Vingegaard vs Pogačar - The Duel

[Peyroteo94]

Redrick is losing his mind because Visma compared this rivalry to Federer vs Nadal instead of Nole vs Murray

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[QueenStagiaire]

Redrick is losing his mind because Visma compared this rivalry to Federer vs Nadal instead of Nole vs Murray

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So who is this sport‘s Djokovič? Del Toro? Paul Seixas? Benjamín Noval? Del Toro would be the only fitting comparison agewise but I can‘t see someone before.

 

[Miha81]

So who is this sport‘s Djokovič? Del Toro? Paul Seixas? Benjamín Noval? Del Toro would be the only fitting comparison agewise but I can‘t see someone before.

Maybe Lipo. Who knows. But we need sports Djokovic to make this interesting again.

 

[Red Rick]

So who is this sport‘s Djokovič? Del Toro? Paul Seixas? Benjamín Noval? Del Toro would be the only fitting comparison agewise but I can‘t see someone before.

Mathieu van der Poel

Kicked out of Australia vs kicked out of Australia

 

[Krzysztof_O]

@Peyroteo94
Nice post by Visma LAB

 

[Red Rick]

Redrick is losing his mind because Visma compared this rivalry to Federer vs Nadal instead of Nole vs Murray

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Tbh there are clear parallels to Federer-Nadal. At Roland Garros. Which was just beatdown after beatdown after beatdown.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Tbh there are clear parallels to Federer-Nadal. At Roland Garros. Which was just beatdown after beatdown after beatdown.

3:2 is Tour H2H. As long as GTs are concerned Its much more competitive than Armstrong vs Ullrich, Ancquetil vs Poulidor or even Coppi vs Bartali.

 

[Tanakka]

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Good!

I know it's an unpopular opinion, of mine, but I stated multiple times that it doesn't really makes sense for Pog and Vingo to exaust eachother in any multiple stages race that isn't the TdF.
The TdF is over three weeks, not over a day like a monument classic. Therefore it's enough to quench the fans thirst.
We don't need to seem them both at the Vuelta in 2025.

If they were smart they'd split:
-in 2026 you do Giro-Tour; I'll do Tour-Vuelta
-you do Dauphineé; I do Suisse
...
-in 2027 you do Tirreno Adriatico; I do Paris Nice
...

I know it's not romantic, and some people might get disgusted by said idea, but honestly if I were the higherups of Visma&UAE, I'd definitely play it that way.

 

[BigL]

At this point Vingegaard is a net negative for cycling.

1. He can’t beat Tadej. Pogi is likely very sick and Vingo can’t shake him even going full effort in the best shape of his life.
2. He’s an extremely boring rider. He’s too cautious when it matters. Sure he might attack in a flat stage where there’s no risk. But he never does anything daring when it matters. For instance, even in Ventoux and Madeleine he needs the confidence of having satellite riders to do anything.
3. He’s making Tadej boring. When Jonas is not around Tadej races aggressively. Think about MSR (Cipressa), Flanders (5 attacks before going), Roubaix (100km to go), Amstel (crazy attack) etc… But with Visma “dirty” tactics he cannot afford that.

Obviously Jonas and Visma will do whatever is best for him and whatever he wants. But for cycling fans, we must admit cycling would improve were Jonas not to race.

Is this sarcasm ? The argument being that Vingegaard is making Pogacar boring. To make it more interesting his only competition for the past years needs to excuse himself ? Logic died on a hill here somewhere. That, or crazy fanboyism.

 

[Red Rick]

Good!

I know it's an unpopular opinion, of mine, but I stated multiple times that it doesn't really makes sense for Pog and Vingo to exaust eachother in any multiple stages race that isn't the TdF.
The TdF is over three weeks, not over a day like a monument classic. Therefore it's enough to quench the fans thirst.
We don't need to seem them both at the Vuelta in 2025.

If they were smart they'd split:
-in 2026 you do Giro-Tour; I'll do Tour-Vuelta
-you do Dauphineé; I do Suisse
...
-in 2027 you do Tirreno Adriatico; I do Paris Nice
...

I know it's not romantic, and some people might get disgusted by said idea, but honestly if I were the higherups of Visma&UAE, I'd definitely play it that way.

