Volta Ciclista a Catalunya 21/03/2016 - 27/03/2016 2.UWT

[LaFlorecita]

But Alberto didn't need to attack to win, he needed to follow to win. He failed to follow. They are two different things.

PS the race is not yet over so Quintana has not yet "won".

 

[HelloDolly]

Re:

But Alberto didn't need to attack to win, he needed to follow to win. He failed to follow. They are two different things.

PS the race is not yet over so Quintana has not yet "won".

Might have been better if he did attack and cath them off gurad as following didn't work

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

Quintana is the rider a like the least among the top GT contenders. I don't know why. Maybe it will change in the future. But I have to give credit where credit is due. He showed today to the cycling world who is the best climber on the planet. Also congrats to De Gent for the win.

I kind of share the same feeling. I have to admit he is the best climber right now, but there is something about his riding style and inexpressive face that really puts me off.
I guess it has something to do with the fact that he looks kind of small compared to his bike. Not gracious at all. He is not match for Contador dancing on the pedals, that's for sure.
To the Quitana fans: hate me all you want, I rest my case. Mmmh that's the five pints talking

You can hardly talk about looking good on the bike with that avatar

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

And to all those 'know it alls' I argued with last night who said Dan Martin couldn't climb or wasn't a climber

Well he came home with Bardet & Froome...and ahead of Purito, Uran. Aru, Nieve ,Navarro, Pozzo and alot of other climbers or biased favourites on here who haven't won a thing

He can climb, but all those you listed, bar Navarro, are better climbers than him. One stage where he finished ahead of them, doesn't mean he's better. You got some serious names there!

Of course beating them in a climb lasting nearly 1h means nothing because... it means nothing

I believe the point being made is that in order to considered among the elite climbers one would have to exhibit this prowess in more than a couple of mountain stages in a week long stage race. Reputations are earned over the course of the three weeks of a grand tour when all of one's rivals are there at their peak.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Might have been better if he did attack and cath them off gurad as following didn't work

Yes, it is very easy to say that in hindsight I guess Alberto should have looked into his crystal ball and seen he would get dropped in the final km, and decide "ok, I have to catch them off guard so I'll attack with 15km to go"
Secondly, if he wasn't strong enough to follow, he wasn't strong enough to attack. It's hardly rocket science.

 

[Angliru]

As Contador said, after responding to the multiple attacks, he needed time to recover, and that's when Quintana made his move. Contador couldn't respond immediately and by the time he did, Quintana was long gone. Quintana's attack was perfectly timed and he had the strength to finish it off.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

And to all those 'know it alls' I argued with last night who said Dan Martin couldn't climb or wasn't a climber

Well he came home with Bardet & Froome...and ahead of Purito, Uran. Aru, Nieve ,Navarro, Pozzo and alot of other climbers or biased favourites on here who haven't won a thing

He can climb, but all those you listed, bar Navarro, are better climbers than him. One stage where he finished ahead of them, doesn't mean he's better. You got some serious names there!

Of course beating them in a climb lasting nearly 1h means nothing because... it means nothing

I believe the point being made is that in order to considered among the elite climbers one would have to exhibit this prowess in more than a couple of mountain stages in a week long stage race. Reputations are earned over the course of the three weeks of a grand tour when all of one's rivals are there at their peak.

That's how you get a reputation as a GC man. It shouldn't be how you get a reputation as a climber. Martin has won more MTFs and other climbing stages than pretty much everyone on that list, bar Froome. In fact Nieve is similar, his rep as a climber doesn't rest on his GC performances.

 

[HelloDolly]

Re: Re:

Might have been better if he did attack and cath them off gurad as following didn't work

Yes, it is very easy to say that in hindsight I guess Alberto should have looked into his crystal ball and seen he would get dropped in the final km, and decide "ok, I have to catch them off guard so I'll attack with 15km to go"
Secondly, if he wasn't strong enough to follow, he wasn't strong enough to attack. It's hardly rocket science.

But you don't make assertions based on hindsight?
Christ how else are you supposed to make assertions

Secondly in alot of races the strongest doens't always win...sometimes it is tactics but since Contador and you are the best at this I guess sitting on wheels must have been the right tactic
And here is another for good measure since you use them so liberally

 

[SeriousSam]

GC is how you get reputation as a climber because climbing is the most important ability in GC contests. If you are a truly, truly, elite climber, you can and will target the Tour de France.

