Volta Ciclista a Catalunya 2023, March 20-26

[noob]

Even LR doesn't think Almeida did anything wrong. The world is upside down

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCpZDayKES8&ab_channel=LanterneRougeCyclingPodcast

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

2. Why is it a good idea to leapfrog a team mate? Why is Soler constantly entitled to pursue his goals despite always failing at them? Who was there to build for the Giro and why is a 4th place equal to a 3rd place if you're both building form and confidence for a GT when you're supposedly to be backed for your team in going for a podium?

Well, while i agree Soler is a loose canon, who offers very little added value as an actual teammate, if Soler is not deemed allowed to fight for his GC here and leapfrog Almeida, how come Almeida was deemed to be entitled to leapfrog Evenepoel in stage 11 of the 2021 Giro, when Evenepoel was 2nd in GC at only a few seconds from Bernal, while Almeida at that moment was 6 minutes down in GC? Weren't you one of the people who said that Almeida should not have waited for his (much) better placed teammate? Then why should Soler?

 

[Riek s]

I would expect Roglic will hold his own and level up on TT from recent performances, coming in second to Remco, but I agree the evidence of recent years indicates that Remco will be better. That Vuelta performance by Remco was unbelievable! I do not think the gaps/km will be as large as in the Vuelta, however, as Roglic will be better.

Looking forward to Roglic going on offense and also seeing whether Remco will continue to attack with the lead or if he too will defend, and how fans react if that is the case.

Acually you know that answer if that were the case:

What he means is, i will learn from Roglic, and as soon as i'm 1 second ahead in the Giro, i will not leave his wheel.

So we will applaud him for wheelsucking it, but looking at the vuelta, he also took over with Mas and from roglic when either of them attacked. so maybe we have the advantage of wanting Remco to wheelsuck but need to curse him when he doesn't :/

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Please tell me more about my biases and how you don't have your own. I'm in desperate need of acknowledging them.

1. Someone chasing at a given moment doesn't prove he's stronger than one who is left behind. Soler was stronger at that point and then faded. This would happen even if UAE didn't chase, as the whole grupetto of favourites were doing that. And Almeida has been known for a style of not giving in to sudden burst of acceleralation.

That goes for your lame "point".

2. Why is it a good idea to leapfrog a team mate? Why is Soler constantly entitled to pursue his goals despite always failing at them? Who was there to build for the Giro and why is a 4th place equal to a 3rd place if you're both building form and confidence for a GT when you're supposedly to be backed for your team in going for a podium?

I do no understand why you are always so angry about stupid stuff on these forum. You seem a very angry guy.

No point for UAE to chase roglic and evenepoel even if soler was dangling in between. Wasting energy with Majka and Yates so they are weak to respond to attacks from woods/landa/ciccone/Hindley which might threatened Almida.

Why is Almeida any better entitle to pursue his goals than Soler? Soler was stronger in this catalunya . Soler is too good to be a gregario, its his home race, and almida has consistently underperformed the last 18 months. For me it doesn't mean that Almida doesn't deserve support, he is strong guy also, but when Soler is away on that last stage you absolutely don't chase him unless you want to destroy team moral and commeradery.

Let Catalunyan soler get his podium in catalunya and then he is more happy guy who will help the team at itzulia or TDF.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Lol. I will eat crow if I am wrong on this one, but this seems delusional. I will not be surprised if Remco wins the stage and overall, but I will be stunned if he wins by "minutes."

Well, he did win by minutes in Poland and the WCC against no lesser opponents than here. Considering Jumbo doesn't look great, i don't know who would be doing the chasing to bail Roglic out. It's certainly not out of the question that he wins by a considerable gap.

That's what his past results show. It may be 1-2 min. That is enough for the overall

Not sure how Remco is as good on circuits as he is

Glad I don’t have to eat any crow today…

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Glad I don’t have to eat any crow today…

Good boy.

The point was if he would get a small gap, that nobody, not even Roglic would be able to close it. And Jumbo well knew that as well or Roglic wouldn't have been on his wheel all day and all week. As you could see, on just the short time after dropping Soler, they (primarily Evenepoel) opened up a gap of over 50s. If he had been able to go solo even sooner, he would have gone even harder and could well have won by over a minute. I don't understand why he didn't attack at the moment the break was caught at the top of the climb, as he could have used that chaos to perhaps get a somewhat bigger gap, which he needed to get Roglic in trouble.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Well, while i agree Soler is a loose canon, who offers very little added value as an actual teammate, if Soler is not deemed allowed to fight for his GC here and leapfrog Almeida, how come Almeida was deemed to be entitled to leapfrog Evenepoel in stage 11 of the 2021 Giro, when Evenepoel was 2nd in GC at only a few seconds from Bernal, while Almeida at that moment was 6 minutes down in GC? Weren't you one of the people who said that Almeida should not have waited for his (much) better placed teammate? Then why should Soler?

