Teams & Riders Vincenzo Nibali discussion thread

[Billie]

Nibali looks really strong.

Broke the chasing group everytime he pulled. Only three, four riders could stay in his wheel

 

[May0maniac]

Re: Re:

I felt Nibali panicked a bit and did not use his head, trying to pull the 2nd group on his own, his group should have waited for the Movistar group earlier and combined forces

Adrenalin surged as he watched his two big rivals ride away! I can't see that he gained anything from the 2nd group joining though, they just lost more time. Big Astana Fail, especially Birdsong

I really dislike Birdsong, but he crashed yesterday so I can understand the he wasn't a great help.
The rest of the team...

 

[SeriousSam]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

Don't panic, lo squalo è tranquillo...

Doesn't change the fact that today was a very bad day for him and made his chances to win the Tour appreciably worse.

 

[Jagartrott]

Re:

I have my doubts about tuesday's stage.It will be dry.So the last years' gaps might be just a dream for him

Erm, they actually predict some showers Tuesday.

 

[Carols]

Re: Re:

I felt Nibali panicked a bit and did not use his head, trying to pull the 2nd group on his own, his group should have waited for the Movistar group earlier and combined forces

Adrenalin surged as he watched his two big rivals ride away! I can't see that he gained anything from the 2nd group joining though, they just lost more time. Big Astana Fail, especially Birdsong

I really dislike Birdsong, but he crashed yesterday so I can understand the he wasn't a great help.
The rest of the team...

Ah I didn't realize Birdsong had injured wings, he's off the hook. But there were 7 other guys MIA!!!

 

[Metabolol]

Astana and Movistar were really disorganized in their chase. It's certainly not over yet but he can't afford to lose much more time. I doubt he will be able to drop everyone in the mountains so the cobble stage will be very important for him.

 

[Kwibus]

Re: Re:

I felt Nibali panicked a bit and did not use his head, trying to pull the 2nd group on his own, his group should have waited for the Movistar group earlier and combined forces

Adrenalin surged as he watched his two big rivals ride away! I can't see that he gained anything from the 2nd group joining though, they just lost more time. Big Astana Fail, especially Birdsong

Tbh Fuglsang was there. Where were. Boom and Westra? Imo riders that should show themselves during these conditions.

 

[rm7]

Fuglsang was the only Astana rider with Nibali in the front group after the first split, and also after the second split where he got dropped from the Cotador/Froome group.. He was a great help today.

 

[el_angliru]

I can't see that he gained anything from the 2nd group joining though, they just lost more time. Big Astana Fail, especially Birdsong

It was an impossible task for Nibali when he was in the 2nd group between the Contador/Froome group and the Quintana/Pinot group. Nibal only had Fuglsang of his teammates, and none of the other guys in Nibali's group (incl. the yellow jersey) wanted to pull - either because they had their leaders up front, or because the had their leaders further back. So Nibali and Fuglsang had to close the gap to the leading group by themselves (more or less). Not easy when BMC, Sky, Tinkoff and Etixx Quick Step all had 4 or even 5 riders in the front group - plus some teams like Lotto doing a lot of work! Nibs and Birdsong were up against Tony Martin, Kwiatkowski, Dumoulin, Sagan, Oss, Teejay, Avermaet, Froome, Contador, G Thomas, Rogers, Oss, Stybar, Cancellara, etc.

I agree that Nibali apparently didn't gain anything by falling back, but it's not very likely that he could have stayed in between the groups for 50 km. I assume he would have been caught by the Quintana group anyway (rather than closing the gap to the front group). And I actually think Fuglsang did OK from what I saw. He was there, in spite of having hurt his knee in yesterday's crash.

 

[cineteq]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

Don't panic, lo squalo è tranquillo...

Doesn't change the fact that today was a very bad day for him and made his chances to win the Tour appreciably worse.

There many ways to gain time for him, plus there is the TTT. Plenty of time for the best GC rider in the world to win the Tour.

 

[Rollthedice]

Re: Re:

I felt Nibali panicked a bit and did not use his head, trying to pull the 2nd group on his own, his group should have waited for the Movistar group earlier and combined forces

Adrenalin surged as he watched his two big rivals ride away! I can't see that he gained anything from the 2nd group joining though, they just lost more time. Big Astana Fail, especially Birdsong

Tbh Fuglsang was there. Where were. Boom and Westra? Imo riders that should show themselves during these conditions.

