Vuelta 2018 stage 15:Ribera del Arriba - Lagos de Covadonga

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

To me it looks like there is no clear communication within Movistar. Both, Valverde and Quintana don't ride against each other, yet they don't ride to maximise the chance for one of them winning. When Valverde is in the group he rides from the front, when he is dropped Quintana looks uncertain about wether he should ride on. One of them should ride for the other or it will be very difficult for them.. Maybe one of them has to lose a lot of time for the other one to be the clear leader.

They are racing two different races. Quintana is racing basically with the support of the team except for Valverde. Valverde is racing his own race with no support.

Carapaz's support for Valverde while leaving Quintana behind yesterday makes that difficult to sustain.

Well that's what it was supposed to be. Maybe Carapaz decided he was going to help whoever was stronger? Of course this is Movistar and no one has been able to figure out what they are doing pretty much this entire season. So there's that as well.

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

My suspicion is Porte has spat the dummy because he was forced to ride the Vuelta - There is no way his form can be that bad.

What evidence is there for that ? He had to ride for the Worlds, he needed the racing.

 

[gregrowlerson]

So much dislike for a rider in 3rd place overall, after having already finished the Tour riding for GC and crashing in the third week. Baffling.

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

A great win by Pinot. It’s a pity he’s not in real GC contention.

Entertaining stuff from Yates and Lopez. Often when it’s clear there’s not much between the best climbers, things settle down into a somewhat turgid group ride, but those two kept attacking each other and Quintana, over and over again. As for Quintana, the way he responded to those attacks makes it hard to believe that he just didn’t have the capacity to be aggressive. Maybe he thinks he can put Yates away in the third week and Superman will die in the ITT, maybe he’s too defensive for his own good, maybe he truly was dead.

That's leaving out Valverde who is still in the middle of this and a better TTer than Quintana. Also of the 3 climbing stages left only 1 is not very good for Valverde and we already saw in week 2 his not good stage he didn't shed that much time.

They may be wrong, but I don’t think any of Quintana, Lopez or Yates perceive Valverde as a first tier rival. They will be aware that Kruijswijk dragged him back after he was dropped today.

Depending on how much time Quintana loses in the ITT he may have no choice but to understand that Valverde is now who Movistar is riding for.

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

To me it looks like there is no clear communication within Movistar. Both, Valverde and Quintana don't ride against each other, yet they don't ride to maximise the chance for one of them winning. When Valverde is in the group he rides from the front, when he is dropped Quintana looks uncertain about wether he should ride on. One of them should ride for the other or it will be very difficult for them.. Maybe one of them has to lose a lot of time for the other one to be the clear leader.

They are racing two different races. Quintana is racing basically with the support of the team except for Valverde. Valverde is racing his own race with no support.

Carapaz's support for Valverde while leaving Quintana behind yesterday makes that difficult to sustain.

That was the move in Quintana's favor. Valverde up front should make Yates nervous, and force him to bridge later with Quintana on his wheel, which is exactly what happened.

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

A great win by Pinot. It’s a pity he’s not in real GC contention.

Entertaining stuff from Yates and Lopez. Often when it’s clear there’s not much between the best climbers, things settle down into a somewhat turgid group ride, but those two kept attacking each other and Quintana, over and over again. As for Quintana, the way he responded to those attacks makes it hard to believe that he just didn’t have the capacity to be aggressive. Maybe he thinks he can put Yates away in the third week and Superman will die in the ITT, maybe he’s too defensive for his own good, maybe he truly was dead.

That's leaving out Valverde who is still in the middle of this and a better TTer than Quintana. Also of the 3 climbing stages left only 1 is not very good for Valverde and we already saw in week 2 his not good stage he didn't shed that much time.

They may be wrong, but I don’t think any of Quintana, Lopez or Yates perceive Valverde as a first tier rival. They will be aware that Kruijswijk dragged him back after he was dropped today.

