Teams & Riders Vincenzo Nibali discussion thread

[cineteq]

Re: Re:

Oh, come on, don't be a troll

So Nibali has basically won a butchered Tour and one butchered Giro.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

You sound like the Secret Pro. Elementary nonsense.

For this reason beating someone who crashed, isn't the same as beating someone who didn't. It's really quite elementary my dear Watson.

Oh, come on. You folks agree that when the leader goes down its as if you beat him with your own legs. Utter tosh. Nibali is the luckiest GT winner out there. Period. He wouldn't have won the Giro without the crash and he would not have won the Tour without the crashes.

His actual palmares isn't a reflection of his real class. His head though is way bigger than his actual class. I was being kind before, but you have given me no choice. Cycling is about the big battles. Crashes negate them. Without the big battles, the race has been amputated, amputated underlined. So Nibali has basically won a butchered Tour and one butchered Giro.

If not butchered carved just the way he likes it. But I have no problem with the win I just have a problem with the cry babies who thought his race was done and were complaining about his poor form and then seemed to think it was a ride of one of the all time greats. Don't forget Anton was also leading the Vuelta and looking good when he crashed but Nibali could not beat old man Horner which was fun to watch but maybe for the wrong reasons !

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

People keep talking. Nibbles keep winning.
Looool.

Lol.

Btw, anyone remember Purito crashing out of the 2014 Giro. Ya never hear that stuff about Quintana

 

[Carols]

Hopefully the folks still whining about Nibali's Win a week later will turn their attention to the Dauphine tomorrow .

Meanwhile I'm sure Nibs is enjoying his victory and hopefully continuing his Exit Plan from Astana.

 

[Brullnux]

Re:

Hopefully the folks still whining about Nibali's Win a week later will turn their attention to the Dauphine tomorrow .

Meanwhile I'm sure Nibs is enjoying his victory and hopefully continuing his Exit Plan from Astana.

His Exit Plan seems to lead straight to Bahrain, unfortunately.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

People keep talking. Nibbles keep winning.
Looool.

Lol.

Btw, anyone remember Purito crashing out of the 2014 Giro. Ya never hear that stuff about Quintana

Purito wasn't the favourite when he crashed out, nor was he 5 mins ahead of Quintana.

 

[Climeon]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

I do wonder sometimes if people's problem with the secret pro is anything more than that the riders he says are unpopular/makes doping allusions about are the riders many people on here like. Would be interesting to see the reaction if he criticised an unpopular rider

 

[Carols]

Re: Re:

Hopefully the folks still whining about Nibali's Win a week later will turn their attention to the Dauphine tomorrow .

Meanwhile I'm sure Nibs is enjoying his victory and hopefully continuing his Exit Plan from Astana.

His Exit Plan seems to lead straight to Bahrain, unfortunately.

We'll see if the Prince is as bad as Vino soon enough I guess. Hopefully the atmosphere on the team will be more agreeable, with no worries abut licensing or letters, and he can be tranquillo Vince again. That is when he is at his best

 

[Climbing]

Re:

People keep talking. Nibbles keep winning.
Looool.

HEY, you stole my phrase!

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

People keep talking. Nibbles keep winning.
Looool.

Lol.

Btw, anyone remember Purito crashing out of the 2014 Giro. Ya never hear that stuff about Quintana

Purito wasn't the favourite when he crashed out, nor was he 5 mins ahead of Quintana.

He was the 2nd favorite, just behind Quintana..

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

People keep talking. Nibbles keep winning.
Looool.

Lol.

Btw, anyone remember Purito crashing out of the 2014 Giro. Ya never hear that stuff about Quintana

Purito wasn't the favourite when he crashed out, nor was he 5 mins ahead of Quintana.

He was the 2nd favorite, just behind Quintana..

Not 'just' behind Quintana, but a fair bit behind Quintana. Landa otoh was favourite when he crashed out of this year's Giro

 

[El Pistolero]

Landa got dropped on molehills in the Giro, he wasn't the top favorite. Quintana only won because he attacked when the race was neutralized anyway. Otherwise he'd have probably lost to Uran.

 

[bassano]

btw. when I read some TheSecretPro articles I am curious if there is really so much hate inside peloton, if there would be like 20 cyclist or more with his thoughts there should be real mess, for example when Nibali won giro, Valverde seemed to be 2nd most happy cyclist there from that, when he crossed line after him in Torino, it was nice moment from him, maybe it was because he grab spot on podium but still he did nice compliments to Nibali

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

You sound like the Secret Pro. Elementary nonsense.

For this reason beating someone who crashed, isn't the same as beating someone who didn't. It's really quite elementary my dear Watson.

