Vingegaard vs Pogačar - The Duel

[Gigs_98]

No, he wouldn't. Pog has been riding with the brakes on since Peyragude and is working wonders with building up his 'human' side.
I won't go into details because it's clinic related.

See that's what I don't believe. The way he was racing and using his team makes me think he absolutely wanted to win another stage. He just couldn't do it without risking to lose time and not losing time always remained his number 1 priority.

 

[Rou]

See that's what I don't believe. The way he was racing and using his team makes me think he absolutely wanted to win another stage. He just couldn't do it without risking to lose time and not losing time always remained his number 1 priority.

Of course he wanted to win a stage. But not with a 10 km solo. Preferably with a sprint.

 

[franic]

No, he wouldn't. Pog has been riding with the brakes on since Peyragude and is working wonders with building up his 'human' side.
I won't go into details because it's clinic related.

Ofcourse you get isolated at 70km when Visma launches it and Vingegaard attacks.

Both UAE and Visma have actually been less than impressive this Tour. In fact this goes for every GC team in the race. In that sense the race was pretty old school

Visma was definitely superior in every mountain stage but Hautacam. And in Hautacam it was really about the Narvaez’s lead out and Jorgenson being cooked.

UAE made the huge mistake of relying too much on Almeida, which probably could have even beaten Jonas in GC, but once he was out there was absolutely not a single decent climber left. After Dauphine they also probably thought Tadej was of another level (which turned out to be true) and team selection was irrelevant.

If they want peace of mind next year, they need to have at least Del Toro. Majka and Yates are getting old. Ayuso is not reliable. With a proper team, though, there’s no competition between Jonas and Tadej.

 

[AmRacer]

Visma was definitely superior in every mountain stage but Hautacam. And in Hautacam it was really about the Narvaez’s lead out and Jorgenson being cooked.

UAE made the huge mistake of relying too much on Almeida, which probably could have even beaten Jonas in GC, but once he was out there was absolutely not a single decent climber left. After Dauphine they also probably thought Tadej was of another level (which turned out to be true) and team selection was irrelevant.

If they want peace of mind next year, they need to have at least Del Toro. Majka and Yates are getting old. Ayuso is not reliable. With a proper team, though, there’s no competition between Jonas and Tadej.

Pogi has a quite good lead so...

 

[franic]

Of course he wanted to win a stage. But not with a 10 km solo. Preferably with a sprint.

See, where I think you’re wrong is in thinking there’s no middle ground between a sprint and a long range 10km attack. There were attacking spots with 7km and 5Km to go. That’s where a healthy Pogacar would have attacked to win the stage. It’s literally the easiest thing to do, if you have the legs, to launch an attack with 4/5km to go, catch Arensman who is 30sec in front and cruise towards the finish line.

But I do understand Jonas a little bit: after the humiliation of Col Del Couillole last year, he probably didn’t want to repeat that.

 

[YavorD]

But there is a duel. From the moment Pog isn't at his top level, he's got Vinge on his wheel. In fact Vinge has been on his wheel throughout this Tour except Hautacam. It's the dynamic duo of the Tour.

Neither drops the other except on their super days and it looks like Pog's super days are now much better than Vinge's.

I think it this particular case (Hautacam) it was coupled with not-so-good day for Vingegaard.

However, I stated a few times that I think Narvaez was they key tool on this stage. It's just similarities with Combloux were too many to ignore.
Acceleration that kills everyone bar the 2 aliens, Pog putting an enormous gap to Vingegaard, while Lipowitz is closer than normal to Vingegaard, while Lipo himself not losing much in the last kilometres.

 

[franic]

Pogi has a quite good lead so...

Not really. If you are always left on 10-20km climbs with Johnny Narvaez, then there is some problem. Just look last year’s Galibier stage: Ayuso, Yates, Almeida. That’s what a proper lead looks like on big mountains (forgetting about the issues with Ayuso).

 

[Rou]

I think it this particular case (Hautacam) it was coupled with not-so-good day for Vingegaard.

