Vuelta a España - Stage 12+1: Rincón de Soto - Burgos 196km

[stefrees]

I had a different link, sorry.

No worries

 

[Libertine Seguros]

From what I read it's not the fact that 2 rivals are working together as such, more so on the intermediate sprint weylandt and farrar both deliberately closed the door on cav. Consideing the cry baby antics of hushovd, garmin and a fair few others against cav/htc I don't think it's as straightforward as that. Some people will turn any news item to please themselves at times and distort the truth- 92% of the time on here I'd guess at

Considering some of the stuff HTC gets away with, or their fans seem to want them to get away with (the "Renshaw did nothing wrong" brigade for example), then c'est la vie when they get the same in return as they dish out. And as gs already said, maybe they should be shown the footage of Horner pacing van Garderen up Alpe d'Huez before they start shouting conspiracy at other riders.

 

[stefrees]

Considering some of the stuff HTC gets away with, or their fans seem to want them to get away with (the "Renshaw did nothing wrong" brigade for example), then c'est la vie when they get the same in return as they dish out. And as gs already said, maybe they should be shown the footage of Horner pacing van Garderen up Alpe d'Huez before they start shouting conspiracy at other riders.

I'm not really an htc fan as such anyway. But your illustrating my point (that I admit I never make very well on tinternet) is that if cav would have done this there'd be calls for him to be chucked out for irregular sprinting, but when it's done to him it's get on with it. For the record I'd prefer get on with it at all times and no one should ever be able to complain to try and get others into trouble (one thing that annoys me with football) and may the best man win. It's more me not liking garmin holy than thou in this instance to be honest

 

[Frosty]

Is there any video of said incident so we can judge for ourselves?

 

[tgsgirl]

Is there any video of said incident so we can judge for ourselves?

I think it was before the live feed.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I'm not really an htc fan as such anyway. But your illustrating my point (that I admit I never make very well on tinternet) is that if cav would have done this there'd be calls for him to be chucked out for irregular sprinting, but when it's done to him it's get on with it. For the record I'd prefer get on with it at all times and no one should ever be able to complain to try and get others into trouble (one thing that annoys me with football) and may the best man win. It's more me not liking garmin holy than thou in this instance to be honest

How am I illustrating your point? Your point is implying bias against Cavendish, my point is that Columbia sure dish out plenty of bullying in the set-up, so they shouldn't whine when they receive it.

I don't care much for whining in either case, but some fans want Cav punished for everything, others think HTC should be allowed to get away with anything shy of borrowing tactics from the Big Bos Man. A whole bunch of people thought Renshaw did nothing wrong when he was ejected from the Tour. But sometimes, the same people who accept Cav's complaints here are the same ones who protested against his being blamed for the crash in Switzerland.

And is there seriously any rule against collusion? After all, HTC sure benefited from collusion on Alpe d'Huez, so you can't be selective about what's acceptable and what isn't based on what's most favourable to you, whether you're a fan, a detractor or the team themselves.

 

[Mambo95]

What's interesting about a break away winning?

Most boring thing that can happen as the only reason why these guys ever win is because the peloton doesn't care about reeling them in.

Amen to that.

I always want the break to be caught in stage races. If the break succeeds then one of two things happens. a) about 5km out someone attacks and the others look at each other and let him win, or b) there's a really lame sprint won by the guy everyone said was the fastest two hours ago.

It only gets exciting in one of two rare cases: 1) The peloton misjudge it and only look like catching them in the last km - very rare - or 2) the escapees constantly attack and chase each other - hardly ever happens. Watch women's racing, it happens more there.

One the other hand there's nothing quite as fascinating and adrenaline fueled as the last 5km of a bunch sprint - and the possibility of seeing a master at work. The tactical battle is always intriguing, but I guess LS loves watching a couple of domestiques trying to work out when they're meant to start a sprint.

 

[salixcycling]

I didn't watch a single km of today's stage, still knew exactly what was going to happen, and it did. I dislike the very existence of stages like this as long as race-spoiling teams like HTC are around.

At least at this level HTC are fighting other top teams rather than like at the Tour of Britain or the Tour of Turkey. Jeez, it's like every race needs ISD at it. They're like the anti-HTC.

Libertine, do you seriously think that without HTC the breaks wouldn't get chased down? Other teams also have an interest in chasing down the breaks, as you can tell even without watching, and is very clearly evident when watching.

