Vingegaard vs Pogačar - The Duel

[Red Rick]

Nonsense. Adam Yates is largely a no show in this Tour, and Sivakov hasn't been of any help. With Almeida out, UAE depends on famous mountain goat Nils Politt, Wellens and Narvaez. Those guys are riding at a very high level, but this is very far from being the strongest UAE team in the Tour. Pogacar was isolated 2 days ago 70 km from the finish, and yesterday also on the final climb. It's just that Vingegaard and Visma never exploited the situation.

Ofcourse you get isolated at 70km when Visma launches it and Vingegaard attacks.

Both UAE and Visma have actually been less than impressive this Tour. In fact this goes for every GC team in the race. In that sense the race was pretty old school

 

[Valv.Piti]

The problem is they're polluting each other's race and the race of others.

Their teams chase everyone down in breakaways only to let others ride to victory on the final because of petty mutually destructive reasons (Visma did it when Jorgenson bizarrely attacked from the front group on stage 18 and UAE did it yesterday by letting Arensman win just to spite Vingegaard).

Yes, its pretty toxic, but this is bike racing for you when you don't like each other and don't want to to give the other guy an inch. This has happened a gazallion times throughout historoy, i.e. giving up a potential victory to make sure that your rival at least doesnt win.

 

[memyselfandI]

Nonsense. Adam Yates is largely a no show in this Tour, and Sivakov hasn't been of any help. With Almeida out, UAE depends on famous mountain goat Nils Politt, Wellens and Narvaez. Those guys are riding at a very high level, but this is very far from being the strongest UAE team in the Tour. Pogacar was isolated 2 days ago 70 km from the finish, and yesterday also on the final climb. It's just that Vingegaard and Visma never exploited the situation.

That isolation is dead word. First you attack, then you defense what do you have achieved. When Pogi wins and then UAE goes defense, there's nothing JV or VLAB can do. JV hasn't been able to attack the way that creates a sizeable gap, and after that team hasn't been able to defense in a way where everybody's just hanging at the back, drilling escapees duly back. The way UAE does when it needs to, when it wants to.

 

[skippo12]

Ofcourse you get isolated at 70km when Visma launches it and Vingegaard attacks.

Both UAE and Visma have actually been less than impressive this Tour. In fact this goes for every GC team in the race. In that sense the race was pretty old school

Ironically less dominance resulted in a more Skytrain-like approach. Control and fake pace instead of trying to blow the race apart.

 

[memyselfandI]

I think UAE chose the risk free racing this time, the USPS/Sky style racing and told Pogi to avoid impulsive entertaining racing. It works but looks dull, kills entertainment and gives about zero room to close competitors unless they have brute power to overcome. That they did not.

 

[Miha81]

I'm pretty certain a lot of riders throughout history (in fact all of them) who've been exhausted and suffered were all the more grateful to reach the finish line and win the Tour.

Take yesterday for example: technically it was a great day for Pog. He set a tempo that seemingly for xyz reasons nullified his closest rival on his wheel in the last HC col of the Tour. Great job... except the post-stage interviews and attitudes were miserable as hell. From both of them.

There's more to cycling than Hollywood attacks and showing off, i.e. if these two riders act miserable when they're not putting on a show then I think I might have a different conception of what this sport is supposed to be. It's hard. It's nasty. It's difficult. Everyone suffers.

Now if someone isn't suffering and he's just giggling like a child whilst strolling to victory... then such a rider would be pretty much unique in the history of the sport. The rest of the human race suffers out there.

I think it has a lot to do with their dissapointment for different reasons. Pog wanted to add additional stage wins in his palmares and was not able to, Vinge wanted to attack for GC win. They both failed and feel empty at the moment. My five cents.

Anyway this edition is big dissapointment for the fans. Expected great duel, got battle for the white jersey. Not to mention that stage design was mildly said underwhelmed and being backloaded TDF did not help either.

 

[Rule #9 apostle]

Both UAE and Visma have actually been less than impressive this Tour. In fact this goes for every GC team in the race. In that sense the race was pretty old school

I think that first week of pure classics racing must have been insanely intense. The whole peloton has been running on fumes for the last week.

Maybe with the exception of Arensman. He probably stayed out of that and now he is the only guy left standing

 

[Red Rick]

I doubt Vingegaard is actually that disappointed. He will have realized winning the stage was gonna be very difficult.

 

[Red Rick]

I think that first week of pure classics racing must have been insanely intense. The whole peloton has been running on fumes for the last week.