Boom: "There was a crash in front of us in Rotterdam and that was it - four of us were behind and we never saw the front of the race again"

 

[Carols]

Re:

I can't see that he gained anything from the 2nd group joining though, they just lost more time. Big Astana Fail, especially Birdsong

It was an impossible task for Nibali when he was in the 2nd group between the Contador/Froome group and the Quintana/Pinot group. Nibal only had Fuglsang of his teammates, and none of the other guys in Nibali's group (incl. the yellow jersey) wanted to pull - either because they had their leaders up front, or because the had their leaders further back. So Nibali and Fuglsang had to close the gap to the leading group by themselves (more or less). Not easy when BMC, Sky, Tinkoff and Etixx Quick Step all had 4 or even 5 riders in the front group - plus some teams like Lotto doing a lot of work! Nibs and Birdsong were up against Tony Martin, Kwiatkowski, Dumoulin, Sagan, Oss, Teejay, Avermaet, Froome, Contador, G Thomas, Rogers, Oss, Stybar, Cancellara, etc.

I agree that Nibali apparently didn't gain anything by falling back, but it's not very likely that he could have stayed in between the groups for 50 km. I assume he would have been caught by the Quintana group anyway (rather than closing the gap to the front group). And I actually think Fuglsang did OK from what I saw. He was there, in spite of having hurt his knee in yesterday's crash.

Well BMC and Sky did No Work until Very late. Fabu just road the gravy train all the way, not that I blame him. It was all Etixx, Tinkoff and Lotto doing the work like trojans from what I saw. But even the best of Movistar and Astana were no match against them and the gap just widened. Those were 3 teams on a mission and aside from Etixx all came away winners. BMC and Sky made great gains for little effort IMO.

I apologized previously to Birdsong as I didn't realize he had clipped wings. But where were Boom and Westra, et al???

Oh well, it happened, and hopefully Nibali can recover the time. He's a fighter, he won't just roll over and give up .

 

[Carols]

Re: Re:

I felt Nibali panicked a bit and did not use his head, trying to pull the 2nd group on his own, his group should have waited for the Movistar group earlier and combined forces

Adrenalin surged as he watched his two big rivals ride away! I can't see that he gained anything from the 2nd group joining though, they just lost more time. Big Astana Fail, especially Birdsong

Tbh Fuglsang was there. Where were. Boom and Westra? Imo riders that should show themselves during these conditions.

Boom: "There was a crash in front of us in Rotterdam and that was it - four of us were behind and we never saw the front of the race again"

Well that explains that. It was total chaos out there!

 

[Tonton]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

I agree with SeriousSam: his chances of winning the Tour took a bit hit. Remember the pre-race talks? The first week was to be Nibbles'. Big setback today. Not over yet, but he's the biggest loser in today's stage, and it is imperative that he makes not just one, but two big moves before the TTT.

 

[SafeBet]

Half Astana was caught behind in the Kelderman crash.
Then Nibbles was held back when Hansen crashed. Bad luck but Tour is still winnable. Last year he was the luckiest among the favorites, now he gotta live with not being the one.

 

[Dedelou]

Re: Nibali discussion thread

I agree with SeriousSam: his chances of winning the Tour took a bit hit. Remember the pre-race talks? The first week was to be Nibbles'. Big setback today. Not over yet, but he's the biggest loser in today's stage, and it is imperative that he makes not just one, but two big moves before the TTT.

Nibali was lucky in today's misfortune that Froome's Sky and TJVG's BMC were more scared of Contador than they are of Lo Squallo. If these teams worked with Lotto and Saxo, the second group take 2 or 3 minutes in their bag.

 

[ad9898]

Nibali should think himself lucky he only lost 1.28 today, the drafting when he punctured was a joke. All things being fair he should've been fined and docked a minute, even that wouldn't have been too bad as without the clear cheating he'd have lost a lot more.

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

Nibali should think himself lucky he only lost 1.28 today, the drafting when he punctured was a joke. All things being fair he should've been fined and docked a minute, even that wouldn't have been too bad as without the clear cheating he'd have lost a lot more.

Race referees don't seem to care about the drafting now. Many riders get away with overdoing it. You even see it in the ITT when one rider catches another. I have seen some bad examples. It seems that illegal wheel changes are considered to be really really bad but continuous drafting is okay.

What a difference a day makes. Awful day for Nibali and Quintana. But just as bad for Cavendish and Martin who should have had the stage and yellow but completely muffed the sprint. Nibali and Quintana have to hope for others to have some bad luck now. TJVG was also a good ride and is in a good position on GC as is Uran. I think the cobbled stage could be just as chaotic, worse if the weather is bad. I hope the big four come through the first nine days still in contention otherwise we are in for another boring match race.

I think this is one year where the TTT is going to be critical, usually it isn't.

 

[sunnyIce]

Nibs and Astana were completely outraced for the 40 Kms even before the puncture. And, lets not even talk about Quintana and Movistar; they just seem really clueless.