Your hatred (flat stages) is blinding you a little.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

So I guess, because that 5km is vaguely interesting (I don't find it particularly interesting most of the time), that means it's cool that HTC sit there with the break at 2 minutes all day. The break can go or the break can not go. But keeping it on the same leash all day = no counter attacks. Keeping it on the same leash = no dare-to-dream for the break. You may as well not bother and ride in formation to the finish, then have a play about for 5km. Or rather, you may as well make the race 5km long.

Flat stages are boring as hell anyway, but when HTC are in town, they're even worse because there isn't the slightest sliver of possibility of something new happening.

Then you get into the final 5k, and what's supposed to be the exciting part of the stage is a formality - especially when the team have sent Greipel and a full leadout train to the Tour of The Only Competition Being Italian ProConti Teams. That last 5k sure looks like a procession in those ones.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Libertine, do you seriously think that without HTC the breaks wouldn't get chased down? Other teams also have an interest in chasing down the breaks, as you can tell even without watching, and is very clearly evident whenwatching.

Your hatred (flat stages) is blinding you a little.

Sure, but other teams may not have the strength to sit on the front for 120km every day, so won't take over until the break has got a bit further up the road. The catch may still be inevitable, but when a break has 10 minutes to play with when the sprinters' teams come to the fore, there's always the temptation to think "oh, but what if?". HTC, so often, hold the break at 4 minutes or less the whole distance of the stage, so there isn't even the modicum of hope that something remotely unexpected can happen.

 

[Francois the Postman]

One went left, the other went right and they deliberately closed the door on me.

"closed the door"? He should have gone straight ahead then. Rider in front of him (maybe even his own lead-out man)? Well, no-one is under any obligation to leave a gap for Cavendish to move sideways into when he chooses.

If what he describes adds up to "they moved before me and picked a line and stuck to it, but by doing it to the left and right for me, it didn't leave a gap for me to go sideways as well, and get out of the wheel I picked", then that is perfectly ok by me.

Actually, it's bloody brilliant.

Should have picked a better wheel then, or made damn sure he wouldn't get boxed in by moving out of that wheel earlier.

I also applaud putting a train right next to a train (even on either side), so the lead-out men can't swing off and make room for the next guy (what Garmin tried to do pre head-**** in the TdF). Give them a new puzle to solve, in the heat of the battle. If you pick a great strategy and execute it to perfection, folk are perfectly entitled to pick legal race lines that interfere with it, or torpedo it completely.

 

[salixcycling]

Sure, but other teams may not have the strength to sit on the front for 120km every day, so won't take over until the break has got a bit further up the road. The catch may still be inevitable, but when a break has 10 minutes to play with when the sprinters' teams come to the fore, there's always the temptation to think "oh, but what if?". HTC, so often, hold the break at 4 minutes or less the whole distance of the stage, so there isn't even the modicum of hope that something remotely unexpected can happen.

I also find it very tedious when the break is held at a safe distance and you know full-well it is going to be reeled in at the correct time. I just don't see that it is always HTC doing this, but all that it is all of the teams that have an interest in the stage.

I have been watching a fair bit of the flat stages (excellent to have on while trying to work) and honestly haven't noticed HTC standing out as much as you seem to think.

OT, but a stage in the vuelta a burgos this year stood out because the break was caught early and then for 10K or so lots of riders tried to break out again

 

[Libertine Seguros]

OT, but a stage in the vuelta a burgos this year stood out because the break was caught early and then for 10K or so lots of riders tried to break out again

That's why they do it. Because if you catch the break too early, then you'll give other riders reason to counter-attack and then you have to chase those down as well, and they're fresh so require more effort to chase down. During the Tour it was always HTC on the front doing it, keeping the break close every day.

Here are the gaps between the breakaway and the usually HTC-led péloton at the intermediate sprints in early stages of the 2010 Tour:

3'09"
2'20"
2'35"
2'33"
1'51"
2'54"

That's nearly one third of the race, with the break kept under close wraps well before the finish. Often, that was close to the peak of the escape's advantage. But if they take them back too soon, then others will attack, so they keep them at that distance until it's time to catch them with about 5km to go.

 

[Boardslide]

Is there any video of said incident so we can judge for ourselves?

It was before the live feed and thats why the race officals didn't rule on it one way or another as they had no footage to look at, but the incident was registered.

 

[Francois the Postman]

That's why they do it. Because if you catch the break too early, then you'll give other riders reason to counter-attack and then you have to chase those down as well, and they're fresh so require more effort to chase down.