That's what Roglic has been doing since 2020. They've met once in a stage race outside the TdF in 5 years.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

As much as I would like to see another Pog v. Vingo battle at this year's Vuelta, I don't think Pog should do it. It seems rather clear he needs a break and this season has exhausted him. OTOH, Jonas looks much more fresh, and rightfully so given his easier schedule. Although, I fear this will make for a very boring Vuelta. I don't see anyone other than Pog posing much of a challenge to Vingo.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

As much as I would like to see another Pog v. Vingo battle at this year's Vuelta, I don't think Pog should do it. It seems rather clear he needs a break and this season has exhausted him. OTOH, Jonas looks much more fresh, and rightfully so given his easier schedule. Although, I fear this will make for a very boring Vuelta. I don't see anyone other than Pog posing much of a challenge to Vingo.

Pretty much this. Vingo will likely be below his best but still good enough to win the Vuelta. After a good rest Pog will target what he loves most: big classics (WC and Lombardy).

 

[Valv.Piti]

That's what Roglic has been doing since 2020. They've met once in a stage race outside the TdF in 5 years.

Tbf Pog averages like one big one week stage race a year or something like that, but its quite smart since Pogacar literally is completely unbeatable in such races.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

To be fair, as dominant as Pog has been, he has little margin for error given his race preferences. In the Classics, MvdP is his primary challenger and can match him on most courses (see their 2-2 split on monuments so far). In Grand Tours, Vingo is a very close rival, having beaten Pog twice and finished 2nd no fewer than 3 times. No other racer dares such a combination of classics and GT racing (at least not at anything close to Pog's level), but there are consequences, fatigue and lack of motivation being two primary ones.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

2020 Pogacar
2021 Pogacar
2022 Vingegaard
2023 Vingegaard
2024 Pogacar
2025 Pogacar
2026 ???
2027 ???

We know what will happen in the next two years so maybe @Froome will be back in 2026? Too bad he didn't say goodbye.

 

[Berniece]

As much as I would like to see another Pog v. Vingo battle at this year's Vuelta, I don't think Pog should do it. It seems rather clear he needs a break and this season has exhausted him. OTOH, Jonas looks much more fresh, and rightfully so given his easier schedule. Although, I fear this will make for a very boring Vuelta. I don't see anyone other than Pog posing much of a challenge to Vingo.

All the more reason we want to see Pog at the Vuelta. To actually have a battle for GC.

 

[elguapo]

Man, Vingo just bored Pogi into submission. Tadej maybe won the battle, but Jonas won the war at the TDF-2025!

How many times Vingo finished in front of Pogi, and how many times did Pogi finish in front of Vingo, and who has the wider smile after each stage, and after the tour? Next year, so that both would be in peak form in the Tour, both should race MSR, LBL, Tour of Flanders, Roubaix and Basque Country or Dauphine.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Good!

I know it's an unpopular opinion, of mine, but I stated multiple times that it doesn't really makes sense for Pog and Vingo to exaust eachother in any multiple stages race that isn't the TdF.
The TdF is over three weeks, not over a day like a monument classic. Therefore it's enough to quench the fans thirst.
We don't need to seem them both at the Vuelta in 2025.

If they were smart they'd split:
-in 2026 you do Giro-Tour; I'll do Tour-Vuelta
-you do Dauphineé; I do Suisse
...
-in 2027 you do Tirreno Adriatico; I do Paris Nice
...

I know it's not romantic, and some people might get disgusted by said idea, but honestly if I were the higherups of Visma&UAE, I'd definitely play it that way.

I didn't know Visma and UAE were run by wrestling promoters... "don't give the money match away for free" and all that.

At the moment it seems irrelevant because not only are both riders head and shoulders above everybody else, but Pogačar is currently head and shoulders above Vingegaard, so this would just mean twice as many races become boring parades for the one dominant rider in attendance, unfortunately, so unless you get both of them at the same race, it's going to make a lot of races a waste of everybody's time and attention.

The rivalry as we speak is more Contador vs. Schleck, with Vingegaard riding a comparatively selective calendar, and then coming 2nd, while Pogačar runs a more comprehensive calendar and still wins. However, the comparison breaks down because the only races Schleck used to target outside the Tour were the Ardennes classics, while Contador would fill his boots at smaller stage races, whereas outside of their GT exploits, Vingegaard pretty much exclusively does a handful of personal favourite stage races, while Pogačar does a complete calendar of one day races too.

