Vino bought the 2010 LBL?

[El Pistolero]

c'mon pistolero be a man and admit it. you managed to mention phil, merckx and god vdb in all the posts. the next one i was expecting was fries and mayonaise.

Actually I never mentioned Phil until people started attacking me with it. Do get your facts straight.

What do I need to admit? That Vino is such a great cyclist that he feels the need to pay Kolobnev money to win a race? Joking aside, you and I know Vino isn't the great cyclist he's portrayed as on this forum. Why lie to your self? If he was anything like this forum thinks he is he would've just beaten Kolobnev without offering him money. He's not the Chuck Noriss of cycling and never will be.

If Vino is anything, he's just an Eastern-European stereotype.

 

[jens_attacks]

just coming from lausanne:

and wrong, vino is a god of cycling.

 

[El Pistolero]

Lance Armstrong would be the god of cycling with your logic. Vino is just a dumb version of Armstrong. As you said your self, delete the e-mails Vino. Why would you say this if you knew he had done nothing wrong? Deep inside you know he's an imposter.

 

[The Hitch]

Actually I never mentioned Phil until people started attacking me with it. Do get your facts straight.
.

Not entirely true. You did when this was announced, joyously declare GIlbert the official winner of 2010 Liege, and followed this line of argument for months afterwards (even though you don't consider Andy Schleck the 2010 Tour winner which is a bit inconsistent).

So when people accused you of cheering against Vino so that Gilbert can win, it may have been because they remember what you posted before

 

[El Pistolero]

Not entirely true. You did when this was announced, joyously declare GIlbert the official winner of 2010 Liege, and followed this line of argument for months afterwards (even though you don't consider Andy Schleck the 2010 Tour winner which is a bit inconsistent).

So when people accused you of cheering against Vino so that Gilbert can win, it may have been because they remember what you posted before

You mean when I joked about how stupid it is a guy that came fourth can eventually win a race?

I use emotes like "" for a reason you know.

Gilbert already won LBL in 2011. A win like 2010 would mean nothing, Vino ruined that edition forever. Might as well call that edition a criterium... Ever thought about the fact that I'm also a fanboy of the actual races? So to see people like Vino lower their prestige by buying them so cheaply, it makes me very angry. Liége-Bastogne-Liége is bigger than Alexandr Vinokourov.

 

[hrotha]

Can we just agree not to discuss Gilbert in this thread? It's silly. It doesn't matter of Gilbert or anyone else inherits that win.

 

[The Hitch]

Lol Hitch, what nonsense you can post about Cancellara sometimes.

So, it wouldn't count if Phil had to pay Cancellara because you think he's God, but paying Kolobnev is ok. Ok, makes no sense at all. Isn't it actually worse if you have to buy off someone like Kolobnev to win a race?

Again, I never said one should or should not count, I am pointing out the difference between your wild examples of a totally rigged race, and the actual Vino situation where he bought off 1 rider after he had already put himself in a good position

Also it doesn't matter at all if you're bribing one, two or ten people. The result is the same: you're fixing the race.

Im not commenting on whether or not its fixing the race, I am pointing out the flaws in your comparisons between the wild examples about paying off the entire peloton and paying 1 decent level rider.

Also if you have any proof on Gilbert buying the Worlds then please give it to us. But until then, we can only work with proof. .

I dont have proof that Gilbert did buy the worlds, i dont think he did, i just wondered why you declared that you knew 100% that he did not.

And there's enough proof for Vino to warrant an investigation. Also, a witness has stated Vino paid MULTIPLE people to win Paris-Nice back in 2003. That's a lot of bribing stories/rumours for just one cyclist..

Never posted anything about any of that, but good for you.

Since when is Cancellara the strongest one day racer of our generation? That's a joke right?

I deliberately used strongest rather than best because i didnt want to get into your whole - "its worthless if you dont win" thing, or to count up monuments. He is a guy who with no team on his day can blow an entire monument to pieces, and on a number of different terrains.

I think he is the strongest, but even if you dont think hes the strongest youll surely have to admit he is the 2nd strongest and 1 of the all time greats and that therefore there would be a huge difference between paying him off pre race, and paying kolobnev 100 gs.