 

[MortiroloForever]

I don't like the way Movistar Team and Quintana do the races. They are always there, in front of the bunch taking control of everything happens, but they rarely take the initiative to go for the win.

Such a talented cyclist Quintana is and how poorly he usually rides. In my opinion, he lost last year's Tour de France for being extremely deffensive. He only made a winner attack when he saw that Fromme was barely struggling himself in the Alps.

Today's stage has been very disappointed for me. I believe that this kind of mountain stages are not the most appropiate scenario for the beginning of the season. Riders are not yet in their best form and they are generally very cautious to put themselves over the limit. Moreover, to win a Volta a Catalunya is not such a prestigious prize to put all the heart and soul on it. Consecuently, we have a race where biggest contenders wait untill the last kilometer. Minimum effort, the same goal. In my opinion, a parcours more stressfull (I'm thinking of stages, more or less, like País Vasco. And I'm pretty sure that the goegraphy of Catalunya gives the chance to do it) would be a breath of fresh air for la Volta.

Coming back to Quintana again, it is remarkable how easily he gets on in shape. I remember that three years ago, he arrived to "Le Grand Depart" of Le Tour de France directly from Colombia, without testing himself in any approximation race. And, now, in this Volta he is being competitive against riders who come from Paris-Niza, Vuelta a Andalucía or Tirreno-Adriatico. I say it again: what a talent.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re:

GC is how you get reputation as a climber because climbing is the most important ability in GC contests. If you are a truly, truly, elite climber, you can and will target the Tour de France.

Targeting the Tour is how you get a reputation nearly always as a "really elite" climber, but there are only three or four really elite climbers in the world and only one on the list of very good climbers we are comparing.

GC in a GT involves big mountain climbing but it also involves TTing, flat stages, wind, hills, consistency, recovery. It's a test of a rider's capacity to do a whole load of things. You can be a very good climber and never seriously trouble the top 5 of the Tour.

 

[HelloDolly]

Re: Re:

GC is how you get reputation as a climber because climbing is the most important ability in GC contests. If you are a truly, truly, elite climber, you can and will target the Tour de France.

Targeting the Tour is how you get a reputation nearly always as a "really elite" climber, but there are only three or four really elite climbers in the world and only one on the list of very good climbers we are comparing.

GC in a GT involves big mountain climbing but it also involves TTing, flat stages, wind, hills, consistency, recovery. It's a test of a rider's capacity to do a whole load of things. You can be a very good climber and never seriously trouble the top 5 of the Tour.

My argument wasn't whether Dan Martin was a GT rider but whether he was a good climber

He is a very good climber but that does not necessarily make him a GT contender becasue as we know there are issues like TTing which he is not good at , recovery which is a problem for him alot of the time becasue he gets ill easily , not having a strong team prior to this to depend on especially in the wind or on the cobbles....

His uncle , Bradley Wiggins, Cadel Evans, and so on and so on, won the Tour but were not the best climbers in the race

 

[ferryman]

Re: Re:

GC is how you get reputation as a climber because climbing is the most important ability in GC contests. If you are a truly, truly, elite climber, you can and will target the Tour de France.

Targeting the Tour is how you get a reputation nearly always as a "really elite" climber, but there are only three or four really elite climbers in the world and only one on the list of very good climbers we are comparing.

GC in a GT involves big mountain climbing but it also involves TTing, flat stages, wind, hills, consistency, recovery. It's a test of a rider's capacity to do a whole load of things. You can be a very good climber and never seriously trouble the top 5 of the Tour.

My argument wasn't whether Dan Martin was a GT rider but whether he was a good climber

He is a very good climber but that does not necessarily make him a GT contender becasue as we know there are issues like TTing which he is not good at , recovery which is a problem for him alot of the time becasue he gets ill easily , not having a strong team prior to this to depend on especially in the wind or on the cobbles....

His uncle , Bradley Wiggins, Cadel Evans, and so on and so on, won the Tour but were not the best climbers in the race

Your argument is correct. He is a good climber with punch on his day few can match on an easy day . He isn't a GT rider because he can't climb with the best over multiple cols when the hammer goes down. Take a break. Oh and he is Irish and doesn't ride for Sky, which may change your mind...

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

I don't like the way Movistar Team and Quintana do the races. They are always there, in front of the bunch taking control of everything happens, but they rarely take the initiative to go for the win.