Well, judging by Yates reactions yesterday, during the race and after, I would say he perceives Valverde as a 1st tier indeed, cause he constantly looked where Valverde is when he was dropped with Kruijswijk and was upping the pace repeatedly. And after the race he said that the most dangerous rival with the upcoming TT could be exactly Valverde.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

my 2¢
It's Valverde's turn to win his sunset Vuelta.
Quintana respects that.
Last thing he wants to do is drag Yates up and away from Valverde.
If he can't be sure of a clean escape
Nairo just drops back and haggles.

 

[rick james]

Quintana respects Valverde.....can’t see that

 

[Blanco]

Re:

Quintana respects Valverde.....can’t see that

Me neither, but I think after yesterday that Valverde is done with Quintana, he's not going to help him anymore at this Vuelta...

 

[mariposa]

Re:

So much dislike for a rider in 3rd place overall, after having already finished the Tour riding for GC and crashing in the third week. Baffling.

Completely agree. Baffling. Still who really cares what people in forums think or say.

 

[Carols]

Re:

So much dislike for a rider in 3rd place overall, after having already finished the Tour riding for GC and crashing in the third week. Baffling.

Baffling? This forum is filled with complainers

As Nairo says :“The critics don’t hurt me, but sometimes the legs do. For this reason, I didn’t make attacks. I am not all-powerful and when there isn’t any more strength, I am not superior to the others."

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Re:

Quintana respects Valverde.....can’t see that

Me neither, but I think after yesterday that Valverde is done with Quintana, he's not going to help him anymore at this Vuelta...

When I hear Valverde and Quintana talking I don't see any issues between them at all. They are riding their own race without hurting the other chances.

I think they are fine and they have been riding like this for a long time now.

 

[del1962]

Any comparisons of time with previous editions of this climb?

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

Any comparisons of time with previous editions of this climb?

http://www.climbing-records.com

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

Any comparisons of time with previous editions of this climb?

http://www.climbing-records.com

Cheers

Pinot close to NQ's 2016 time

 

[Sciatic]

Re: Re:

So much dislike for a rider in 3rd place overall, after having already finished the Tour riding for GC and crashing in the third week. Baffling.

Completely agree. Baffling. Still who really cares what people in forums think or say.

Sometimes it's hard not to read racism into some of the anti-nairo lambasts, although I will admit it was frustrating watching him on Sunday, but more because I couldn't really grasp what was going on. On the whole though, I assume (but obviously cannot confirm) that most of the over-the-top criticisms come from people projecting onto Nairo (or any given rider) their internal biases about what makes a "worthy" rider or even a "good" person. All of which I wish people would keep out of the race threads. Maybe I need to start a separate thread to plead my case

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

So much dislike for a rider in 3rd place overall, after having already finished the Tour riding for GC and crashing in the third week. Baffling.

Completely agree. Baffling. Still who really cares what people in forums think or say.

Sometimes it's hard not to read racism into some of the anti-nairo lambasts, although I will admit it was frustrating watching him on Sunday, but more because I couldn't really grasp what was going on. On the whole though, I assume (but obviously cannot confirm) that most of the over-the-top criticisms come from people projecting onto Nairo (or any given rider) their internal biases about what makes a "worthy" rider or even a "good" person. All of which I wish people would keep out of the race threads. Maybe I need to start a separate thread to plead my case

Hold on my friend. That's a very serious accusation here. And I trust the mods to do their work if anything inappropriate is written. On the contrary, I think that many embraced Quintana as the second coming of Lucho Herrera, a fantastic rider. Most here want him to do well.

But like many wanted Claudy (and others i.e. Fons) to be the next Merckx, Pinot/Bardet to be the next Badger, the backlash is merciless. For Quintana, he was the one saving us from the evil Sky Empire. Expectations...

Nairo got hyped-up, hasn't quite delivered. At the '13 TdF, Froome goes berserk (and Netserk ), the public didn't buy it, and the next thing that we saw was Nairo making up a little time, like my Tibopino did yesterday, given some leeway. And many took it at face value. Same thing in '15, the AdH attack that Dawg controlled the entire time.

