Teams & Riders Vincenzo Nibali discussion thread

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

So Nibbes has one monument win and know he's the greatest. So is one monument worth 4 gt's in your opinion?

This is where it gets interesting, because it comes down to discussion. Like with Valverde Vs. Boonen. That one Vuelta doesn't put him above Boonen for me, he'd need probably another two Vueltas or a Giro or Tour in terms of GTs. If he won the WCRR or LBL then it gets very close, he'd probably just nick it but that depends on if Boonen can fire in the cobbled classics one last time. Kelly is better than both.

There are two active GT riders who have won all three GTs which puts them head and shoulders above the rest. Only 6 people in the entire history of racing have managed that. Not Coppi, Indurain, Bobet, Bartali, Gimondi, Pantani, Fignon etc. Some of the greatest GT riders to ever throw a leg over the bike.

As far as I'm concerned, what makes a better GT rider, in my opinion, is one who can put himself on possibly the most elite list in cycling and go out and win monuments. That's my opinion, people can disagree as much as they want but they won't change it.

I think you need to clarify more what you are saying.

Judging GT riders based on there performances in monuments is crazy. It would be like judging PR riders based on how they go in the king of the mountain tour.

So if you are asking who is the best GT rider in GT, you should only consider GT results. In this case contador is the best.

However if you are asking who is overall the best rider out of GT contenders then you can include monuments and other races. In which case nibali is the best.


The second is what I know you mean but they way some of your posts read is that because nibali has won a monument he should be the top favourite for any GT.

Hi. I have pointed out several times that I am grouping him with other GT riders because that is who you would naturally compare him to. I have also pointed out that I am judging him on his whole palmares compared to others whole palmares, that is what matters to me. I have not in any way said Nibali should be top favourite in ANY race, if that's what you read into my posts then I'm sorry.


As a more general point I'll refer to Rollthedice:

You argued about King Boonen's opinions which he repeatedly said that they are, obviously, his own. He explained what the criteria is on which he bases his opinion in ranking riders. Then some trols jumped in and everything went downhill with Contador magically appearing again in a discussion about Nibali.

It seems that at times you can't be a fan of another GT rider on this forum unless you couch everything in "but so and so is better at this and that" kind of language. Well no. This is the Nibali thread and yet every time someone wants to say how much they enjoy his riding, like it when he wins etc. someone has to come in and bring up Mr. Boring. I don't agree with them. I don't think Mr. Boring is half the rider Nibali is and I see Nibali as a true cyclist who can challenge on everything but a pan flat course and even then I wouldn't put it past him. Guys like Valverde come close, but as far as I am concerned Nibali is the greatest GT rider of this generation and I sincerely hope he bags another couple of Monuments and a RRWC rainbow jersey to cement that.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

I agree with him. For a cyclist that already won all GTs, winning a monument is much more impressive than continue amassing Giros and Vueltas.
So Nibali might not be the best rider purely in GTs, but if Boonen classifies him as a GT rider, then he is the best among cyclists classified as GT riders (if you can follow that logic).
I think it is between him and Valverde as best cyclist of this generation, but since Valverde is stained by a clinic ban, I think the title goes to Nibali. If only one of them could win a WC, that would pretty much settle the discussion

Basically 100% agree with this.

Valverde and Nibali are a more interesting comparison than comparing either to Contador. Nibali has 3 GT's and a Monument, Valverde has three Monuments and a GT. Nibali has won all three GT's though each only once, and Valverde only one Monument, but three times. Nibali has no sprint, and relies on aggressive tactics more than opportunity really presents, while Valverde is a fantastic finisher, who settles for the podium perhaps when he shouldn't. Nibali outperforms himself, Valverde everyone else.

For me Nibali gets it purely by having all three GTs and now a monument but it's extremely close and ask me on another day and I might swing in Valverdes direction!

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

froomie&quintana cannot be mentioned in the same breath as Nibali&Contador ...from whatever perspective you look at it (gts, better rider, even entertainment!!...)

Completely agree with this ^^
no contest!

Agreed. It will change though once Froome win his 3rd Tour

Not for me. Specialisation has ruined racing and Froome needs something else on his palmares for me to even consider him alongside Nibali and the other greats.

 

[bassano]

Re: Re:

froomie&quintana cannot be mentioned in the same breath as Nibali&Contador ...from whatever perspective you look at it (gts, better rider, even entertainment!!...)

Completely agree with this ^^
no contest!

Agreed. It will change though once Froome win his 3rd Tour

Not for me. Specialisation has ruined racing and Froome needs something else on his palmares for me to even consider him alongside Nibali and the other greats.

Exactly, froome proved that when he focus on Tour de France he is able to do really good performance, nobody will take it from him, but to became better cyclist in my eyes, he need to do more then just Tour de France and 2nd tier stuff like one week stage races
another Tour de France will not be better then last one he won

 

[hrotha]

It's not like Froome hasn't tried to win the Vuelta. Repeatedly.