 

[El Pistolero]

No, he's not the second strongest of our generation either(he had one of the strongest teams up until 2011 and he made his own choice in leaving that team). Though this is not the place to discuss that, perhaps make a thread.

I don't see any difference with paying off Cancellara or Kolobnev. I mean, if we're using strange race behavior as evidence for selling a race Cancellara has sold quite a few already. But of course that would be silly. Just a simple principle of innocent until proven guilty. I admit I don't always adhere to that principle, but I try to.

 

[Afrank]

ok thank you, for proving what an utter hypocrite you are. no reason to discuss any further, it;s either both wrong or both right

Lol, yeah, I post something you don't agree with so you called me a hypocrite. Your debate strategy is terrific, when you can't disprove them with logic do it with insults .

it's common knowledge boogerds win on la plagne rabo paid us epostal for. rabo also paid langeveld to lose the nationals to boogerd, which was blatantly on tv being spoken out. vino simply paid kolobnev for his work and the best man won.

Again, from the emails I think it is easy to tell he paid Kolobnev for a final with not competition, allowing him to win.

I don't think we'll ever know for sure.

True, we can't know for sure without a shadow of doubt unless one of them comes forward and says it. But at this point I think the Evidence points towards it being true.

Anybody knows where it says so?

I know there is some kind of rule against it, but not sure where in the UCI rules it is. If I have time I'll look through the UCI rules and try to find it later.

So it would have been OK if Vino had payed Kolobnev to cooperate with him until 200 m before the finish line?
When I saw L-B-L in 2010 I saw a real race.
Personally I think that buying a race is somewhat amoral and wrong in a sense but on the other hand I feel that there's not really any arguments arguing that it's wrong other than that it's wrong. Morally I think Andy paying off some random rider to help him in the Galibier stage is worse because it influences other than the two of them. On the other hand complex motives for cooperating is part of cycling tactics and (imo) a big part of what makes cycling interesting and differentiates it from other sports.
I don't think that paying someone in cool cash is so different from paying in future help/alliances or a contract at the end of the year (Kiriyenka helping team Sky at the olympics anyone? where's the thread about that!) but it obviously makes the deal more concrete/visible.

I think buying the race, not matter when it was done, discredits the winner. Sure it looked like a real race at the time but now that this evidence has come out I just can't find myself thinking of Vino as the true winner. If a rider pays another for his cooperation with him then I think that is ok, but when that money is not only for the cooperation but for the rider to not compete for the win, then I think that is not ok. I want to see a true race from the very start to the very end, and that's not going to happen if you have guys taking money to purposefully lose the race.

always makes me day when you call me a hypocrite

and pls point it out in the emails to me, because I can't read it.

and I'm sure leukemans or museeuw would get booed too oh wait, museeuw is still often seen in national tv and seen as a hero

I pointed this out to you before but I will do it again.
Here is Kolobnev's email.

"Remember that for me it was a great chance. I do not know if I was right to do what I did. Not so much because of our agreement, but mostly because of my feelings towards you and towards your situation. Even my wife was not too bothered by the fact that I was second, because you were the first. If it had been someone else in your place there, I would have gone for the win, glory and bonus (I have this in my contract for the classics). That day I felt stronger than ever.

"Now it only remains for me to wait patiently to see if all this was not vain. Here is a copy of all my bank details; clear this from your mail box or I risk having my balls cut off. [BSI Locarno bank details follow. - ed.]: Let me know, I'll check the operation and that everything went well. Good luck in the Giro!"

Pay special attention to the bolded, he pretty much says he didn't go for the win.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Actually I never mentioned Phil until people started attacking me with it. Do get your facts straight.

What do I need to admit? That Vino is such a great cyclist that he feels the need to pay Kolobnev money to win a race? Joking aside, you and I know Vino isn't the great cyclist he's portrayed as on this forum. Why lie to your self? If he was anything like this forum thinks he is he would've just beaten Kolobnev without offering him money. He's not the Chuck Noriss of cycling and never will be.

If Vino is anything, he's just an Eastern-European stereotype.

1 Vuelta
and olympic gold and silver
a podium in the tour
a couple of Paris Nice
a Dauphine and a suisse
2xlbl
an agr
Deutschland Tour
1000000 stage victories in different races through his career.
Arguably the most attacking and entertaining rider of his generation

Chuck Norris is crying in a corner right now... Gilbert who?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Yes you are, you just replace Dutch with Colombians. You're probably the biggest nationalist on this forum. I bring up Boogerd to show you it's not just Belgians that threat cyclists as hero's even though they're not.

