Volta a Catalunya, should Valverde bee racing or not?

[Zoncolan]

In the prologue today, Alejandro Valverde came in second after Hushovd, despite being banned by CONI. The Spanyards, as we all suspected didn't comply.
Should the UCI inforce a world-wide ban?

Fire away!

 

[LugHugger]

Well, we aren't party to the evidence but if the UCI are presented with irrefutable DNA evidence that links samples taken from Valverde during the Giro with OP bag samples, then, Yes the ban should immediately be imposed on a worldwide basis irrespective of whether he is in mid race.

What are the UCI dragging their heels over????

 

[Zoncolan]

Well, we aren't party to the evidence but if the UCI are presented with irrefutable DNA evidence that links samples taken from Valverde during the Giro with OP bag samples, then, Yes the ban should immediately be imposed on a worldwide basis irrespective of whether he is in mid race.

What are the UCI dragging their heels over????

Dunno, maybe Valverde made a half million $ donation to the UCI?

 

[Bala Verde]

What are the UCI dragging their heels over????

quite possibly the legal implications of suspending someone based on evidence that is supposedly to have achieved a certain status under Spanish law, and hence the interference with a nation's sovereignty, and/or contributing to the anullment of a criminal case based on violations of fair trial safeguards, due to the supposed status of that aforementioned evidence.

but that's just a wild guess... They could also just be really really slow...

 

[Zoncolan]

quite possibly the legal implications of suspending someone based on evidence that is supposedly to have achieved a certain status under Spanish law, and hence the interference with a nation's sovereignty, and/or contributing to the anullment of a criminal case based on violations of fair trial safeguards, due to the supposed status of that aforementioned evidence.

but that's just a wild guess... They could also just be really really slow...

That all makes perfect sense, especially the last part about them being super slow

 

[Escarabajo]

Legally: yes
Morally: No
My opinion: No

 

[Bala Verde]

That all makes perfect sense, especially the last part about them being super slow

Well, I might have to clarify what they could be contemplating. To illustrate:

If someone is accused of committing a murder, and the police finds evidence, in this case a knife with fingerprints, the prosecutor will initiate criminal investigation/procedures.

Criminal offenses are marked as such, based on the sentence the accused faces, in case he is found guilty. From that perspective, fair trial guarantees are necessitated, so that the accused has basic protections against being put away indefinitely, a common practice in dictatorships.

If a third party, not (even remotely) involved in the case, for example in the murder case above, has (gotten) access to certain evidence, the knife with the fingerprints, the evidence that incriminates the accused, could have been tampered with. For example, the third party, for whatever reason, could have removed, or 'added' fingerprints, so that the accused will be found guilty.

Therefore, since an impartial and fair trial has not been guaranteed, due to interference of a third party, and especially during a criminal process, I believe the court will have to remove the evidence from consideration, or the prosecutor might even have to drop the charges entirely.

Perhaps the UCI is painfully slow in contemplating such a scenario, and if it wants to associate its name with it the CONI investigation...

But again, since they initially accused Michael Schumacher of use of CERA, instead of Stefan, they are probably trying to spell his name right...

 

[BroDeal]

Well, I might have to clarify what they could be contemplating. To illustrate:

If someone is accused of committing a murder, and the police finds evidence, in this case a knife with fingerprints, the prosecutor will initiate criminal investigation/procedures.

Criminal offenses are marked as such, based on the sentence the accused faces, in case he is found guilty. From that perspective, fair trial guarantees are necessitated, so that the accused has basic protections against being put away indefinitely, a common practice in dictatorships.

If a third party, not (even remotely) involved in the case, for example in the murder case above, has (gotten) access to certain evidence, the knife with the fingerprints, the evidence that incriminates the accused, could have been tampered with. For example, the third party, for whatever reason, could have removed, or 'added' fingerprints, so that the accused will be found guilty.

Therefore, since an impartial and fair trial has not been guaranteed, due to interference of a third party, and especially during a criminal process, I believe the court will have to remove the evidence from consideration, or the prosecutor might even have to drop the charges entirely.