 

[bassano]

Re:

It's not like Froome hasn't tried to win the Vuelta. Repeatedly.

of course but usually after Tour when he was tired or after Injury
he need to challenge giro or some monument like LBL or Lombardia where he have some chance

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

I agree with him. For a cyclist that already won all GTs, winning a monument is much more impressive than continue amassing Giros and Vueltas.
So Nibali might not be the best rider purely in GTs, but if Boonen classifies him as a GT rider, then he is the best among cyclists classified as GT riders (if you can follow that logic).
I think it is between him and Valverde as best cyclist of this generation, but since Valverde is stained by a clinic ban, I think the title goes to Nibali. If only one of them could win a WC, that would pretty much settle the discussion

Basically 100% agree with this.

Valverde and Nibali are a more interesting comparison than comparing either to Contador. Nibali has 3 GT's and a Monument, Valverde has three Monuments and a GT. Nibali has won all three GT's though each only once, and Valverde only one Monument, but three times. Nibali has no sprint, and relies on aggressive tactics more than opportunity really presents, while Valverde is a fantastic finisher, who settles for the podium perhaps when he shouldn't. Nibali outperforms himself, Valverde everyone else.

For me Nibali gets it purely by having all three GTs and now a monument but it's extremely close and ask me on another day and I might swing in Valverdes direction!

For me, Valverde is ahead, he's more complete and producing all-year long which is his biggest quality. There was no rider like that since Kelly, and in these days of specialization, that feat is much harder. Nibali is great though, and he stands just one step below my big 4 of current peloton: Contador, Cancellara, Boonen, Valverde

 

[Oliver]

Amazing win in Il lombardia!

 

[TI-Raleigh]

Please Vincenzo, ride the TdF to win. You already have a Giro in the bag, don't make your goal to win a lesser GT when you are still in your prime.

 

[Brullnux]

Re:

Please Vincenzo, ride the TdF to win. You already have a Giro in the bag, don't make your goal to bag a lesser GT when you are still in your prime.

You do realise he has won a tour already right?

Besides, Giro+Rio+Vuelta would be a great season. Couple that with an attacking effort hopefully with result in Ardennes especially LBL and Milano Sanremo; a top 3 at Tirreno, a win at the Giro del Trentino, Italian nationals for 3rd year running and you have yourself Nibali's best ever season. Tour can wait until 2017.

 

[portugal11]

Re:

Please Vincenzo, ride the TdF to win. You already have a Giro in the bag, don't make your goal to bag a lesser GT when you are still in your prime.

he fears contador and froome, he doesn't want a second humiliation in le tour

 

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

Please Vincenzo, ride the TdF to win. You already have a Giro in the bag, don't make your goal to bag a lesser GT when you are still in your prime.

he fears contador and froome, he doesn't want a second humiliation in le tour

Nibbes doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who gets "humiliated" and runs because of a lost.
Most likely he's doing the Giro because he's Italian, the Tour doesn't mean everything to some cyclist (they appreciate other races), his team wants to give Aru a chance at the Tour.

 

[sir fly]

Re: Re:

Please Vincenzo, ride the TdF to win. You already have a Giro in the bag, don't make your goal to bag a lesser GT when you are still in your prime.

he fears contador and froome, he doesn't want a second humiliation in le tour

Nibbes doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who gets "humiliated" and runs because of a lost.
Most likely he's doing the Giro because he's Italian, the Tour doesn't mean everything to some cyclist (they appreciate other races), his team wants to give Aru a chance at the Tour.

Aru hasn't heard a word about it.
Seems to me it's something journalists wanted to construct out of Nibali's interview.
Aru being Astana's Tour leader is still unimaginable to me.

 

[portugal11]

Re: Re:

Please Vincenzo, ride the TdF to win. You already have a Giro in the bag, don't make your goal to bag a lesser GT when you are still in your prime.

he fears contador and froome, he doesn't want a second humiliation in le tour

Nibbes doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who gets "humiliated" and runs because of a lost.
Most likely he's doing the Giro because he's Italian, the Tour doesn't mean everything to some cyclist (they appreciate other races), his team wants to give Aru a chance at the Tour.

a big lol for your comment... he said the same thing last year but when contador said that he will do il giro, nibali escaped for le tour... and he was humiliated...

 

[TI-Raleigh]

Re: Re:

Please Vincenzo, ride the TdF to win. You already have a Giro in the bag, don't make your goal to bag a lesser GT when you are still in your prime.

You do realise he has won a tour already right?

Besides, Giro+Rio+Vuelta would be a great season. Couple that with an attacking effort hopefully with result in Ardennes especially LBL and Milano Sanremo; a top 3 at Tirreno, a win at the Giro del Trentino, Italian nationals for 3rd year running and you have yourself Nibali's best ever season. Tour can wait until 2017.

It's very easy to sit behind a computer and tabulate a fantasy season for Nibali. Unfortunately, the odds he would ever win Giro+Rio+Vuelta+Trentino+Nationals, while placing top 3 in Tirreno and get "results" in the Ardennes + MSR, well it seems very unlikely. I agree, that would make for his best season ever...

However, a good result at the Tour against top level competition is more meaningful and is likely more attainable than the bucket list of races you named. Let's be realistic; to do all those things Nibali would have to be in incredible shape from March to the end of September. Who do you think he is, Valverde???