Really now Iljo Keisse? I doubt you know one thing about his case lol. Don't even bother. Can't compare that case to Vino at all.

Ps: the crowd booing Vino were mostly Walloons. Museeuw isn't a hero in the French speaking part of Belgium. Not that I expect you to know anything about Belgium.

What national TV are you talking about? Tell me one Belgian TV channel that's aimed at all of Belgium?

you are such a nitpicker and I know all about belgium that's why I have that opinion and I also know a lot of belgium and have been there a lot.

I give another example of cancellara getting booed in flanders when he dropped boonen. that is typical flemish fans, wallonnes are also bad but at least they have more pride and aren't all whining calimero's like flemish.

also what country is vino from? what country is cancellara from? what country is ricco from? what country is pantani from? colombia?? I was rooting for vino over uran on the olympics, so there goes your argument out of the window

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Actually I never mentioned Phil until people started attacking me with it. Do get your facts straight.

What do I need to admit? That Vino is such a great cyclist that he feels the need to pay Kolobnev money to win a race? Joking aside, you and I know Vino isn't the great cyclist he's portrayed as on this forum. Why lie to your self? If he was anything like this forum thinks he is he would've just beaten Kolobnev without offering him money. He's not the Chuck Noriss of cycling and never will be.

If Vino is anything, he's just an Eastern-European stereotype.

sometimes yes and you always walk right into it

however this time you called gilbetr the real winner of 2010, which isn;t even funny, so I asusme you simply wanted to bend a discussion towards gilbert as you do in every topic

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

just coming from lausanne:

and wrong, vino is a god of cycling.

lol!


.....

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Can we just agree not to discuss Gilbert in this thread? It's silly. It doesn't matter of Gilbert or anyone else inherits that win.

I don';t think there's a topic on cn.com forums where pisti has been involved where he doesn't mention gilbert at leats once every 5 posts

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Lol, yeah, I post something you don't agree with so you called me a hypocrite. Your debate strategy is terrific, when you can't disprove them with logic do it with insults .



Again, from the emails I think it is easy to tell he paid Kolobnev for a final with not competition, allowing him to win.



True, we can't know for sure without a shadow of doubt unless one of them comes forward and says it. But at this point I think the Evidence points towards it being true.



I know there is some kind of rule against it, but not sure where in the UCI rules it is. If I have time I'll look through the UCI rules and try to find it later.



I think buying the race, not matter when it was done, discredits the winner. Sure it looked like a real race at the time but now that this evidence has come out I just can't find myself thinking of Vino as the true winner. If a rider pays another for his cooperation with him then I think that is ok, but when that money is not only for the cooperation but for the rider to not compete for the win, then I think that is not ok. I want to see a true race from the very start to the very end, and that's not going to happen if you have guys taking money to purposefully lose the race.



I pointed this out to you before but I will do it again.
Here is Kolobnev's email.


Pay special attention to the bolded, he pretty much says he didn't go for the win.

that's what he said yeah. to get the money from vino that was promised(during the race). most likely though kolobnev bull****ted knowing he didn't have the legs to beat vino and vino knowing this, didn't even pay him until later he started begging for it basically and vino probably felt sorry as well.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

1 Vuelta
and olympic gold and silver
a podium in the tour
a couple of Paris Nice
a Dauphine and a suisse
2xlbl
an agr
Deutschland Tour
1000000 stage victories in different races through his career.
Arguably the most attacking and entertaining rider of his generation

Chuck Norris is crying in a corner right now... Gilbert who?

I will never forget how much vino got cheered during giro start of amsterdam(I was there screaming my lungs out with friends). even vino mentioned it afterwards sayign how touched he was(what a contrast to ans few weeks ealier). real fans don't boo hero's, but every succesful person has a pack of haters and on this forum all his haters I'm sure haven't accomplished 1% of what he has

 

[El Pistolero]

you are such a nitpicker and I know all about belgium that's why I have that opinion and I also know a lot of belgium and have been there a lot.