Oh, come on. You folks agree that when the leader goes down its as if you beat him with your own legs. Utter tosh. Nibali is the luckiest GT winner out there. Period. He wouldn't have won the Giro without the crash and he would not have won the Tour without the crashes.

His actual palmares isn't a reflection of his real class. His head though is way bigger than his actual class. I was being kind before, but you have given me no choice. Cycling is about the big battles. Crashes negate them. Without the big battles, the race has been amputated, amputated underlined. So Nibali has basically won a butchered Tour and one butchered Giro.

And Kruijswijk's lead owed a healthy amount to Nibali's mechanical, which he had no control over at all. That wouldn't have been an amputated win?

People will go to ridiculous levels, riders crash, they have mechanicals, injuries, sickness etc. When does the crash need to occur to sully another riders win? stage 19 / 18 / 17 / 16 even before? does the downed rider need to be leading the race? some are even talking about a rider who didn't even get past stage 10 and was behind at the time. If a rider is at fault for his own crash but we make such allowances for the outcome do we do the same if the fault for lost time is a hunger knock? or if he has illness but can continue?

Nibali won a race without any outside interference effecting the outcome, sure people can discuss imaginary scenarios but these shouldn't be used to try and discredit the actual outcome and victory.

For the record I have "no problem" with the win. He won, this is a fact. But your argument is spurious and you know it.

When a rider crashes with an almost 5 min. lead in the climatic moments...well then that says something about the fortune of he who was able to win. No tears, no shouting in the wind, though we have to admit that the winner won, because his rival was eliminated from the competition.

This doesn't make the win less of a victory, though it does qualify it, otherwise it's the same as winning without amputation.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

People keep talking. Nibbles keep winning.
Looool.

Lol.

Btw, anyone remember Purito crashing out of the 2014 Giro. Ya never hear that stuff about Quintana

Purito wasn't the favourite when he crashed out, nor was he 5 mins ahead of Quintana.

He was the 2nd favorite, just behind Quintana..

Not 'just' behind Quintana, but a fair bit behind Quintana. Landa otoh was favourite when he crashed out of this year's Giro

Landa was no bigger favorite this year then Purito back then. Go check the previews for that Giro if you don;t believe me. In each one of them Purito was second favorite for the win, behind Quintana

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Landa did not ***crash*** out of this year's Giro.

 

[SeriousSam]

Landa was not the favourite for the Giro before it started. He became the favourite after the ITT. Then he withdrew. SK was a huge favourite before he crashed.

It doesn't happen often that the two most likely riders to win a GT, at different points in time, both suffer misfortune. In fact, only one other occasion comes readily to mind. The Tour 2014.

 

[The Principal Sheep]

Re: Re:

Oh, come on. You folks agree that when the leader goes down its as if you beat him with your own legs. Utter tosh. Nibali is the luckiest GT winner out there. Period. He wouldn't have won the Giro without the crash and he would not have won the Tour without the crashes.

His actual palmares isn't a reflection of his real class. His head though is way bigger than his actual class. I was being kind before, but you have given me no choice. Cycling is about the big battles. Crashes negate them. Without the big battles, the race has been amputated, amputated underlined. So Nibali has basically won a butchered Tour and one butchered Giro.

And Kruijswijk's lead owed a healthy amount to Nibali's mechanical, which he had no control over at all. That wouldn't have been an amputated win?

People will go to ridiculous levels, riders crash, they have mechanicals, injuries, sickness etc. When does the crash need to occur to sully another riders win? stage 19 / 18 / 17 / 16 even before? does the downed rider need to be leading the race? some are even talking about a rider who didn't even get past stage 10 and was behind at the time. If a rider is at fault for his own crash but we make such allowances for the outcome do we do the same if the fault for lost time is a hunger knock? or if he has illness but can continue?

Nibali won a race without any outside interference effecting the outcome, sure people can discuss imaginary scenarios but these shouldn't be used to try and discredit the actual outcome and victory.

For the record I have "no problem" with the win. He won, this is a fact. But your argument is spurious and you know it.

When a rider crashes with an almost 5 min. lead in the climatic moments...well then that says something about the fortune of he who was able to win. No tears, no shouting in the wind, though we have to admit that the winner won, because his rival was eliminated from the competition.

This doesn't make the win less of a victory, though it does qualify it, otherwise it's the same as winning without amputation.

You say that Nibali's 'rival was eliminated from the competition' which is ambiguous, from my view he eliminated himself which is a difference. Now, you read an arguement where there was none and decided to take rise rather than answer so let me ask you (and please see this as conversation without ruffling your own feathers)

If a rider loses time by carelessly crashing by himself, or loses time by not eating/drinking correctly throughout the stage or loses time through illness from the night before, do you see these as all being the same? if the leader loses a 4 minute lead in a closing stage to his competitors due to such a discernible cause is this enough for your asterisk?