However, I stated a few times that I think Narvaez was they key tool on this stage. It's just similarities with Combloux were too many to ignore.
Acceleration that kills everyone bar the 2 aliens, Pog putting an enormous gap to Vingegaard, while Lipowitz is closer than normal to Vingegaard, while Lipo himself not losing much in the last kilometres.

The reality is that Pogacar smashed Vingegaard in 3 FTP efforts and sealed the race.
The Flat TT
Hautacam
Peyragude
After that he was sucking wheels and some people start forgetting the real gap between the two.

 

[Peyroteo94]

But there is a duel. From the moment Pog isn't at his top level, he's got Vinge on his wheel. In fact Vinge has been on his wheel throughout this Tour except Hautacam. It's the dynamic duo of the Tour.

Neither drops the other except on their super days and it looks like Pog's super days are now much better than Vinge's.

We didn't have a real fight in this Tour. After Hautacam, Pogacar still won the MTT by a decent margin and followed Vingo very easily in the mountain stages. Even yesterday, Pogacar was leading the climb for 10 km and Vingegaard just beat him in the sprint.

 

[slim charles]

.

Not really. If you are always left on 10-20km climbs with Johnny Narvaez, then there is some problem. Just look last year’s Galibier stage: Ayuso, Yates, Almeida. That’s what a proper lead looks like on big mountains (forgetting about the issues with Ayuso).

I believe they are saying that he has 4 and a half minutes lead?

All the talk about team being bad is, idk, weird. They did what they set out to do won the race, have 5 stages. That they didn't dominate every stage and looked inferior to Visma at times does not really matter that much in the end

 

[franic]

I think it this particular case (Hautacam) it was coupled with not-so-good day for Vingegaard.

However, I stated a few times that I think Narvaez was they key tool on this stage. It's just similarities with Combloux were too many to ignore.
Acceleration that kills everyone bar the 2 aliens, Pog putting an enormous gap to Vingegaard, while Lipowitz is closer than normal to Vingegaard, while Lipo himself not losing much in the last kilometres.

I 100% agree with the second part on Narvaez. But I think you might be wrong on the first part. I think after two years we can say the absolute top level of Jonas is Plateau de Beille 2024 or Ventoux 2025. That’s not enough to leave a so-so Pogacar behind. On the other end, top level Pogacar (PdB 2024 or even Combloux) can leave Jonas behind. I might be wrong though.

 

[franic]

.

I believe they are saying that he has 4 and a half minutes lead?

All the talk about team being bad is, idk, weird. They did what they set out to do won the race, have 5 stages. That they didn't dominate every stage and looked inferior to Visma at times does not really matter that much in the end

I agree with you that it doesn’t matter. But it doesn’t matter because Pogi in 2025 is a better rider. Better uphill. Better in ITT. And better in mixed stages.

But had Tadej raced for Visma, I think he would have won the Tour by 6/7 minutes. And IMHO, it’s not really because UAE doesn’t have the riders: just a mix of bad luck (losing Almeida) and bringing some riders in bad shape (Sivakov, Yates, maybe even Soler?).

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Just because you don’t like Pogacar (or maybe Jonas?). Which is fine. People have preferences.

But it is a fact that the third week of the Tour has been a snooze fest. The tour in general has been very boring. That is not true when Vingegaard is not around.

Even if Tadej were to dominate like last year, there could have been some interest in the battle for green. Some interest in the final stage in Paris. Like this all the joy is gone. It’s just an Armstrong vs Ullrich situation, where you get a couple of stages where one of the two gets beaten and a continuous snooze fest. On top of that, all the excitement comes from riders trying to make Pogi miss feeding zones, making him fall downhill, let him hit their car, and other mind games like that.

I don't like either of them, and I watched last year's Giro so I know that total domination doesn't make it more enjoyable for me. And that could have been the case in a Vingegaard only Tour as well, as we know he has no problem with being the attacking force when he isn't up against Pogačar (at least before the Itzulia crash).

There could definitely have been a battle for green, but we can't blame Vingegaard or Visma for the competition rules, the route or sprinters not making it to the end of the race.