Perhaps the UCI is painfully slow in contemplating such a scenario, and if it wants to associate its name with it the CONI investigation...

But again, since they initially accused Michael Schumacher of use of CERA, instead of Stefan, they are probably trying to spell his name right...

I don't think this applies because CONI never had access to the evidence. It is my understanding they are using the results of DNA testing on the blood, not the blood itself. Those results will simply be copies of a computer file or copies of pieces of paper. In no way can using those results alter the evidence that might be used in a criminal trial.

CONI should ban Caisse for ignoring the ban.

 

[Bala Verde]

I don't think this applies because CONI never had access to the evidence. It is my understanding they are using the results of DNA testing on the blood, not the blood itself. Those results will simply be copies of a computer file or copies of pieces of paper. In no way can using those results alter the evidence that might be used in a criminal trial.

CONI should ban Caisse for ignoring the ban.

Well, that's one of the missing pieces of the puzzle. I don't know what CONI had, and how they accessed what they had.

And even then (I must admit I do not know in such detail how far fair trial guarantees reach to protect the accused), if someone had 'leaked' a picture of the murder weapon, the knife with CSI-like arrows pointing at fingerprints and additional writing from police investigators, and had become accessible to a party not involved in the case, that same dissimination of the picture in and by itself could be a violation of fair trial. For if the court fails to protect the 'leaking' of exhibit A, how can they assure that no other piece has undergone the same...

Anyhow, since the saga continues -really it's like a soap- I am very curious what happens next!

 

[53x11 in DC]

ok - not looking to discuss Piti. Anyone know what happened to Franti Rabon today? Crash? Puncture? Sucks when a national champ time trialist doesn't get a chance to shine in his event.

 

[Anonymous]

im wondering what the reaction of the fans is to him out there...
still full of adoration?

 

[LugHugger]

you know, dim, that despite my earlier post, he's probably been the rider that i've most enjoyed watching over the last 5 years or so. i just can't help feeling that i would support him after he's served his ban. hypocrite? guilty, m'lud.

 

[Anonymous]

you know, dim, that despite my earlier post, he's probably been the rider that i've most enjoyed watching over the last 5 years or so. i just can't help feeling that i would support him after he's served his ban. hypocrite? guilty, m'lud.

i like his style.. im also a massive fan of vinnys style agression and the way he rode, i just dont agree with his methods...

if valverde serves his ban and comes back clean, i will support him..
should he be riding under the current situation and cloud thats over him, personally i think he should show a little tact and go to ground until the situation is resolved..

a rider that many people feel should be banned, riding and racing, does little for the sport, and almost falls into the "putting the sport in a bad light catagory".. almost arrogance..

id have a greater respect if he kept out of harms way until a decision is made..

(when i said fans reaction i meant more on the roads as he is racing.. greated with cheers, or indifference...?)

 

[Escarabajo]

you know, dim, that despite my earlier post, he's probably been the rider that i've most enjoyed watching over the last 5 years or so. i just can't help feeling that i would support him after he's served his ban. hypocrite? guilty, m'lud.

Deep inside you should have known who "Piti" was, right?

We all, or most of us, adored a rider that at least has been involved in a doping scandal. It is tough but we need to move on.

Maybe find another one to cheer.

Thanks.

 

[Anonymous]

remember of course the danes have already had the foresight to ban him from racing in denmark as well...

maybe the other countries should just follow suit and he should stick to racing in spain..

i assume looking at previous years he is not welcome at the tour de france, or do the aso have too many people to upset in spain by doing that...?

 

[Big_Blue_Dave]

Personally, I think if CONI are right and played by the rules then Valverde should be banned for two years worldwide (though if it were up to me it would be a lifetime ban, and that is the same for any convicted doper).

I think the fact that the Spanish federation are trying to say that CONI are a bunch of cowboys (my words not theirs), and trying to keep Valverde competing says a little more about the Spanish federations mentality rather than just the riders. Could it be that the Spanish federation were systematically doping their riders and other riders on Spanish teams (I know this does not explain Basso and Ullrich, but does the majority of others)??? This to me seems a more interesting angle due to the reaction from Spanish courts to the whole affair.