Maybe with the exception of Arensman. He probably stayed out of that and now he is the only guy left standing

First weeks were still mostly flat. Flat stages ain't gonna get harder than actual mountains no matter what.

Roglic' trainer said the Vuelta was the hardest GT he'd ever done last year in terms of consistent average W output, and it wasn't even full gas everyday, it was just the amount of altitude day in day out. That's something the Tour just doens't have that often.

I think it's just one of those Grand Tours where everyone gets a bit sick during the race because a peloton is nothing if not a great superspreader. Someone literally did the CFD simulations on that.

 

[Valv.Piti]

First weeks were still mostly flat. Flat stages ain't gonna get harder than actual mountains no matter what.

Roglic' trainer said the Vuelta was the hardest GT he'd ever done last year in terms of consistent average W output, and it wasn't even full gas everyday, it was just the amount of altitude day in day out. That's something the Tour just doens't have that often.

I think it's just one of those Grand Tours where everyone gets a bit sick during the race because a peloton is nothing if not a great superspreader. Someone literally did the CFD simulations on that.

There's no doubt in my mind that this years Tour has to have been considerably harder overall after stage 21. Most guys are running on fumes. Its literally full gas every apart from stage 3 and 8. Rest of the sprinter days were echelons, tailwind MVDP break and stage 17 Jonas Abrahamsen shenanigans. Transitation stages very hard, long time for break to go. Puncheur finishes very hard and hectic the last 30-60 min. Mountain stages as usual

Reminds me of 2022 in a sense, even though 2022 was a considerably better race. No off days really, and the speed is just different than the Vuelta.

 

[Jagartrott]

Ofcourse you get isolated at 70km when Visma launches it and Vingegaard attacks.

What do you mean 'of course'? Had UAE sent someone up the road, or if UAE had Almeida, Pogacar would not have been alone. He was, though, but Visma failed to really test him. There was a 20 km valley where being along would really have been a problem, but they rode up Madeleine the last 5 km paced by Jorgensen with the likes of Gall following with ease, and they rode down without any pressure put on Pogacar. You think that Nibali or Contador would've done it like this? No, they would've tried something. Uphill, downhill, in between. Vingegaard followed wheels.

 

[Red Rick]

What do you mean 'of course'? Had UAE sent someone up the road, or if UAE had Almeida, Pogacar would not have been alone. He was, though, but Visma failed to really test him. There was a 20 km valley where being along would really have been a problem, but they rode up Madeleine the last 5 km paced by Jorgensen with the likes of Gall following with ease, and they rode down without any pressure put on Pogacar. You think that Nibali or Contador would've done it like this? No, they would've tried something. Uphill, downhill, in between. Vingegaard followed wheels.

Those situations aren't that complicated, simply because Pogacar and Vingegaard are much stronger than their domestiques. Vingegaard wouldn't have been able to drop Pogacar without isolating himself, unless they gave the breakaway a stupid advantage before the Madeleine.

Which is also exactly why I pointed out during the Giro that EF and UAE giving Van Aert 10 minutes for free in the breakaway was a cataclysmic blunder before they even hit that climb.

 

[Salvarani]

I doubt Vingegaard is actually that disappointed. He will have realized winning the stage was gonna be very difficult.

Yeah, he seems perfectly happy. Been an awesome Tour for him.

 

[fenns]

Yeah, he seems perfectly happy. Been an awesome Tour for him.

well 2nd is better than 3rd, 3rd better then 4th, etc , etc.

 

[Salvarani]

well 2nd is better than 3rd, 3rd better then 4th, etc , etc.

Exactly, thats happiness.

 

[Rackham]

well 2nd is better than 3rd, 3rd better then 4th, etc , etc.

I still remember how happy Lance Armstrong looked when he finished third back in 2009.

Real portrait of happiness, bliss and content. At peace with the world, basically. Bertie and LA holding hands up the Ventoux singing Kumbaya.

 

[Gigs_98]

Ofcourse you get isolated at 70km when Visma launches it and Vingegaard attacks.

Both UAE and Visma have actually been less than impressive this Tour. In fact this goes for every GC team in the race. In that sense the race was pretty old school

Yeah it's funny that despite the outcome looking quite similar to last year the racing has been very different. It's neither been the utter domination of 2024, nor the controlled racing of the Sky era. We actually had lower half top 10 gc riders playing a big role for the race dynamics on a mtf. Feels like something we haven't seen in ages and something I definitely didn't expect in this era. I would say this was a pretty bad Tour but not actually for the reasons I expected.