 

[Filippo_3467]

This is not a duel anymore. Pogacar is dominating all year and Jonas has one race he wants to win and isn't really in contention without a Pogi crash. Clever by Pogi to not humiliate him more so ASO can hype the non fight next year. Hopefully after 2-3 wins in the next 2-3 years he is tired of winning everything and ends his career.

 

[franic]

I don't like either of them, and I watched last year's Giro so I know that total domination doesn't make it more enjoyable for me. And that could have been the case in a Vingegaard only Tour as well, as we know he has no problem with being the attacking force when he isn't up against Pogačar (at least before the Itzulia crash).

There could definitely have been a battle for green, but we can't blame Vingegaard or Visma for the competition rules, the route or sprinters not making it to the end of the race.

De gustibus… who am I to tell you what you should enjoy? I did watch last year’s Giro and didn’t mind it, honestly. Better that than watching third-rate riders take the win, as we’ve seen in 2025, 2022, 2020, 2017, 2012, and so on.

My point about the green jersey was simply this: if Tadej is close enough in Paris, he might just be tempted to attack on Montmartre.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

De gustibus… who am I to tell you what you should enjoy? I did watch last year’s Giro and didn’t mind it, honestly. Better that than watching third-rate riders take the win, as we’ve seen in 2025, 2022, 2020, 2017, 2012, and so on.

My point about the green jersey was simply this: if Tadej is close enough in Paris, he might just be tempted to attack on Montmartre.

You are of course also allowed to enjoy what you want. I don't expect to convince anyone that my view is the right one, because it probably isn't.

I am often on the side of tradition and that goes to the Paris finale as well, so I'm perfectly fine with it being a procession stage after three weeks, but I acknowledge that many people seem to have a different opinion. If this design ends up becoming the new format, I will most likely grow accustomed to it over time though.

 

[CyclistAbi]

It's basically too much one sided to be considered a rivalry, it's basically a Pogi show, day in day out. So it can be enjoyable as such, but in general and for sport it likely isn't the best possible outcome. Pogi IMHO shouldn't be blamed for that.

 

[75Driver]

Lots of differing opinions but you cant deny Jonas has been disappointing and the result is no "dual". Pog is better by a little most of the time and by a lot some of the time. Jonas is rarely better and I lost a lot of respect for him yesterday. That nancy effort on the final climb was shameful wheel sucking of the highest order. Definitely not worthy of a champion. He needs to turn in his man card and grab a skirt. Pitiful effort from a former Tour champion.

 

[Rackham]

Lots of differing opinions but you cant deny Jonas has been disappointing and the result is no "dual". Pog is better by a little most of the time and by a lot some of the time. Jonas is rarely better and I lost a lot of respect for him yesterday. That nancy effort on the final climb was shameful wheel sucking of the highest order. Definitely not worthy of a champion. He needs to turn in his man card and grab a skirt. Pitiful effort from a former Tour champion.

It'll be Niermann's work as well. It's the sort of idea that gets floated in the team bus and sounds 'smart' before the stage. It wasn't just Visma either, for example Brian Smith on Eurosport was pretty much suggesting Vingegaard race exactly the way he did right at the beginning of yesterday's stage as well, i.e. sit on Pog and attack for the stage win whilst forgetting about GC.

Now out on the road it looked much worse than the idea sounded beforehand (because Vinge also totally timed his attack badly by leaving it way too late). Also, the fact Pog was ready to just let Arensman win as well is something Visma likely didn't factor.

 

[Unchained]

Visma was definitely superior in every mountain stage but Hautacam. And in Hautacam it was really about the Narvaez’s lead out and Jorgenson being cooked.

UAE made the huge mistake of relying too much on Almeida, which probably could have even beaten Jonas in GC, but once he was out there was absolutely not a single decent climber left. After Dauphine they also probably thought Tadej was of another level (which turned out to be true) and team selection was irrelevant.

