Vingegaard vs Pogačar - The Duel

[Krzysztof_O]

It feels like Vingegaard Visma were banking on this stage in their plans to crack Pogacar with the hard racing done in the crosswinds from Visma and yesterday’s stage. Stage 11 probably brought a lot of hope to them, then add in Almeida and Adam not looking good and dropping from Jorgenson’s pace today and they might have started believing even more that Pogacar will crack. Pogacar and UAE are just that much better this year, but from where Vingegaard is coming from that’s no slight as he’s doing crazy high numbers as well and without Pogacar would be first.

The main question is if Visma try again and risk being embarrassed or try again on stages 19 and 20.

Such a comeback from a big crash is very nice but Visma and Vingo didn't come here for the 2nd place. They will obviously attack (maybe even on Bonette) to get the yellow jersey and I don't think they give a s**t about being 2nd or 4th. Vingo showed ridiculous level yesterday so why wouldn't they try again? They need bad day by Pogacar but it's still possible.

 

[dercuforever]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1812930600514560474

View: https://x.com/NaichacaCycling/status/1812930600514560474?t=wZFT3i4FrcNRQprX53UzTQ&s=19

That attack was incredible.
Jorgensson' pace : relentless.
I can't imagine what went through Jonas head when he saw Pogacar still in the wheel, then attacking at 5 to go.
Watching it live I thought Vingegaard would last 2 or 3 k max at that speed. And I was expecting Pogacar to drop anytime.
A climb for History.

 

[CyclistAbi]

I’m glad they noticed him. They knew to stay on the other side of the road.

Yes, as said in other threads, that is really funny. Ha ha.

 

[Netserk]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1812930600514560474

View: https://x.com/NaichacaCycling/status/1812930600514560474?t=wZFT3i4FrcNRQprX53UzTQ&s=19

That attack was incredible.
Jorgensson' pace : relentless.
I can't imagine what went through Jonas head when he saw Pogacar still in the wheel, then attacking at 5 to go.
Watching it live I thought Vingegaard would last 2 or 3 k max at that speed. And I was expecting Pogacar to drop anytime.
A climb for History.

Vingegaard placerer sin og Pogacars præstation blandt de bedste nogensinde

Jonas Vingegaard og hans faste slovenske konkurrent leverede tider på søndagens afgørende stigning, der slog rekorder.

www.dr.dk

Er det her det højeste niveau, vi har set ved et Tour de France?
- Ja, det vil jeg faktisk næsten gå så langt at sige. De andre på holdet fortalte, at der er nogle, der har estimeret, hvor mange watt per kilo, vi har trådt, og det er – for at sige det ligeud – meget præcist, siger Jonas Vingegaard.
- Selvfølgelig ved jeg ikke, hvad de har kørt i gamle dage, men det er i hvert fald det bedste, jeg nogensinde har kørt. Når det er sådan, kan jeg ikke tillade mig at være skuffet over at blive slået af en, der var bedre, siger den dobbelte Tour-vinder.

Is this the highest level we've seen at a Tour de France?
- Yes, I would almost go so far as to say that. The others on the team told me that someone has estimated how many watts per kilo we pedalled, and that is - to put it bluntly - very accurate," says Jonas Vingegaard.
- "Of course, I don't know what they used to ride in the old days, but it's certainly the best I've ever ridden. When it's like that, I can't allow myself to be disappointed about being beaten by someone who was better," says the double Tour winner.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Vingegaard placerer sin og Pogacars præstation blandt de bedste nogensinde

Jonas Vingegaard og hans faste slovenske konkurrent leverede tider på søndagens afgørende stigning, der slog rekorder.

www.dr.dk

Are you finally aware how good Pogacar is or you still think Vingegaard is a lot better than Pogacar?

 

[pihi42]

I see this Evenepoel/Vingegaard/Pogačar situation as something like if you could put prime Indurain/Pantani/Merckx to race in the same Tour.

 

[Netserk]

Are you finally aware how good Pogacar is or you still think Vingegaard is a lot better than Pogacar?