I saw the Vuelta win over Froome with a more aggressive approach as a new beginning, believed again, but old habits die hard. I would agree with you that some are pouncing on him, very hard, and it's because of the expectations and Quintana's failure to be what these fans want him to be. That's not his fault. Like every single pro-rider, he puts his body through torture, something that most "fans" can't comprehend.

People wanted more from him. Columbian cyclists gibe that exotic perception, spice, just like Brazilians have in football. Well, HAD in football. Calculations, defensive style, that kind of kills the myth and you get massacred by Froome or Germany.

I like Quintana. But he has no spice, he's no Contador.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

So much dislike for a rider in 3rd place overall, after having already finished the Tour riding for GC and crashing in the third week. Baffling.

Completely agree. Baffling. Still who really cares what people in forums think or say.

Sometimes it's hard not to read racism into some of the anti-nairo lambasts, although I will admit it was frustrating watching him on Sunday, but more because I couldn't really grasp what was going on. On the whole though, I assume (but obviously cannot confirm) that most of the over-the-top criticisms come from people projecting onto Nairo (or any given rider) their internal biases about what makes a "worthy" rider or even a "good" person. All of which I wish people would keep out of the race threads. Maybe I need to start a separate thread to plead my case

Hold on my friend. That's a very serious accusation here. And I trust the mods to do their work if anything inappropriate is written. On the contrary, I think that many embraced Quintana as the second coming of Lucho Herrera, a fantastic rider. Most here want him to do well.

But like many wanted Claudy (and others i.e. Fons) to be the next Merckx, Pinot/Bardet to be the next Badger, the backlash is merciless. For Quintana, he was the one saving us from the evil Sky Empire. Expectations...

Nairo got hyped-up, hasn't quite delivered. At the '13 TdF, Froome goes berserk (and Netserk ), the public didn't buy it, and the next thing that we saw was Nairo making up a little time, like my Tibopino did yesterday, given some leeway. And many took it at face value. Same thing in '15, the AdH attack that Dawg controlled the entire time.

I saw the Vuelta win over Froome with a more aggressive approach as a new beginning, believed again, but old habits die hard. I would agree with you that some are pouncing on him, very hard, and it's because of the expectations and Quintana's failure to be what these fans want him to be. That's not his fault. Like every single pro-rider, he puts his body through torture, something that most "fans" can't comprehend.

People wanted more from him. Columbian cyclists gibe that exotic perception, spice, just like Brazilians have in football. Well, HAD in football. Calculations, defensive style, that kind of kills the myth and you get massacred by Froome or Germany.

I like Quintana. But he has no spice, he's no Contador.

The trouble is fans remember Quintana pre 2016. As for his Vuelta win he can thank Contador for that as Froome would have been much closer without Contador's attack. The early challenges to Froome ran out of steam over the years and there has been no sign of Quintana improving in the Tour.

 

[rick james]

Re: Re:

So much dislike for a rider in 3rd place overall, after having already finished the Tour riding for GC and crashing in the third week. Baffling.

Completely agree. Baffling. Still who really cares what people in forums think or say.

Sometimes it's hard not to read racism into some of the anti-nairo lambasts, although I will admit it was frustrating watching him on Sunday, but more because I couldn't really grasp what was going on. On the whole though, I assume (but obviously cannot confirm) that most of the over-the-top criticisms come from people projecting onto Nairo (or any given rider) their internal biases about what makes a "worthy" rider or even a "good" person. All of which I wish people would keep out of the race threads. Maybe I need to start a separate thread to plead my case

 

[mariposa]

Re: Re:

Quintana respects Valverde.....can’t see that

Me neither, but I think after yesterday that Valverde is done with Quintana, he's not going to help him anymore at this Vuelta...

When I hear Valverde and Quintana talking I don't see any issues between them at all. They are riding their own race without hurting the other chances.

I think they are fine and they have been riding like this for a long time now.