At abt 65 Kms, the first crash happened w/ Kelderman. There was a small split (~ 15 seconds), but Nibs was on the right peloton at that time. But I think 3 of Astana were caught in the second peloton 15 secs back. Not sure why they didnt make more of an effort to catch up with nibs. Made absolutely no ground/attempt for the next 20 Kms; even when a good bit of that stretch went into tree roads and towns and away from the wind.

At 45 Kms, the second crash (?) happened, and nibs was caught just a lil bit but nothing too serious. They were still together with Sky, TS all three stretched a bit but still together. Then Lotto started putting the hurt and the group stretched a bit more. Somebody from Sky pulled and caught them up with the lead (Lotto, BMC, Etixx). TS was barely holding on, and Sagan put in what seemed like a monster effort to pull all 4 from TS to the front group. He was pulling like a mad man for 2 mins!! And when the rubber band snapped, TS had made it and Nibs was just watching them ride away.

At 25 Kms, Nibs had the puncture, and lost any hope of catching up with the front. In any case, they were outraced far before that.

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Re:

Nibali should think himself lucky he only lost 1.28 today, the drafting when he punctured was a joke. All things being fair he should've been fined and docked a minute, even that wouldn't have been too bad as without the clear cheating he'd have lost a lot more.

Race referees don't seem to care about the drafting now. Many riders get away with overdoing it. You even see it in the ITT when one rider catches another. I have seen some bad examples. It seems that illegal wheel changes are considered to be really really bad but continuous drafting is okay.

What a difference a day makes. Awful day for Nibali and Quintana. But just as bad for Cavendish and Martin who should have had the stage and yellow but completely muffed the sprint. Nibali and Quintana have to hope for others to have some bad luck now. TJVG was also a good ride and is in a good position on GC as is Uran. I think the cobbled stage could be just as chaotic, worse if the weather is bad. I hope the big four come through the first nine days still in contention otherwise we are in for another boring match race.

I think this is one year where the TTT is going to be critical, usually it isn't.

Well, they do care, but not in certain situations.

In a critical moment when a rider is already in bad sorts, if he punctures, has a mechanical, or crashes then the jury won't apply the no drafting rule to get back to his already disadvantages position, nor has it been any other way in the past.

An entirely different story, by contrast, would the situation have been had Nibali drafted to catch back up to Contador, Froome et al. Then he would have been justly penalized.

If this seems unfair to some, then they haven't watched cycling long enough. It has always been the case to turn a blind eye in situations like the one in which Nibali found himself yesterday. At least in Europe, where a bit flexibility and a piety have usually been the measure against which a sanction is applied or not in these situations. There is thus no call to be scandalized (not saying you are, of course, but to those that are).

I remember back in the 80's when sometimes a TV helicopter or motorcycle would position itself near to the national rider of choice in a TT or break to, em, em, get a "better angle." Fignon accused Moser of winning the Giro that way.

 

[hrotha]

It's perfectly fine to not like those shenanigans, no matter how ingrained they are. Having watched cycling long enough just means you know it's the way it is, not that you must agree it's OK.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

Nibali should think himself lucky he only lost 1.28 today, the drafting when he punctured was a joke. All things being fair he should've been fined and docked a minute, even that wouldn't have been too bad as without the clear cheating he'd have lost a lot more.

All things being fair he never gets the puncture in the first place and isn't forced to waste energy chasing back on through the cars.

 

[Carstenbf]

Re:

Nibali should think himself lucky he only lost 1.28 today, the drafting when he punctured was a joke. All things being fair he should've been fined and docked a minute, even that wouldn't have been too bad as without the clear cheating he'd have lost a lot more.

Ffs, every year this whining. This the first race you guys watched? He was in the motorcade. It's completely normal and happens all the time when riders puncture and are able to swap wheels quickly. The teams help riders like this across team boundaries, and have for years and years.

Completely different story had he fallen through the motorcade ofc, but I guess such subtleties are quickly lost in July.

 

[FCKAC]

Re: Re:

Goodbye Tour De France? I say yes unless he can get back the time on the cobbles.

Nah, AC will fade. So only Froom is the biggest winner. Astana can pull back some time in TTT and possibly on cobble. But today, Astana team wise, the performance is horrible. I will reserve my judgement after the cobble and TTT.

Like I said, AC won't be a factor in this Tour. Nibali really has to think how to derail Froom.

 

[SafeBet]

Re: Re:

Goodbye Tour De France? I say yes unless he can get back the time on the cobbles.

Nah, AC will fade. So only Froom is the biggest winner. Astana can pull back some time in TTT and possibly on cobble. But today, Astana team wise, the performance is horrible. I will reserve my judgement after the cobble and TTT.

Like I said, AC won't be a factor in this Tour. Nibali really has to think how to derail Froom.

Tomorrow it's his best chance, together with the Pra Loup stage. Astana must go all in on the cobbles.