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

Lol.

Btw, anyone remember Purito crashing out of the 2014 Giro. Ya never hear that stuff about Quintana

Purito wasn't the favourite when he crashed out, nor was he 5 mins ahead of Quintana.

He was the 2nd favorite, just behind Quintana..

Not 'just' behind Quintana, but a fair bit behind Quintana. Landa otoh was favourite when he crashed out of this year's Giro

Landa was no bigger favorite this year then Purito back then. Go check the previews for that Giro if you don;t believe me. In each one of them Purito was second favorite for the win, behind Quintana

Pre-race, yes, Landa was no bigger favourite than Purito back then, like you said. But at the time of withdrawal, he was the favourite, after putting in the time trials of his life. When Purito crashed out, his odds were still a fair bit longer than Quintana's

 

[The Principal Sheep]

Re:

Landa was not the favourite for the Giro before it started. He became the favourite after the ITT. Then he withdrew. SK was a huge favourite before he crashed.

It doesn't happen often that the two most likely riders to win a GT, at different points in time, both suffer misfortune. In fact, only one other occasion comes readily to mind. The Tour 2014.

I thought Nibali was the favourite for the Giro and it turned out to be correct too.

 

[El Pistolero]

I can think of many races where a lot of the top favorites dropped out or couldn't even get to the start line.

Tour de France 2006: Ivan Basso and Jan Ullrich get caught up in Operacion Puerto and were banned. Valverde crashes out.

Tour de France 2008: defending champion Alberto Contador is not invited, just like third place finisher Levi Leipheimer. Michael Rasmussen was banned. So that's the top 3 of 2007 that couldn't contest for the win in 2008. Who won the Tour that year? The guy who finished fourth in 2007.

Tour de France 2012: Alberto Contador is banned, Andy Schleck crashed in the Dauphiné and couldn't start the Tour that year. Wiggo's strongest rival was his own team-mate, who was kept on a leash. It was also a Tour with many time trials and barely any decent mountain stages. This has got to be one of the most luckiest Tour wins ever.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Re:

I can think of many races where a lot of the top favorites dropped out or couldn't even get to the start line.

Tour de France 2006: Ivan Basso and Jan Ullrich get caught up in Operacion Puerto and were banned. Valverde crashes out.

Tour de France 2008: defending champion Alberto Contador is not invited, just like third place finisher Levi Leipheimer. Michael Rasmussen was banned. So that's the top 3 of 2007 that couldn't contest for the win in 2008. Who won the Tour that year? The guy who finished fourth in 2007.

Tour de France 2012: Alberto Contador is banned, Andy Schleck crashed in the Dauphiné and couldn't start the Tour that year. Wiggo's strongest rival was his own team-mate, who was kept on a leash. It was also a Tour with many time trials and barely any decent mountain stages. This has got to be one of the most luckiest Tour wins ever.

2007 TDF also with Rasmussen being thrown out when in yellow and to a lesser extent Astana being thrown out (combination of individual riders positives and team decision; I'm still a little bitter that Kloden couldn't finish top 5 and maybe even podium )

I don't think that there have been two examples quite like Nibali's recent two GT victories though, once the race has started. For sure Ullrich and Basso (plus maybe Mancebo and Vino) were the big favourites in '06, but this was pre-race. After a couple of stages of the '14 Tour the clear favourites were Froome and Contador. And whilst Nibali started the '16 Giro as the favourite, this was only marginally over Landa, who became the favourite due to losing next to no time to Nibali in the ITT's, where he was expected to lose the race overall (not due to food poisoning). Kruiswick had proven to be stronger in the dolomites to Nibali, and with an almost five minute lead with just two decisive stages to go, was naturally the red hot favourite for victory. Someone like Wiggins may well have been lucky in the overall scheme of things, but his TDF victory was almost in less doubt during the race as compared to any other GT winner. After the Fillies climb and the first long ITT, it was pretty much over.

 

[El Pistolero]

Re: Re:

I can think of many races where a lot of the top favorites dropped out or couldn't even get to the start line.

Tour de France 2006: Ivan Basso and Jan Ullrich get caught up in Operacion Puerto and were banned. Valverde crashes out.

Tour de France 2008: defending champion Alberto Contador is not invited, just like third place finisher Levi Leipheimer. Michael Rasmussen was banned. So that's the top 3 of 2007 that couldn't contest for the win in 2008. Who won the Tour that year? The guy who finished fourth in 2007.