Not to forget, that it was originally thought tennis players and footballers had blood bags stored with Fuentes yet none of these sports people have had their names matched to a bag? This, further enhances my point of systematic doping by Spanish sport federations with their stars to improve their performance. Especially, since the case was closed all of a sudden not once but at least twice saying it was not in their jurisdiction at the time.

Overall, i'm not surprised so many sports people were living in Spain on a permanent basis, not just for the weather or training facilities.

 

[Escarabajo]

Personally, I think if CONI are right and played by the rules then Valverde should be banned for two years worldwide (though if it were up to me it would be a lifetime ban, and that is the same for any convicted doper).

I think the fact that the Spanish federation are trying to say that CONI are a bunch of cowboys (my words not theirs), and trying to keep Valverde competing says a little more about the Spanish federations mentality rather than just the riders. Could it be that the Spanish federation were systematically doping their riders and other riders on Spanish teams (I know this does not explain Basso and Ullrich, but does the majority of others)??? This to me seems a more interesting angle due to the reaction from Spanish courts to the whole affair.

Not to forget, that it was originally thought tennis players and footballers had blood bags stored with Fuentes yet none of these sports people have had their names matched to a bag? This, further enhances my point of systematic doping by Spanish sport federations with their stars to improve their performance. Especially, since the case was closed all of a sudden not once but at least twice saying it was not in their jurisdiction at the time.

Overall, i'm not surprised so many sports people were living in Spain on a permanent basis, not just for the weather or training facilities.

You are probably partially correct. I don't think they participated directly but probably turned a blind eye on the situation. Think about Spain trailing in some of the biggest sports in Europe: Tennis, Soccer, Cycling, others, few years ago. I am sure they were enjoying their glory and catching up to the rest of Europe. I don't think nobody was going to be the "rat" about it.
This is just my opinion on the situation, so let's not be so nationalistic about it. I am sure other people from other countries feel frustrated about the whole OP situation.
Thanks.

 

[Anonymous]

and Oscar Pereiro has stuck up for him.. theres another spaniard to cross off my christmas card list..

 

[craig1985]

Should Valverde be riding Catalunya? Hell no (IMO).

As a side note, Valverde has ridden the Dauphine as his lead-up to the Tour, have the organisers (since they are not owned by ASO, yet) of the Dauphine have said he is or is not welcome at their race? Same at the Tour of Switzerland?

 

[Big_Blue_Dave]

You are probably partially correct. I don't think they participated directly but probably turned a blind eye on the situation. Think about Spain trailing in some of the biggest sports in Europe: Tennis, Soccer, Cycling, others, few years ago. I am sure they were enjoying their glory and catching up to the rest of Europe. I don't think nobody was going to be the "rat" about it.
This is just my opinion on the situation, so let's not be so nationalistic about it. I am sure other people from other countries feel frustrated about the whole OP situation.
Thanks.

If you read my initial post correctly, I do state that other sports professionals from other countries have been living in Spain for the past decade or so, including a large number of American cyclists in Girona, some British tennis players, countless football teams doing pre-season training camps and many others.

What I was saying, and yes part of it may have been implied, is that this to me looks like the Spanish authorities do indeed turn a blind eye to it but in the same way also encourage these practices by being openly inactive to stopping people who take performance enhancing drugs.

 

[Escarabajo]

If you read my initial post correctly, I do state that other sports professionals from other countries have been living in Spain for the past decade or so, including a large number of American cyclists in Girona, some British tennis players, countless football teams doing pre-season training camps and many others.

What I was saying, and yes part of it may have been implied, is that this to me looks like the Spanish authorities do indeed turn a blind eye to it but in the same way also encourage these practices by being openly inactive to stopping people who take performance enhancing drugs.

You are spot on then.
Thanks.