The whole argument is based on the idea that if a team mate can, he ought to (attack, distance) and in the process leapfrog a team mate.

While I agree with the argument of race dynamics having the last word, it's important to notice if that is something that the race is saying or if it is just lack or a too loose/soft DS strategical thinking. This last one seems to be the case with UAE in every race and I imagine it's not one that spreads a good team environment.

The same people here in the Forum that are complayning on why UAE shouldn't have chased Soler are 1) also the ones that recognize how in other occasions of Volta a Catalunya UAE didn't have a clear strategy (so why all of a sudden should they have one now?) and 2) completely miss the mark that Soler faded. He didn't have the legs notwithstanding that UAE did a couple of rounds.

 

[noob]

I do no understand why you are always so angry about stupid stuff on these forum. You seem a very angry guy.

No point for UAE to chase roglic and evenepoel even if soler was dangling in between. Wasting energy with Majka and Yates so they are weak to respond to attacks from woods/landa/ciccone/Hindley which might threatened Almida.

Why is Almeida any better entitle to pursue his goals than Soler? Soler was stronger in this catalunya . Soler is too good to be a gregario, its his home race, and almida has consistently underperformed the last 18 months. For me it doesn't mean that Almida doesn't deserve support, he is strong guy also, but when Soler is away on that last stage you absolutely don't chase him unless you want to destroy team moral and commeradery.

Let Catalunyan soler get his podium in catalunya and then he is more happy guy who will help the team at itzulia or TDF.

Almeida closed attacks behind Soler until Soler was dropped. Then the team went behind Almeida instead of Soler. I think LR might be right here.

 

[Elos Anjos]

I do no understand why you are always so angry about stupid stuff on these forum. You seem a very angry guy.

No point for UAE to chase roglic and evenepoel even if soler was dangling in between. Wasting energy with Majka and Yates so they are weak to respond to attacks from woods/landa/ciccone/Hindley which might threatened Almida.

Why is Almeida any better entitle to pursue his goals than Soler? Soler was stronger in this catalunya . Soler is too good to be a gregario, its his home race, and almida has consistently underperformed the last 18 months. For me it doesn't mean that Almida doesn't deserve support, he is strong guy also, but when Soler is away on that last stage you absolutely don't chase him unless you want to destroy team moral and commeradery.

Let Catalunyan soler get his podium in catalunya and then he is more happy guy who will help the team at itzulia or TDF.

I'm trying to adress your points but you don't address mine. That makes discussion boring and pointless.

Almeida's 3rd place was just being put in jeopardy by Soler.
Soler was not stronger. You keep insisting in this point without any reasons. He faded. That's all he does. Fail. Even in the Tour he failed at helping Pogacar. He fails constantly because he doesn't know himself as a rider. Clownish show-offs are his trademark.
Concluding that UAE took 3rd place from Soler is intellectually dishonest.
The point that "Almeida has underperformed in the last 18 months" must take into account that he missed a likely podium or at least a 4th place in the Giro due to covid.
Almeida is more entitled to pursue his goals than Soler. Of course he is. Because he is much better than Soler as stated by early results. That's what results do: they order riders and give them their place in a team. And because he is building form and confidence for the Giro and hence should have his team back-up.

And finally.

View: https://youtu.be/_Qq6dQwLh1s

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

The whole argument is based on the idea that if a team mate can, he ought to (attack, distance) and in the process leapfrog a team mate.

While I agree with the argument of race dynamics having the last word, it's important to notice if that is something that the race is saying or if it is just lack or a too loose/soft DS strategical thinking. This last one seems to be the case with UAE in every race and I imagine it's not one that spreads a good team environment.

The same people here in the Forum that are complayning on why UAE shouldn't have chased Soler are 1) also the ones that recognize how in other occasions of Volta a Catalunya UAE didn't have a clear strategy (so why all of a sudden should they have one now?) and 2) completely miss the mark that Soler faded. He didn't have the legs notwithstanding that UAE did a couple of rounds.

If he didn't have the legs, why did Yates and Almeida have to chase? Evenepoel attacked, Roglic followed, this was a battle for GC. That means GC riders should try to follow if they could. Soler was able to follow, Almeida wasn't. The fact that Soler got dropped later, did not change the situation for UAE and should not have made them chase as there were no other riders to catch and the top 2 in GC were long gone. They still would be 3 and 4 in GC, just the other way around. That means Yates and Almeida started chasing a teammate solely for Almeida's own benefit. You claim Soler was fading, well it doesn't matter, Almeida still had no other reason to chase a teammate but his own GC place. Would Soler have nearly been brought back if UAE didn't chase him, or might he have leapfrogged Almeida? If not, then there was even less reason to chase.