Tour de France 2012: Alberto Contador is banned, Andy Schleck crashed in the Dauphiné and couldn't start the Tour that year. Wiggo's strongest rival was his own team-mate, who was kept on a leash. It was also a Tour with many time trials and barely any decent mountain stages. This has got to be one of the most luckiest Tour wins ever.

2007 TDF also with Rasmussen being thrown out when in yellow and to a lesser extent Astana being thrown out (combination of individual riders positives and team decision; I'm still a little bitter that Kloden couldn't finish top 5 and maybe even podium )

I don't think that there have been two examples quite like Nibali's recent two GT victories though, once the race has started. For sure Ullrich and Basso (plus maybe Mancebo and Vino) were the big favourites in '06, but this was pre-race. After a couple of stages of the '14 Tour the clear favourites were Froome and Contador. And whilst Nibali started the '16 Giro as the favourite, this was only marginally over Landa, who became the favourite due to losing next to no time to Nibali in the ITT's, where he was expected to lose the race overall (not due to food poisoning). Kruiswick had proven to be stronger in the dolomites to Nibali, and with an almost five minute lead with just two decisive stages to go, was naturally the red hot favourite for victory. Someone like Wiggins may well have been lucky in the overall scheme of things, but his TDF victory was almost in less doubt during the race as compared to any other GT winner. After the Fillies climb and the first long ITT, it was pretty much over.

Nibali already had a lead of 2 minutes and 30 seconds on Contador before he crashed out, and he also won a stage already when both Froome and Contador were still there. Even if Froome didn't crash on the cobbles stage, he'd have lost a lot of time there. I don't think Froome ever stood a chance in 2014, Contador maybe...

 

[gregrowlerson]

Re: Re:

I can think of many races where a lot of the top favorites dropped out or couldn't even get to the start line.

Tour de France 2006: Ivan Basso and Jan Ullrich get caught up in Operacion Puerto and were banned. Valverde crashes out.

Tour de France 2008: defending champion Alberto Contador is not invited, just like third place finisher Levi Leipheimer. Michael Rasmussen was banned. So that's the top 3 of 2007 that couldn't contest for the win in 2008. Who won the Tour that year? The guy who finished fourth in 2007.

Tour de France 2012: Alberto Contador is banned, Andy Schleck crashed in the Dauphiné and couldn't start the Tour that year. Wiggo's strongest rival was his own team-mate, who was kept on a leash. It was also a Tour with many time trials and barely any decent mountain stages. This has got to be one of the most luckiest Tour wins ever.

2007 TDF also with Rasmussen being thrown out when in yellow and to a lesser extent Astana being thrown out (combination of individual riders positives and team decision; I'm still a little bitter that Kloden couldn't finish top 5 and maybe even podium )

I don't think that there have been two examples quite like Nibali's recent two GT victories though, once the race has started. For sure Ullrich and Basso (plus maybe Mancebo and Vino) were the big favourites in '06, but this was pre-race. After a couple of stages of the '14 Tour the clear favourites were Froome and Contador. And whilst Nibali started the '16 Giro as the favourite, this was only marginally over Landa, who became the favourite due to losing next to no time to Nibali in the ITT's, where he was expected to lose the race overall (not due to food poisoning). Kruiswick had proven to be stronger in the dolomites to Nibali, and with an almost five minute lead with just two decisive stages to go, was naturally the red hot favourite for victory. Someone like Wiggins may well have been lucky in the overall scheme of things, but his TDF victory was almost in less doubt during the race as compared to any other GT winner. After the Fillies climb and the first long ITT, it was pretty much over.

Nibali already had a lead of 2 minutes and 30 seconds on Contador before he crashed out, and he also won a stage already when both Froome and Contador were still there. Even if Froome didn't crash on the cobbles stage, he'd have lost a lot of time there. I don't think Froome ever stood a chance in 2014, Contador maybe...

Fair point. I just meant that there were points during the actual race where Nibali was clearly the underdog.

I'm with you on the point about Nibali's TDF victory being under rated. His form was incredible in the mountains. We don't really know about Froome, but Contador showed on stage 8 that he had decent (some will claim monster ) form. It's really hard to tell if Froome and/or Contador would have taken 30-60 seconds out of Nibali on all the MTF's, or if they would have been struggling just to stay on his wheel. I am not sure what the odds were after stage 8, but I would guess that Nibali would have been a slight favourite at that point over Contador. Or at least his subsequent climbing form showed that he should have been considered as such.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Re: Re:

On another subject, what are the chances of Aru, Froome, Quintana and Contador all suffering some sort of misfortune at the Tour this year, while Nibali feels another nibble and senses that he can haul in yet another big fish?

Or has he used up all of his 2016 voodoo at the Giro?

If he is somehow in the GC mix well into week three then this forum will be an interesting place to be around!