 

[Aguirre]

valverde

hi guys

I'm new in this forum an as a reader of cyclingnews for years and writing from Spain I must say i don't agree with the editorial ligne considering valverde's case and I must say the 90% of your opinions are affected by half diggested information. The CONI didn't show up yet any proove that relates valverde's blood bag infected with EPO with its DNA, they say there is the evidence, they say, don't show.
I would like to read from you guys the same veredict for Lance's frozen samples from 99 or the "showercase" and stuff like that. Then you defend the rider, why don't give to alejandro the benefit of the doubt.

He is clean, he was clean, his only problem was to be in a team in 2004, common guys 2004, when the doctor of the team was Fuentes. Does this proove anything? No.

you know guys that "clasicomano" refers to Cancellara? that "amigo de Birilo" refers to F. Schleck. Oh, they are respected riders from noble countries like suisee or danemark. The spanish are on tricks I read from your opinions.
Schleck has been cleared, what this mean he wasnt on the list or pretended to have the blood.

Sevilla, mancebo, vicioso are suspended? no they race, but they have a stigma on them. Koldo Gil, beloki, osa brothers and many had to spot. It's very sad, the whole thing based on suspicion in a time when EPO use was generalise, including Lance guys: EVERYBODY
there is rule in cycling, historically, before Coppi onwards: you can use substances in a certain level... until you are caught! Big Eddy was caught positive was he a criminal???

in Valverde's case there is the intention to close the fu*** Puerto affair sanctionning a big name (a spaniard) just in order to give the impression that all the guilty had payed (specially painfull for the italians because Basso, but he adknowledge) Valverde didn't, won't, cause he is innocent (remember the film with Harrison Ford...)

But, believe me if TAS is clearing him, ASO won't have any incovenient to see him at the Tour as he was for Lieje and Fleche, (and you know how his preventive war against doping is) cause they feel is time to close a door and start again a new era for cycling. And, as I'm writing from the Basque Country, from a super well respected "aficion" one of the best in the world, I'm telling you we should give a bit more of trust to riders rather that aligning ourselves with power strcutures (UCI, CONI, ASO) that are moved by their own interests many of the times.

Valverde is ok at Volta, and will be in Dauphine and none would prevent this. And just to conclude, just because the Tour has 100 km in Italy, without that ASO won't ban him at all!

 

[Escarabajo]

Hi Aguirre,

I respect your opinions on Valverde. But Lance and Schleck are guilty too. At least to my eyes. But I don't make the rules to punish any of these riders. The UCI and CAS have control over this. I am not sure about how legal the CONI case is since there is limited information on it. But as you said, during the last 10 years we know that >80% of these guys were doping so if we need to make a strong fight against it we need to go after whoever we can so we send a message that we don't want it anymore. I am sure that if Valverde is punished for two years we put at least some scare on the rest of the riders.

Now tell me. You know who "Cowboy" in Operacion Puerto is?

 

[ElChingon]

Now tell me. You know who "Cowboy" in Operacion Puerto is?

One of my favorite nicknames on that list

Our guesses on those nicknames have been dead on so far, here's to one more!

 

[Anonymous]

as a refresh i found this on the saxobank forums from 2007

List of the 54 OP riders
The first police report from June 2006 named 54 OP riders. If we look, where the 54 OP riders has been employed in 2002-2006, we can see a clear pattern: Communidad Valenciana = 28, Liberty Seguros = 22, Other teams = Basso, Hamilton, Mancebo, Ullrich.


Here are all 54 OP riders with their 2007 team in parenthesis:

45 active riders: Alonso, Andrle (PSK), Baranowski, Basso (Discovery*suspended), Beloki, Bernabéu (Fuertaventura), Blanco (Duja), Bonilla (Fuertaventura), Botero (Une Orbitel), Cabello (retired), Caruso (Lampre), Cherro (Fuertaventura), A.Davis (Discovery), Edo (Vitoria), D.Etxebarria, Gomis, J.E.Gutierrez (LPR), J.Ignacio Gutierrez (LPR), Hamilton (Tinkoff), Hernandez (Relax), Hruska (Relax), Jaksche (Tinkoff), E.Jimenez (Karpin), Latasa, Lloret (Fuertaventura), Mancebo (Relax), Martinez, Muñoz (Fuertaventura), Nozal (Karpin), Olmo (Andalucia), A.Osa, U.Osa, Santiago Perez (Relax), R.Plaza (Caisse d'Epargne), Pascual-rodriguez, A.Quesada, C.Quesada, N.Ribeiro (Liberty Seguros), Scarponi (Acqua e Sapone*suspended), Serrano (Karpin), Sevilla (Relax), Ullrich (retired), Vicioso (Relax), Zaballa (Caisse d'Epargne), Zarate (Saunier Duval).