I agree. They are different characters who seem to get along just fine. People seem to like making up differences to suit their own agendas likes dislikes etc or so it seems to me.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Talk of racism is nonsense. I must admit that I don't consider Nairo very charismatic, which is important to me, and I suspect this may be due to his cultural background. He seems very reserved. But the most frustrating thing to me is his conservative and passive riding. I want to like him, which stems back from the days he seemed to be Froome's biggest challenger. But I just can't cheer for him when he's so frustrating to watch. I can't imagine how it must be for the fans. When he actually commits to an attack, he blows everyone out of the water. I wish he tried that more often.
I had to laugh Sunday when Yates got frustrated with Quintana, and Quintana immediately signaled to Valverde to get to the front. Reminds me of when someone looks at Quintana to take a pull, he quickly looks over his shoulder trying to find someone else

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

Talk of racism is nonsense. I must admit that I don't consider Nairo very charismatic, which is important to me, and I suspect this may be due to his cultural background. He seems very reserved. But the most frustrating thing to me is his conservative and passive riding. I want to like him, which stems back from the days he seemed to be Froome's biggest challenger. But I just can't cheer for him when he's so frustrating to watch. I can't imagine how it must be for the fans. When he actually commits to an attack, he blows everyone out of the water. I wish he tried that more often.
I had to laugh Sunday when Yates got frustrated with Quintana, and Quintana immediately signaled to Valverde to get to the front. Reminds me of when someone looks at Quintana to take a pull, he quickly looks over his shoulder trying to find someone else

Flor, you are right. It has been very frustrating for me for his passive riding. And there are one big reason for it: He just doesn't have it. He is truly on the limit. Which begs the second question, why doesn't he forget about GC (and lose time in the process) and just try to have more fun by attacking freely in the mountains? I prefer the second option. But it is hard for a guy like Quintana, with his talent, after podiuming and winning GT's to just give up like that. He is trying different ways and he is failing miserably for different reasons that we don't want to discuss here. And I even have a theory of what he did wrong this year which I explained in the other thread but let's not discuss that here.

Basically, soon he will be riding without the pressure of GC at this pace if he continues like this. But I think everyone prefers him like that. Because I think, different to what others think in here, he likes to attack when he has the strength. He has tried many times in the past. And some of the Spanish media have even suggested that for Nairo. Forget about the GC and have a bit more fun.

And about his personality, it is his cultural background why he behaves like this. He does not trust many people I tell you that. Very reserved person. I remember during the Ventoux stage in 2013 when he was 23 years old, the water bottles moto came to give him one when he was in the middle of the attack and almost grabbed the one that was handed to him, but instead in the middle of his exhaustion, took the time to go back and grab one from the back. The moto guy was like wtf!

Trust no one!

 

[slosada]

Re:

Talk of racism is nonsense. I must admit that I don't consider Nairo very charismatic, which is important to me, and I suspect this may be due to his cultural background. He seems very reserved. But the most frustrating thing to me is his conservative and passive riding. I want to like him, which stems back from the days he seemed to be Froome's biggest challenger. But I just can't cheer for him when he's so frustrating to watch. I can't imagine how it must be for the fans. When he actually commits to an attack, he blows everyone out of the water. I wish he tried that more often.
I had to laugh Sunday when Yates got frustrated with Quintana, and Quintana immediately signaled to Valverde to get to the front. Reminds me of when someone looks at Quintana to take a pull, he quickly looks over his shoulder trying to find someone else

Nope, his fans are dozed by the Colombian media, same as with a former president there. It's always someone else's fault. He's still the reincarnation of a deity on a bike.
The most common excuse is that MOV only rides for the team standings
The problem at the double was that "it planned by his team"
The problem at the TdF, was "the trio"
The problem at this Vuelta is that "he has to wait for Valverde" (????)

And Re: Yates, sure Quintana was stupid about not replying strongly to the race leader, he should have let Yates work instead of calling Valverde and allowing Yates to steal the bonus and put some time on him.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Thank god I don't live in Colombia then, I would lose my mind over that kind of nationalism.

 

[Escarabajo]

Valv Piti, I have seen it just as bad or worse in other countries. So usually nationalism happens almost everywhere.