If they want peace of mind next year, they need to have at least Del Toro. Majka and Yates are getting old. Ayuso is not reliable. With a proper team, though, there’s no competition between Jonas and Tadej.

If Jonas Vingegaard is not absolutely heartbroken after this race management mudslide he just is not thinking!! Ving had great legs daily!! He had fresh, light look on the bike, Outstanding TTs that kept him in the hunt, he was out of trouble almost always.. Early Wout, Capanerts, Jorgenson, Yates, Benoot all looked poised for something, all riding strong. The team director decided to drive the full bus off the cliff, with hopes of the entire team.
Still can't believe that the director could keep a straight face day after day after day telling the public and his team that they could break Pogacar, put a saddle and harness, control the racehorse that has been Pogacar for years, but confirmed from February of 2025!! Tadej racing strong, almost flawless.
But as if with no data and a blindfold on, Jonas brainwashed, with his teammates that Pogacar was actually weak and vulnerable.. and Visma would teach him a lesson.. Put him in his place!!
UAE with a slightly inferior squad was able to use teamwork and tactics to absolutely dominate Visma!! UAE winning 5 of 20 stages so far!!@25% of the time, against everyone, they win!! How could that happen!!
One way is send riders like Wout Van Aert, Victor Campanerts, Matteo Jorgenson on silly, pointless suicide missions to nowhere, for nothing!! And by accident, Yates in one of those missions found gap so big he got a stage win!!
Vingegaard was excellent, his support and plan couldn't have not been worse!!
And tomorrow after 21 stages waiting to hear from Visma, yeah wearing Pogacar down didn't work..

 

[Peyroteo94]

The question is: Since 2024, tell me a thing where Vingegaard is better than Pogacar (excluding having better teammates)?
Flat TT? No
Hilly TT? No
MTT ? No
Flat? No
Cobbles? No
Gravel? No
Echelons? No
Positioning? No (Pogacar alone can be at the front easily.)
Descending? Even
High mountains? No
Medium mountains? No
Punchy finishes (hills)? No
Endurance? No
Recovery? No
Sprinting? No

How the hell can Vingegaard beat Pogacar?

 

[AmRacer]

The question is: Since 2024, tell me a thing where Vingegaard is better than Pogacar (excluding having better teammates)?
Flat TT? No
Hilly TT? No
MTT ? No
Flat? No
Cobbles? No
Gravel? No
Echelons? No
Positioning? No (Pogacar alone can be at the front easily.)
Descending? Even
High mountains? No
Medium mountains? No
Punchy finishes (hills)? No
Endurance? No
Recovery? No
Sprinting? No

How the hell can Vingegaard beat Pogacar?

With their team car? 😉

 

[Gigs_98]

The question is: Since 2024, tell me a thing where Vingegaard is better than Pogacar (excluding having better teammates)?
Flat TT? No
Hilly TT? No
MTT ? No
Flat? No
Cobbles? No
Gravel? No
Echelons? No
Positioning? No (Pogacar alone can be at the front easily.)
Descending? Even
High mountains? No
Medium mountains? No
Punchy finishes (hills)? No
Endurance? No
Recovery? No
Sprinting? No

How the hell can Vingegaard beat Pogacar?

Tbh it's not exactly a great revelation that the guy who dominated Vingegaard in 2024 and 2025 was better in those years.

 

[repre]

The question is: Since 2024, tell me a thing where Vingegaard is better than Pogacar (excluding having better teammates)?
Flat TT? No
Hilly TT? No
MTT ? No
Flat? No
Cobbles? No
Gravel? No
Echelons? No
Positioning? No (Pogacar alone can be at the front easily.)
Descending? Even
High mountains? No
Medium mountains? No
Punchy finishes (hills)? No
Endurance? No
Recovery? No
Sprinting? No

How the hell can Vingegaard beat Pogacar?

Man, Vingo just bored Pogi into submission. Tadej maybe won the battle, but Jonas won the war at the TDF-2025!

 

[aruipksni]

it's not a duel anymore, it's sort of a master-slave relationship now.
image: the duel between pogacar (left) vs vingegaard (right)