4 retired in nov.2005: Casero (retired), I.G.Galdeano (technician at Euskatel), Heras (suspended), Pascual-Llorente (retired)
5 no longer accused: Ballester (Fuerteventura), Contador (Discovery), Gil (Saunier Duval), Paulinho (Discovery), LL Sanchez (Caisse dEpargne).


Out of the 45 active riders (still accused), we have 6 signed on ProTour teams, 25 signed on Continental Teams, and 14 riders was left without a contract. IPCT has decided that all OP riders hired on ProTour teams, wont get allowed to participate in any ProTour race, as long as they are still accused.




List of some new suspected names (so far not implicated officialy):
Recently we learned that the Spanish court has written 6000 more pages, where 49 additional riders are supposed to be identified. We havent yet recieved any new information about additional names. So I will just post all the old information about additional names.

Popovych (Discovery): -codename "popo" written on backside of a hotel card, where Fuentes allegedly doped several riders.
Vinokourov (Astana): -codename "vino" written on backside of a hotel card, where Fuentes allegedly doped several riders.
Mayo (Saunier Duval): -mentioned in a budget paper made by Fuentes with the codename "Ivan May".
Valverde (Caisse d’Epargne): -blood bag found with EPO, name written on backside of hotel card, and mentioned in the budget paper.


Then we have some "codenames" not identified in the first report. Some of these riders might already be on the identified list, since sometimes Fuentes changed their "codename". Anyway here is the list of names, where we so far only have speculation on the identity:

* Cowboy (2003) –could this be Armstrong (many has earlier called him a Cowboy, because he lives in Texas and owns a ranch)?
* Panticosa (2003) –It’s a mountain town with 600 inhabitants and an alpine ski resort (located in Aragon-Huesca province)
* Pavarotti (2003) –could this be Cipollini (because he was a very “loud speaking” man from Italy)?
* Pepito (2003) –Manzano mentioned a rider called “Pepito Flores” (Bettini is called “pepito grillo”; pepito is also a nickname for Jose)
* Obelisk (2003)
* Nibelungo (2003) –confirmed to be one of Ullrichs nicknames (The title of a German national epos, rewritten as an Opera)
* LAS (2003) –could this be Lance ArmStrong? or perhaps Lastras / Laslo bodrogi?
* María (2002-03-04) -could be either Jose Maria Jimenez or Jesus Maria Manzano?
* Rosa (2003-04) –most likely the winner of the Giro “maglia rosa“. Could this be Simoni (won in 2001+2003) or Savoldelli (won in 2002)?
* Valv.(Piti) (2004) –Almost certain to be Valverde (he also has a dog called Piti)
* Urco (2004) -rumoured to be Pereiro (Urco is an old mythical legend about a dog, found in the local city Pontevedra he origins from)
* César (2004-05)
* MZD (2005)
* Clasicómano Luigi (2006) –most likely a special client of Dr. Luigi Cecchini (who is rumoured to have collaborated with Fuentes).
* Huerta (2006) –Its a town with 285 inhabitant in “Castilla y Leon –Salamanca”, but it could also be a region in both Murcia + Valencia.
* Clasicómano (2006) –could this be a classic rider like Bettini/DiLuca/Rebellin/Freire/Valverde?
* Gemma
* Amigo de Birillo –translates to “friend of Birillo”. Could this be Lombardi (who lives in Madrid, and is best friend with Basso)?
* Rosa
* PTNI –Investigators believe this most likely is Pantani

we havnt got very far in two years have we..

source: http://forum.teamcsc-saxobank.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3218&whichpage=63