If there's a post of mine you disagree with, you should quote it.

 

[BigCoward]

I believe Personal Yates was the original title of the Depeche Mode song, but it was changed before it was recorded.

'Take second best, put me to the test'
'You're all alone, flesh and bone'

It's clearly about Vingo.

 

[Gigs_98]

All this talk about their best ever numbers made me wonder on what pace Pogacar and Vingegaard were on Joux Plane last year. That seemed like the stage where they were most dominant compared to the rest of the field, but because they were almost doing track stands on the final third of the climb the times were pretty unimpressive. Would they have been in the same ballpark if the had continued at their faster pace or was Sunday much faster anyway?

 

[Miha81]

All this talk about their best ever numbers made me wonder on what pace Pogacar and Vingegaard were on Joux Plane last year. That seemed like the stage where they were most dominant compared to the rest of the field, but because they were almost doing track stands on the final third of the climb the times were pretty unimpressive. Would they have been in the same ballpark if the had continued at their faster pace or was Sunday much faster anyway?

Some calculations are in this article. They also address back and forth game in last 5min od the climb.

Pogačar and Vingegaard Fly up Joux Plane | Tour de France Stage 14 2023 - Lanterne Rouge

It was an extremely hard climbing day and Jumbo-Visma took advantage of the route and paced hard all day, never letting the breakaway get any advantage. Thomas Pidcock who was the 3rd fastest climber from the GC group on Puy de Dome and Galibier even got distanced on the Col de la Ramaz more...

lanternerouge.com

 

[Netserk]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1813197209476677666

View: https://x.com/StatsOnCycling/status/1813197209476677666

 

[Cookster15]

On stage 15 the Visma team car said to Vinge on the radio that Pogacar couldn't match the watts in the heat Vingegaard was doing on PdB - I think it was Plugge? It was very clear Visma targeted that stage and expected Pog to crack - like Granon 2022. But it is now very clear they underestimated Pogacar's level. Visma will never admit it but I'd say they were psychologically shell shocked at what happened on Plateau de Beille.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

On stage 15 the Visma team car said to Vinge on the radio that Pogacar couldn't match the watts in the heat Vingegaard was doing on PdB - I think it was Plugge? It was very clear Visma targeted that stage and expected Pog to crack - like Granon 2022. But it is now very clear they underestimated Pogacar's level. Visma will never admit it but I'd say they were psychologically shell shocked at what happened on Plateau de Beille.

By having Vingegaard confirming the estimated W/Kg, I think they are admitting their surprise that another guy could be even stronger.

 

[Fos]

All this talk about their best ever numbers made me wonder on what pace Pogacar and Vingegaard were on Joux Plane last year. That seemed like the stage where they were most dominant compared to the rest of the field, but because they were almost doing track stands on the final third of the climb the times were pretty unimpressive. Would they have been in the same ballpark if the had continued at their faster pace or was Sunday much faster anyway?

We don't usually see "best ever numbers" stuff because they almost never do a maximum effort climb from the bottom with perfect relays. In my opinion.

 

[Peyroteo94]

On stage 15 the Visma team car said to Vinge on the radio that Pogacar couldn't match the watts in the heat Vingegaard was doing on PdB - I think it was Plugge? It was very clear Visma targeted that stage and expected Pog to crack - like Granon 2022. But it is now very clear they underestimated Pogacar's level. Visma will never admit it but I'd say they were psychologically shell shocked at what happened on Plateau de Beille.

Where did you see this? Do you have a source?

 

[Cookster15]

Where did you see this? Do you have a source?

