boonen said:Gregrowlerson, are you confusing being a vegan with eating a plant based diet? Have you "gone vegan" in all facets of your life or is it just food?
red_flanders said:So to Boonen's question above, I'm wondering what your reasons or goals are around changing your diet. For me, "Vegan" is kind of a hot-button word, when you say you're a vegan people make all kinds of assumptions about your motivations, ethics, and start grilling you about it. Basically a mild form of interrogation meant at exposing some flaw in your philosophy. Apparently people find it threatening as you discuss, for one to reject the societal norm of eating meat. Now "plant-based diet" is a bit of a mouthful, but it doesn't have the same baggage socially. Don't get me wrong, when people figure out you don't eat meat they still have questions and still feel threatened, but the reaction is milder.
Personally my goal when switching was health. From everything I can glean from the science, there really is no healthier way to eat. Given that, I don't really worry about the little details you mention above, like chocolate, or the ingredients of every food. What I do is eat whole plant foods 95% of the time 'and not worry about the rest. Now that won't work for an ethical vegan, but it's not clear to me that's your reason for choosing this path. But for me it works fine. I get a huge health benefit and massively reduce my carbon footprint. I don't try and eat foods that mimic animal products, they never satisfy. I just eat plants.
Try reading "Eat to Live" by Joel Fuhrnan. Fantastic stuff.
King Boonen said:I will involve myself more when I get chance. The main reason I asked is because eating a plant-based diet and Veganism are two very different things. Similarly, if I decide to keep Kosher or Halal, that wouldn't make me Jewish or Muslim. Being vegan requires you to make every effort to do the least harm you can, across your whole life. What interests me in that regard is where people draw the line, how they determine what is least harm and so on.
I've previously posted in this thread about the mouse plague carried out in Australia (I think). This is done to preserve crops for people and, depending on your opinion and how you calculate things, can result in a vegan meal being more cruel than an omnivorous meal. Farming animals on only pasture is another interesting question. Does the husbandry and slaughter outweigh the ecological system this farming supports, effectively providing for many other animals, insects and so on? Do people value the life of an insect to the same level they value that of a cow? Surely a vegan must, otherwise they are doing the same thing they accuse omnivores of doing, determining which life is more important. (Lets not even get into the ridiculous discussion around plants being alive and so on, it's not even worth wasting time on).
This isn't about sitting in judgement and attempting to trip people up by the way. I'm well aware that anyone making a conscious effort to move towards eating less meat is almost certain to do less harm than someone who doesn't. Even those who research everything about an omnivorous diet, buy crops that are not treated to remove insects etc., only buy meat from farms raising animals on pasture and only locally to cut down on their carbon footprint and the damage to animals in this sense are still likely to do more harm than someone eating a plant based diet and doing something to remove animal products from other aspects of their lives.
As this is a cycling internet forum I'll point out 2 interesting areas where Veganism is relevant. Certain tyre manufacturers use animal products in their rubber (I think continental do). How many vegan cyclists would think to look this up and stop using these brands? What about computers/phones etc? Getting the raw materials to produce these things is incredibly destructive and kills countless animals. How many vegans only buy these items second hand and avoid purchasing anything unless they absolutely need it? I haven't contributed to this industry for about 5+ years I think (I've had a Kindle bought for me but all my other electronics are second-hand/provided by work as a requirement of my job). Does this make me more vegan than the person who eats a vegan diet but buys every console and game they can get their hands on, updates their phone every 6 months and is constantly replacing parts in their PC to improve its performance? Can they justify it by saying these things are necessary? I can see good arguments for and against this, after all science is the thing that keeps us alive, art is the things that makes us want to live.
I think the fundamental issue most people have with Veganism, at least the issue I see most in discussions, is that it's presented as an absolutism when simply explained/advertised, and this simply isn't the case.
of which are perpetualised by advertising/marketing...aphronesis said:I think there’s another aspect as well: not just that it’s different, but it’s a rejection, refusal or turning away from pretty much commonplace conventions and status markers.
RedheadDane said:What exactly is the definition of a 'Flexitarian'? Is it just someone who sometimes doesn't eat meat - and other animal-based products?