 

[fenns]

Exactly, thats happiness.

I think it's contentment through cognitive dissonance rather than happiness. He realised after Hautacam the win was not on and had adjusted his expectations accordingly. He's perhaps learned from 24 when he was in tears.

 

[Red Rick]

Yeah it's funny that despite the outcome looking quite similar to last year the racing has been very different. It's neither been the utter domination of 2024, nor the controlled racing of the Sky era. We actually had lower half top 10 gc riders playing a big role for the race dynamics on a mtf. Feels like something we haven't seen in ages and something I definitely didn't expect in this era. I would say this was a pretty bad Tour but not actually for the reasons I expected.

I was thinking it was actually 2022 Giro but with Fedaia as first mountain stage.

 

[franic]

Yes, its pretty toxic, but this is bike racing for you when you don't like each other and don't want to to give the other guy an inch. This has happened a gazallion times throughout historoy, i.e. giving up a potential victory to make sure that your rival at least doesnt win.

At this point Vingegaard is a net negative for cycling.

1. He can’t beat Tadej. Pogi is likely very sick and Vingo can’t shake him even going full effort in the best shape of his life.
2. He’s an extremely boring rider. He’s too cautious when it matters. Sure he might attack in a flat stage where there’s no risk. But he never does anything daring when it matters. For instance, even in Ventoux and Madeleine he needs the confidence of having satellite riders to do anything.
3. He’s making Tadej boring. When Jonas is not around Tadej races aggressively. Think about MSR (Cipressa), Flanders (5 attacks before going), Roubaix (100km to go), Amstel (crazy attack) etc… But with Visma “dirty” tactics he cannot afford that.

Obviously Jonas and Visma will do whatever is best for him and whatever he wants. But for cycling fans, we must admit cycling would improve were Jonas not to race.

 

[Gigs_98]

Another thing worth noting about the rivalry post Peyragudes is that while Pog always dropping Vingegaard at the end of mtf's seems like proof that in reality he was really much stronger, this is actually kinda similar to what happened in 2023. I suppose dropping Vingegaard seemed even easier than then but don't forget that this year Vingegaard had usually already tired himself by putting in some attacks beforehand. I kinda wonder if Vingegaard would win if we had a hilly TT today.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

At this point Vingegaard is a net negative for cycling.

1. He can’t beat Tadej. Pogi is likely very sick and Vingo can’t shake him even going full effort in the best shape of his life.
2. He’s an extremely boring rider. He’s too cautious when it matters. Sure he might attack in a flat stage where there’s no risk. But he never does anything daring when it matters. For instance, even in Ventoux and Madeleine he needs the confidence of having satellite riders to do anything.
3. He’s making Tadej boring. When Jonas is not around Tadej races aggressively. Think about MSR (Cipressa), Flanders (5 attacks before going), Roubaix (100km to go), Amstel (crazy attack) etc… But with Visma “dirty” tactics he cannot afford that.

Obviously Jonas and Visma will do whatever is best for him and whatever he wants. But for cycling fans, we must admit cycling would improve were Jonas not to race.

I rather have the two of them infuriate each other instead of just one of them infuriating me.

 

[Rou]

I kinda wonder if Vingegaard would win if we had a hilly TT today.

No, he wouldn't. Pog has been riding with the brakes on since Peyragude and is working wonders with building up his 'human' side.
I won't go into details because it's clinic related.

 

[franic]

I rather have the two of them infuriate each other instead of just one of them infuriating me.

Just because you don’t like Pogacar (or maybe Jonas?). Which is fine. People have preferences.

But it is a fact that the third week of the Tour has been a snooze fest. The tour in general has been very boring. That is not true when Vingegaard is not around.

Even if Tadej were to dominate like last year, there could have been some interest in the battle for green. Some interest in the final stage in Paris. Like this all the joy is gone. It’s just an Armstrong vs Ullrich situation, where you get a couple of stages where one of the two gets beaten and a continuous snooze fest. On top of that, all the excitement comes from riders trying to make Pogi miss feeding zones, making him fall downhill, let him hit their car, and other mind games like that.

 

[Gingivitis]

Ofcourse you get isolated at 70km when Visma launches it and Vingegaard attacks.

Both UAE and Visma have actually been less than impressive this Tour. In fact this goes for every GC team in the race. In that sense the race was pretty old school

I actually think Decathlon was very good. When needed to do some damage to Gall's GC opponents they were always there. Of course, they are not top GC team.