It was in the official tour highlights for stage 15 (at 4:06). I can’t copy the link. Whoever it was says “we believe he will have problems”🙂

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUfW1qJbOTc

 

[SHAD0W93]

It was in the official tour highlights for stage 15 (at 4:06). I can’t copy the link. Whoever it was says “we believe he will have problems”🙂

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUfW1qJbOTc

If only we could see the car after Pogacar attacked. [insert Dumoulin and WVA]

 

[Netserk]

It was in the official tour highlights for stage 15 (at 4:06). I can’t copy the link. Whoever it was says “we believe he will have problems”🙂

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUfW1qJbOTc

Grischa: "But of course still a hard fight to drop Pogačar, eh. We need a big pull of Matteo for the first 20 minutes, and then Jonas you just have to do your TT after that, and we believe he will get in problems, eh."

Cookster: Visma team car said to Vinge on the radio that Pogacar couldn't match the watts in the heat Vingegaard was doing on PdB.

I don't think you summed up the radio message very well. I also fail to see what the alternative should have been to such an encouragement before their attack on the climb.

 

[Cookster15]

Grischa: "But of course still a hard fight to drop Pogačar, eh. We need a big pull of Matteo for the first 20 minutes, and then Jonas you just have to do your TT after that, and we believe he will get in problems, eh."

Cookster: Visma team car said to Vinge on the radio that Pogacar couldn't match the watts in the heat Vingegaard was doing on PdB.

I don't think you summed up the radio message very well.

I recall all of that. But the line which grates is “believe he will get in problems, eh." - which is why I quoted that. But Visma are eating humble pie after PdB. Cycling isn’t 100% predicable. This attitude I grew to dislike when Sky perfected it in 2012.

 

[Netserk]

I recall all of that. But the line which grates is “believe he will get in problems, eh." - which is why I quoted that. But Visma are eating humble pie after PdB. Cycling isn’t 100% predicable. This attitude I grew to dislike when Sky perfected it in 2012.

It grates you that the DS says it will be hard to succeed, but they believe their plan will work? Should all encouragements end? Better tell him that they will give it a go, but to start off with, you shouldn't believe that you can succeed?

It's boilerplate encouragement to carry out their plan for the stage. If anything, it's quite modest this time: ~"It will be hard, but we believe it will work."

 

[Cookster15]

It grates you that the DS says it will be hard to succeed, but they believe their plan will work? Should all encouragements end? Better tell him that they will give it a go, but to start off with, you shouldn't believe that you can succeed?

It's boilerplate encouragement to carry out their plan for the stage. If anything, it's quite modest this time: ~"It will be hard, but we believe it will work."

I get all that. But Visma’s predictions about long hard climbs didn’t start this tour. They are repeating the lines from 2023. Like I said cycling isn’t 100% predictable. Vingegaard has been quite incredible after his hospitalisation and shortened preparations but showed some weakness today. And it also seems Pogacar and UAE have worked hard to better cope with hot days.

 

[Netserk]

I get all that. But Visma’s predictions about long hard climbs didn’t start this tour. They are repeating the lines from 2023. Like I said cycling isn’t 100% predictable. Vingegaard has been quite incredible after his hospitalisation and shortened preparations but showed some weakness today. And it also seems Pogacar and UAE have worked hard to better cope with hot days.

So what should he have said over the radio at that point to encourage his riders that wouldn't grate on you?

 

[Cookster15]

So what should he have said over the radio at that point to encourage his riders that wouldn't grate on you?

“We believe he will have problems” - like they have everything worked out. Just like Sky and Brailsford in the past. It comes across as arrogance.

I realise radio communications are in the heat of the battle but better to focus on your own performance and see what happens rather than predict what your competitor can or cannot do. Obviously they are trying to encourage their rider. But those words betrayed the attitude I’ve heard from Plugge for the last two years - like they know Pogacar’s limits. Anyway Pogacar didn’t have problems on PdB, it was their boy who did.

Vingegaard is still incredible all things considered. Visma might bounce back yet on stages 19 and 20. We will see.

 

[Cookster15]

Vingegaard is still incredible all things considered. Visma might bounce back yet on stages 19 and 20

Looking doubtful. But today I think Pogacar put the winner of the duel almost beyond doubt.

But since Vingegaard has an excuse this whets our appetites for a fair rematch in 2025.

 

[iBanesto]