Such a talented cyclist Quintana is and how poorly he usually rides. In my opinion, he lost last year's Tour de France for being extremely deffensive. He only made a winner attack when he saw that Fromme was barely struggling himself in the Alps.

Today's stage has been very disappointed for me. I believe that this kind of mountain stages are not the most appropiate scenario for the beginning of the season. Riders are not yet in their best form and they are generally very cautious to put themselves over the limit. Moreover, to win a Volta a Catalunya is not such a prestigious prize to put all the heart and soul on it. Consecuently, we have a race where biggest contenders wait untill the last kilometer. Minimum effort, the same goal. In my opinion, a parcours more stressfull (I'm thinking of stages, more or less, like País Vasco. And I'm pretty sure that the goegraphy of Catalunya gives the chance to do it) would be a breath of fresh air for la Volta.

Coming back to Quintana again, it is remarkable how easily he gets on in shape. I remember that three years ago, he arrived to "Le Grand Depart" of Le Tour de France directly from Colombia, without testing himself in any approximation race. And, now, in this Volta he is being competitive against riders who come from Paris-Niza, Vuelta a Andalucía or Tirreno-Adriatico. I say it again: what a talent.

I agree, those kind of mountain stages are relatively dull. Especially when the broadcasters are so amateurish.

 

[HelloDolly]

Re: Re:

GC is how you get reputation as a climber because climbing is the most important ability in GC contests. If you are a truly, truly, elite climber, you can and will target the Tour de France.

Targeting the Tour is how you get a reputation nearly always as a "really elite" climber, but there are only three or four really elite climbers in the world and only one on the list of very good climbers we are comparing.

GC in a GT involves big mountain climbing but it also involves TTing, flat stages, wind, hills, consistency, recovery. It's a test of a rider's capacity to do a whole load of things. You can be a very good climber and never seriously trouble the top 5 of the Tour.

My argument wasn't whether Dan Martin was a GT rider but whether he was a good climber

He is a very good climber but that does not necessarily make him a GT contender becasue as we know there are issues like TTing which he is not good at , recovery which is a problem for him alot of the time becasue he gets ill easily , not having a strong team prior to this to depend on especially in the wind or on the cobbles....

His uncle , Bradley Wiggins, Cadel Evans, and so on and so on, won the Tour but were not the best climbers in the race

Your argument is correct. He is a good climber with punch on his day few can match on an easy day . He isn't a GT rider because he can't climb with the best over multiple cols when the hammer goes down. Take a break. Oh and he is Irish and doesn't ride for Sky, which may change your mind...

What do you mean take a break ? ...bet you don't tell the Contador fans to take a break with thousands and thousands of much the same comments over and over again..

Secondly what Dan beign Irish has to do with anything I don't know...he is from Birmingham where the population has large Irish connections
And riding for team SKY ?

You are showing your bias I am afraid

 

[Scarponi]

Re: Re:

GC is how you get reputation as a climber because climbing is the most important ability in GC contests. If you are a truly, truly, elite climber, you can and will target the Tour de France.

Targeting the Tour is how you get a reputation nearly always as a "really elite" climber, but there are only three or four really elite climbers in the world and only one on the list of very good climbers we are comparing.

GC in a GT involves big mountain climbing but it also involves TTing, flat stages, wind, hills, consistency, recovery. It's a test of a rider's capacity to do a whole load of things. You can be a very good climber and never seriously trouble the top 5 of the Tour.

My argument wasn't whether Dan Martin was a GT rider but whether he was a good climber

He is a very good climber but that does not necessarily make him a GT contender becasue as we know there are issues like TTing which he is not good at , recovery which is a problem for him alot of the time becasue he gets ill easily , not having a strong team prior to this to depend on especially in the wind or on the cobbles....

His uncle , Bradley Wiggins, Cadel Evans, and so on and so on, won the Tour but were not the best climbers in the race

Though Evans and Wiggins were the second best climbers in their races which is a long way from being the 8th best climber

 

[rm7]

HelloDolly

Just admit you're a bit wrong about Martin. I think that a lot of people have no problem calling him a decent climber with an excellent finish, but he's more of a hilly/pencheur type of guy.

You talked yesterday like Contador was gonna be in a direct battle with Dan Martin. You was wrong, deal with it. All people was saying was that Dan Martin will be dropped somehow when the race real begins, and that's what happened.