I give another example of cancellara getting booed in flanders when he dropped boonen. that is typical flemish fans, wallonnes are also bad but at least they have more pride and aren't all whining calimero's like flemish.

also what country is vino from? what country is cancellara from? what country is ricco from? what country is pantani from? colombia?? I was rooting for vino over uran on the olympics, so there goes your argument out of the window

No, you only cheer for Colombians and the reason you cheer for Cancellara is probably because of your irrational hate and ignorance about Belgium - which I doubt you know anything of. You speak in stereotypes and with the grammar of an 8 year old.

Cancellara did not get booed in Flanders, I was there when Cancellara accelerated away from Boonen. Cancellara has his only fanclub in Flanders, please don't be so ignorant.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

that's because in belgium everyone and their uncle has a fanclub. it is perfect proove of what little minded people belgians are(flemish talking about here).

you constantly defending your country proves my point time and time again. there are exceptions of course and trust me they fele very lonely there. I've known number of belgians in both belgium and netherlands. guess which country they prefered after living there?

and I speak in stereotypes? yes, but is that wrong? I'm not talking about the exceptions here. I can say russians are alcoholics. I'm a speaking in stereotypes? yes. I'm I lieing? no

and yes start about grammer when all you have literally nothing good to say back

 

[El Pistolero]

1 Vuelta
and olympic gold and silver
a podium in the tour
a couple of Paris Nice
a Dauphine and a suisse
2xlbl
an agr
Deutschland Tour
1000000 stage victories in different races through his career.
Arguably the most attacking and entertaining rider of his generation

Chuck Norris is crying in a corner right now... Gilbert who?

Phil is only 30 years old. If we go back 9 years in time Vino had won very little.

A Paris-Nice title he probably bought. An AGR title he only won because of Armstrong. A Vuelta title achieved through doping(to see the effects of doping just look at the third of that year's Vuelta). Vino who?

Bettini was much more aggressive during races by the way.

 

[El Pistolero]

that's because in belgium everyone and their uncle has a fanclub. it is perfect proove of what little minded people belgians are(flemish talking about here).

you constantly defending your country proves my point time and time again. there are exceptions of course and trust me they fele very lonely there. I've known number of belgians in both belgium and netherlands. guess which country they prefered after living there?

and I speak in stereotypes? yes, but is that wrong? I'm not talking about the exceptions here. I can say russians are alcoholics. I'm a speaking in stereotypes? yes. I'm I lieing? no

and yes start about grammer when all you have literally nothing good to say back

Considering there are more Dutch people in Belgium than vice versa I think the answer is Belgium.

The only reason I'm constantly defending my country is because you're constantly spouting racist BS and making unfounded statements.

 

[cineteq]

No, you only cheer for Colombians and the reason you cheer for Cancellara is probably because of your irrational hate and ignorance about Belgium - which I doubt you know anything of. You speak in stereotypes and with the grammar of an 8 year old.

and yes start about grammer when all you have literally nothing good to say back

We have a match, so what's next?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

who's **** is smaller

 

[The Hitch]

Can we just agree not to discuss Gilbert in this thread? It's silly. It doesn't matter of Gilbert or anyone else inherits that win.

Nice to see you found your way back to this section of the forum btw

 

[The Hitch]

No, he's not the second strongest of our generation either(he had one of the strongest teams up until 2011 and he made his own choice in leaving that team). Though this is not the place to discuss that, perhaps make a thread.

I don't see any difference with paying off Cancellara or Kolobnev. I mean, if we're using strange race behavior as evidence for selling a race Cancellara has sold quite a few already. But of course that would be silly. Just a simple principle of innocent until proven guilty. I admit I don't always adhere to that principle, but I try to.

BTW, what were the "ad hominems" you accused me of? was it because i said Gilbert cant win PR, does that count as an ad hominem in your book?

 

[El Pistolero]

BTW, what were the "ad hominems" you accused me of? was it because i said Gilbert cant win PR, does that count as an ad hominem in your book?

Who says I was talking about you when I said that? I was speaking in general, generally Ryo.

That Phil can't win PR is just an unfounded statement most likely stemming from the fact that you have never watched the Omloop het Volk/Nieuwsblad. But don't worry about it, Phil has no interest in PR as of yet.

If Turgot can come second or Vansummeren/O'Grady win, why not Phil?