So, why do other teams not attempt fresh breakaways from 20k out, when the other early breakaway-for-the-day is also still out there? I never got why folk wait until that first lot is taken back. If they are doomed, why not treat the race as if they weren't there in the first place.

If controlled dangling is happening, things can go faster, but no sprint team wants that to happen at that point, as it tires them out. So make it happen!

Like you say, sprinter teams don't want to take them back early as they struggle more. We all know that sprinter teams can keep one tired lot dangling to perfection, but I would love to see how they cope with a rolling wave of attacks from teams that are quite happy to send a single rider to its grave over 180km. Might as well chuck in another 1 or two at 20k then and get a much better chance of succeeding because of it.

There have been a couple of races this year where things got good because some daft ****** decided to toss the unwritten rulebook full of established conventions out of the window.

 

[The Hitch]

So, why do other teams not attempt fresh breakaways from 20k out, when the other early breakaway-for-the-day is also still out there? I never got why folk wait until that first lot is taken back. If they are doomed, why not treat the race as if they weren't there in the first place.

If controlled dangling is happening, things can go faster, but no sprint team wants that to happen at that point, as it tires them out. So make it happen!

Like you say, sprinter teams don't want to take them back early as they struggle more. We all know that sprinter teams can keep one tired lot dangling to perfection, but I would love to see how they cope with a rolling wave of attacks from teams that are quite happy to send a single rider to its grave over 180km. Might as well chuck in another 1 or two at 20k then and get a much better chance of succeeding because of it.

There have been a couple of races this year where things got good because some daft ****** decided to toss the unwritten rulebook full of established conventions out of the window.

I think its usually because they dont get let go in the first place. Teams keep the pace high in the last 20 k so no one will attack. If someone attacks, Tony Martin will immediately be there to chase them down. I suppose they could try but they are likely to fail.

We do see these kind of attacks in Milan San Remo every year, and only Cancellara has really been strong enough to do it in recent years. Usually, any attack is caught within 30 seconds of launch.

 

[Francois the Postman]

I think its usually because they dont get let go in the first place. Teams keep the pace high in the last 20 k so no one will attack. If someone attacks, Tony Martin will immediately be there to chase them down. I suppose they could try but they are likely to fail.

We do see these kind of attacks in Milan San Remo every year, and only Cancellara has really been strong enough to do it in recent years. Usually, any attack is caught within 30 seconds of launch.

Aye, I agree the first one is unlikely to succeed. A bit like the break-away of the day. But if Martin is also sent out after #2, #3, there will be a point where teams will sit up and look around. They always do.

I know they keep the pace high, but not so high that they catch the breakaway up ahead early, as they don't want to control what happens then, even if they keep that same high speed from that points onwards. And they certainly don't want to go flat-out for a full 10 or 20k, just the last 3 or 4 thank you very much.

So why not make then happen earlier, as they obviously don't like it. And call me ignorant, the enemy of my enemy is my friend!

 

[kukiniloa]

Best leadout ever

Matthew Goss = BEST LEADOUT EVER

in caps even

 

[stefrees]

How am I illustrating your point? Your point is implying bias against Cavendish, my point is that Columbia sure dish out plenty of bullying in the set-up, so they shouldn't whine when they receive it.

I don't care much for whining in either case, but some fans want Cav punished for everything, others think HTC should be allowed to get away with anything shy of borrowing tactics from the Big Bos Man. A whole bunch of people thought Renshaw did nothing wrong when he was ejected from the Tour. But sometimes, the same people who accept Cav's complaints here are the same ones who protested against his being blamed for the crash in Switzerland.

And is there seriously any rule against collusion? After all, HTC sure benefited from collusion on Alpe d'Huez, so you can't be selective about what's acceptable and what isn't based on what's most favourable to you, whether you're a fan, a detractor or the team themselves.

Your pretty much acting in exactly the same way but in reverse against cav/htc And on this subject your never going to be able to discuss it so I'll leave it

 

[tgsgirl]

Matthew Goss = BEST LEADOUT EVER

in caps even

Yeah, he nailed TWO stages, I bet it's the first time anyone's ever did that.

 

[Neworld]

Cav,

Just ride your bike. You are fast, but your immaturity makes you sound like a punk. Some sprinters don't even have a lead-out man (look at all the years Robbie M won basically by himself).

Collusion or not, just ride.

NW