Dan Martin is a decent climber on his day, not more. But it's no shame, because he have a lot of other excellent attributes. But if the riders were equally in form on a HC climb, he wouldn't touch any of those guys bar Navarro, and maybe Nieve and Pozzo on some days.

 

[movingtarget]

Dan Martin is a very good climber but not on the HC climbs in GTs and he seems to be strong over a week but not three weeks. Not many riders are strong over three weeks. It's an elite club. Good to see De Gendt back in winning form. The Giro podium seems to be a long time ago now. From looking at the early season races so far we could be in for a very good Tour in July.

 

[HelloDolly]

Re:

HelloDolly

Just admit you're a bit wrong about Martin. I think that a lot of people have no problem calling him a decent climber with an excellent finish, but he's more of a hilly/pencheur type of guy.

You talked yesterday like Contador was gonna be in a direct battle with Dan Martin. You was wrong, deal with it. All people was saying was that Dan Martin will be dropped somehow when the race real begins, and that's what happened.

Dan Martin is a decent climber on his day, not more. But it's no shame, because he have a lot of other excellent attributes. But if the riders were equally in form on a HC climb, he wouldn't touch any of those guys bar Navarro, and maybe Nieve and Pozzo on some days.

No people said he was not a climber and dismissed him. I defended his ability and far from been proved wrong I was proved right He was dropped abit but no where near all those other climbers that have pages of comments dedicated to their wondrous climbing ability. He came home with Bardet & Froome. And he is in direct battle with Contador ...there are some seconds separating them after all the climbing. Maybe you can deal with that ..No shame in accepting it

Though Evans and Wiggins were the second best climbers in their races which is a long way from being the 8th best climber

Can I see the maths behind your estimation of 8th ...must have a few decimal places out as he is lying in fourth

I am arguing against how easily you dismissed him (well alot of you) and how well you big up people who don't deliver at all ..

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re: Re:

GC in a GT involves big mountain climbing but it also involves TTing, flat stages, wind, hills, consistency, recovery. It's a test of a rider's capacity to do a whole load of things. You can be a very good climber and never seriously trouble the top 5 of the Tour.

Not as true as it used to be. Individual time trials in GTs aren't as long as they were a couple of decades ago, plus team time trials are now either much shorter or time gaps between teams are capped.

Life is much easier for pure climbers nowadays.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Secondly in alot of races the strongest doens't always win...sometimes it is tactics but since Contador and you are the best at this I guess sitting on wheels must have been the right tactic
And here is another for good measure since you use them so liberally

Exactly, if you feel your legs are a bit weak, and you don't think you are strong enough to ride away from everyone, and you already have a lead in the GC on all riders still in the group, the best tactic is not to try and blow yourself up, but to follow your main rivals.

 

[rick james]

Re: Re:

GC is how you get reputation as a climber because climbing is the most important ability in GC contests. If you are a truly, truly, elite climber, you can and will target the Tour de France.

Targeting the Tour is how you get a reputation nearly always as a "really elite" climber, but there are only three or four really elite climbers in the world and only one on the list of very good climbers we are comparing.

GC in a GT involves big mountain climbing but it also involves TTing, flat stages, wind, hills, consistency, recovery. It's a test of a rider's capacity to do a whole load of things. You can be a very good climber and never seriously trouble the top 5 of the Tour.

My argument wasn't whether Dan Martin was a GT rider but whether he was a good climber

He is a very good climber but that does not necessarily make him a GT contender becasue as we know there are issues like TTing which he is not good at , recovery which is a problem for him alot of the time becasue he gets ill easily , not having a strong team prior to this to depend on especially in the wind or on the cobbles....

His uncle , Bradley Wiggins, Cadel Evans, and so on and so on, won the Tour but were not the best climbers in the race

Your argument is correct. He is a good climber with punch on his day few can match on an easy day . He isn't a GT rider because he can't climb with the best over multiple cols when the hammer goes down. Take a break. Oh and he is Irish and doesn't ride for Sky, which may change your mind...

Very poor from you, bringing nationally into it

 

[dacooley]

according to some invisible forum legend, british fans that support their team (sky) are considered to be newcomers -)

 

[the asian]

People here are seriously under estimating Dan Martin's climbing abilities.

He is an explosive climber rather than a mere puncheur and his inability to win GT's is due to his very poor recovery as well as his poor Time Trialling.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I can't wait for more fights between Quintana and Contador. Neither can I wait for more fights between HelloDolly and LF. Bring July on!