 

[Elos Anjos]

If he didn't have the legs, why did Yates and Almeida have to chase? Evenepoel attacked, Roglic followed, this was a battle for GC. That means GC riders should try to follow if they could. Soler was able to follow, Almeida wasn't. The fact that Soler got dropped later, did not change the situation for UAE and should not have made them chase as there were no other riders to catch and the top 2 in GC were long gone. They still would be 3 and 4 in GC, just the other way around. That means Yates and Almeida started chasing a teammate solely for Almeida's own benefit. You claim Soler was fading, well it doesn't matter, Almeida still had no other reason to chase a teammate but his own GC place.

If we acknowledge that UAE doesn't have any well grounded tactics, the case is solved.
The gap between Soler and Landa was 15s. Before this stage, the gap between Soler and Almeida was 47s.
No way did UAE took out 42s on their own.

 

[noob]

If he didn't have the legs, why did Yates and Almeida have to chase? Evenepoel attacked, Roglic followed, this was a battle for GC. That means GC riders should try to follow if they could. Soler was able to follow, Almeida wasn't. The fact that Soler got dropped later, did not change the situation for UAE and should not have made them chase as there were no other riders to catch and the top 2 in GC were long gone. They still would be 3 and 4 in GC, just the other way around. That means Yates and Almeida started chasing a teammate solely for Almeida's own benefit. You claim Soler was fading, well it doesn't matter, Almeida still had no other reason to chase a teammate but his own GC place.

I think he was riding for his own GC place, or rather the DS told Yates to ride for Almeida GC place. I think it's much weirder that Yates rides for Almeida there than Almeida riding for himself.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I think he was riding for his own GC place, or rather the DS told Yates to ride for Almeida GC place. I think it's much weirder that Yates rides for Almeida there than Almeida riding for himself.

Either way, today Soler did nothing wrong, and UAE had no reason to chase him.
That doesn't mean he didn't mess up in previous stages. And i also wouldn't want him as a teammate when going for GC.

 

[noob]

Either way, today Soler did nothing wrong, and UAE had no reason to chase him.
That doesn't mean he didn't mess up in previous stages. And i also wouldn't want him as a teammate when going for GC.

I absolutely agree with that! Soler didn't do anything wrong today whatsoever. He was good!

 

[groogster]

Either way, today Soler did nothing wrong, and UAE had no reason to chase him.
That doesn't mean he didn't mess up in previous stages. And i also wouldn't want him as a teammate when going for GC.

I’m 100% with your view regarding this.

 

[Potomac]

using all my authority, I declare this edition of the race a great one

 

[noob]

I sort of like Horner take on Soler (from the comments, not from his videos). He thinks Soler has no bad intention whatsoever and that it's just his abilities that makes him mess up as he does. Physically he's strong, but tactically he's not bright at all.

 

[Divergence]

The only reason Yates was at the front was because Almeida's GC spot was in danger from Soler. There is no reason for UAE to ride if they do not care who gets 3rd and who gets 4th as long as it is their team.

 

[noob]

The only reason Yates was at the front was because Almeida's GC spot was in danger from Soler. There is no reason for UAE to ride if they do not care who gets 3rd and who gets 4th as long as it is their team.

Agree. So why did they?

 

[Divergence]

Agree. So why did they?

Hh, because they are a joke of a team, idk.
Edit: Probably they told Almeida he would be the leader so they kinda had to even though it was their own guy at the front. And Soler was told he had a free role, which he did, but he probably did not expect that it would be his own team chasing him down.

 

[SHAD0W93]

The only reason Yates was at the front was because Almeida's GC spot was in danger from Soler. There is no reason for UAE to ride if they do not care who gets 3rd and who gets 4th as long as it is their team.

Soler found out it’s not fun to be on Team Soler/Gadret.

 

[Nick2413]

I’m not a huge fan of letting nationality dictate which teammate gets to be on the podium. But UAE chasing down either rider - whether it had been Soler or Almeida out in front - doesn’t really make sense either. Both of them were clearly free to ride for themselves, so not either of their faults.

 

[noob]

Apart from entertainment value I don't understand why UAE tactics is so bad. I mean there must be a reason, no? In house DS fighting with eachother? Or like I said a couple of days ago; believing in competition to the extent you think it's the only thing that can create good results, IE ideology.

 

[noob]

Hh, because they are a joke of a team, idk.
Edit: Probably they told Almeida he would be the leader so they kinda had to even though it was their own guy at the front. And Soler was told he had a free role, which he did, but he probably did not expect that it would be his own team chasing him down.

If this was true it means they're not the free for all and hunger games everyone thinks they are.

If they told Almeida he'd be the leader it means everyone watching misunderstands the "free for all" "strategy".

 

[noob]

Soler found out it’s not fun to be on Team Soler/Gadret.

But Almeida is kind of also only on team Almeida just as Soler is on team Soler. Ayuso is on team Ayuso etc.