Reasonably, we could expect a top level Nibali to contend for the overall at stage races, liven up the spring classics, and be a serious threat in July against the very best. Not saying that he will beat Froome, Contador, or Quintana; but he has shown his ability to climb with the same numbers that they have climbed at.

Who (besides some old-school Italian cycling fans) really cares if Nibali tries to beat up on second-tier GT riders in May? Wouldn't it do more for his legacy to try and win the most prestigious of races in July?

 

[Brullnux]

2013: Wins Tirreno, Trentino, Giro, 2nd Vuelta and 4th WCs. March-May and July-September
2012: 4th Luis, 2nd Oman, 1st Tirreno, 3rd MSR, 2nd LBL, 3rd tour, 1st Padania (crap race but still), accidentally leads out Gilbert to victory in WCRR. Feb-September, almost all in good form. Small blip in May, early June

Nibali has done it before.

 

[Mr.White]

Re:

2013: Wins Tirreno, Trentino, Giro, 2nd Vuelta and 4th WCs. March-May and July-September
2012: 4th Luis, 2nd Oman, 1st Tirreno, 3rd MSR, 2nd LBL, 3rd tour, 1st Padania (crap race but still), accidentally leads out Gilbert to victory in WCRR. Feb-September, almost all in good form. Small blip in May, early June

Nibali has done it before.

Leads out who?! Nibali was crap in that WC, he was a team leader and finished 29th, on a course that is not so bad for him. Wouldn't call that a good form. He's capable of achieving two peaks in one season though, like in those examples of you, but can't maintain high level throughout the whole season.

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

Please Vincenzo, ride the TdF to win. You already have a Giro in the bag, don't make your goal to bag a lesser GT when you are still in your prime.

he fears contador and froome, he doesn't want a second humiliation in le tour

I don't think he fears them. Remember the year Nibs won the tour Froome and Bertie both started.
He did not fear them this year.
It could be internal politics. Aru and his Astana machine would be a better bet for a tour win IMO.
They will be feared.

 

[Rollthedice]

Re: Re:

Please Vincenzo, ride the TdF to win. You already have a Giro in the bag, don't make your goal to bag a lesser GT when you are still in your prime.

he fears contador and froome, he doesn't want a second humiliation in le tour

I don't think he fears them. Remember the year Nibs won the tour Froome and Bertie both started.
He did not fear them this year.
It could be internal politics. Aru and his Astana machine would be a better bet for a tour win IMO.
They will be feared.

This fear stuff is a lot of crap, something made up by certain posters here. It doesn't even worth to respond to that but anyway. Aru is Vino's hot property right now and he has to show up at the Tour rather sooner than later. On the other hand Nibz really likes Il Giro, the parcours is great for him and it's a great opportunity to double the wins. I bet the organizers, his co-nationals I would add, are praying he will come since they will probably don't get another cycling great next year. He hinted at this possibility then maybe doing Le Tour helping Aru then the Olympics in Rio. This programme could also mean he will be much better in spring, I would be ecstatic if he could win another important classic maybe even LBL.

 

[Valv.Piti]

But there is some truth to the statement, not that I support that view of him fearing Contador, Froome and Quintana, but had he felt he was the favorite or even a close 2nd best, I bet he would go again since winning the Tour is the biggest achievement. Thats just how it is. And no matter what he says, I think it bothers him the way he won the Tour. I know, a Tour is a Tour, but many people will still hold a podium consisting of him, Peraud and Pinot against him. Rightfully so, somewhat.

 

[Rollthedice]

Re:

But there is some truth to the statement, not that I support that view of him fearing Contador, Froome and Quintana, but had he felt he was the favorite or even a close 2nd best, I bet he would go again since winning the Tour is the biggest achievement. Thats just how it is. And no matter what he says, I think it bothers him the way he won the Tour. I know, a Tour is a Tour, but many people will still hold a podium consisting of him, Peraud and Pinot against him. Rightfully so, somewhat.

I bet he will go again to win the Tour, no doubt. But maybe not this year and maybe not with Astana.

 

[SeriousSam]

If a rider believes he has a reasonable chance to win the Tour, he makes it his main target. It's as simple as that.

 

[Jspear]

Re:

If a rider believes he has a reasonable chance to win the Tour, he makes it his main target. It's as simple as that.

And what if a rider has done this, won the Tour and then decides to "target" something else. Can this not happen?

 

[46&twoWheels]

Re:

If a rider believes he has a reasonable chance to win the Tour, he makes it his main target. It's as simple as that.

if a rider believes he has a reasonable chance to win the Giro, he makes it his main target.
Trying to "over-infer" anything else from his decision is pure provocation

fact:He chose the Giro
non-fact: He refused to ride the Tour

the second is only a consequence,not a direct statement by Nibali



maybe he hates frenchies

 

[IndianCyclist]

With Quintana, Froome & Contador for the TDF makes Nibali the best for the Giro. It makes logical sense to choose something that suits him and that he can win. Besides could be better preparation for Rio than tiring in TDF