 

[AmRacer]

How many times Vingo finished in front of Pogi, and how many times did Pogi finish in front of Vingo, and who has the wider smile after each stage, and after the tour? Next year, so that both would be in peak form in the Tour, both should race MSR, LBL, Tour of Flanders, Roubaix and Basque Country or Dauphine.

How many times do you expect Jonas to crash?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Let's compare this rivalry with other notable Tour rivalries. Number of times a given pair of cyclists was together on the Tour podium:

Pogacar & Vingegaard: 5 times (5 x 1&2)
Armstrong & Ullrich: 4 times (3 x 1&2, 1 x 1&3) (results voided)
Anquetil & Bahamontes: 3 times (2 x 1&3, 1 x 1&2)
Merckx & Poulidor: 3 times (2 x 1&3, 1 x 1&2)
Hinault & Zoetemelk: 3 times (3 x 1&2)
Hinault & Lemond: 3 times (2 x 1&2, 1 x 2&3)
Armstrong & Beloki: 3 times (2 x 1&3, 1 x 1&2) (results voided)
Froome & Quintana: 3 times (2 x 1&2, 1 x 1&3)

 

[Red Rick]

Wonder if they have the most 1-2s in stages in history too.

Vingegaard has 2 wins this year. He has 13 2nd places. Of those 13 second places, only 1 was in a race without Pogacar, 9 were behind Pogacar, 2 of the remaining 3 had Pogacar in third, and one of those 2 were Pogacar letting him have the sprint.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Let's see how our heroes fare in the most podium finishes stat:

Poulidor 8 (0-3-5)
Armstrong 8 (7-0-1) (results voided)
Zoetemelk 7 (1-6-0)
Hinault 7 (5-2-0)
Ullrich 7 (1-5-1)
Anquetil 6 (5-0-1)
Merckx 6 (5-1-0)
Froome 6 (4-1-1)
Pogacar 6 (4-2-0)
LeMond 5 (3-1-1)
Indurain 5 (5-0-0)
Vingegaard 5 (2-3-0)

They still are a bit behind the absolute best but can get there soon. The record holder (Poupou) is an interesting case: 8 podiums but no victories, oh man. Zoetemelk (with 6 runner-ups) is unbelievable but at least he won once (he had to face Merckx and Hinault so it wasn't easy).

 

[Valv.Piti]

Armstrong is at 8 though (well, or 0) due to 2009 where he somehow managed to finish on the podium behind Contador and Schleck.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Let's see how our heroes fare in the most podium finishes stat:

Poulidor 8 (0-3-5)
Zoetemelk 7 (1-6-0)
Hinault 7 (5-2-0)
Ullrich 7 (1-5-1)
Armstrong 7 (7-0-0) (results voided)
Anquetil 6 (5-0-1)
Merckx 6 (5-1-0)
Froome 6 (4-1-1)
Pogacar 6 (4-2-0)
LeMond 5 (3-1-1)
Indurain 5 (5-0-0)
Vingegaard 5 (2-3-0)

They still are a bit behind the absolute best but can get there soon. The record holder (Poupou) is an interesting case: 8 podiums but no victories, oh man. Zoetemelk (with 6 runner-ups) is unbelievable but at least he won once (he had to face Merckx and Hinault so it wasn't easy).

All GTs:

Roglič 8
Pogačar 8
Vingegaard 6

 

[Tanakka]

Poulidor 8 (0-3-5)
Zoetemelk 7 (1-6-0)
Hinault 7 (5-2-0)
Ullrich 7 (1-5-1)
Armstrong 7 (7-0-1) (results voided)
Anquetil 6 (5-0-1)
Merckx 6 (5-1-0)
Froome 6 (4-1-1)
Pogacar 6 (4-2-0)
LeMond 5 (3-1-1)
Indurain 5 (5-0-0)
Vingegaard 5 (2-3-0)

Points (5-2-1 system):

Amstrong 36
Hinault 29
Marckx 27
Anquetil 26
Indurain 25
Pogacar 24
Froome 23
Lemond 18
Zoetemek 17
Vingegaard 16
Ulrich 16
Poulidor 11