Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2021: Stage 9 (Puerto Lumbreras - Alto de Velefique, 188.0 km)

[perico]

He's never looked like winning a GT in his career and he hasn't made the top-4 on GC in the last three, so either:

• he's hit peak form for the first time in three years (highly unlikely)
• he's taken a significant jump at age 26 (very possible) of which there was no sign a month ago at the GT he was supposedly peaking for (not that likely)
• the competition is somewhat weaker than usual (only other option)

The fundamental thing with Mas is that he's been really consistent in the past 18 months, which definitely makes him the kind of rider you'd expect to profit from the field being below average. In the case of this Vuelta, Roglic has had a weird preparation due to him crashing out of the Tour, Bernal is very clearly below his best, and the other GC contenders have never won or almost won a GT either. Every rider in the top-10 bar Bernal is Mas' age or older, yet only four of them (Roglic, Bernal, Lopez and Mas himself) have made the top-6 of a GT in the past 5 years. Yates is the only other rider to ever have done so in his career. In other words, nothing about this Vuelta - neither the climbing times not the competition - suggests that the standard is high.

Can Mas ever win a GT, or at least look like doing so? If Geoghegan Hart and Hesjedal can do so, then yes, he can. If he does so in this third week, it will probably be more impressive than either of those performances. But will it happen by beating (or at least battling with) one of the best riders in the world who's in peak form? Highly unlikely. Which brings us back to the original, non-Mas-related point about the standard at this Vuelta.

You didn’t answer the question of how you are so privy to his development and peak? The whole 2020 season was basically shot for Movistar due to how they handled quarantine and isolation, and to me it looks like he misstimed his peak for the first part of this season.

Nobody knows how good he could be as nobody knows what he is capable of?

 

[Red Rick]

He's never looked like winning a GT in his career and he hasn't made the top-4 on GC in the last three, so either:

• he's hit peak form for the first time in three years (highly unlikely)
• he's taken a significant jump at age 26 (very possible) of which there was no sign a month ago at the GT he was supposedly peaking for (not that likely)
• the competition is somewhat weaker than usual (only other option)

The fundamental thing with Mas is that he's been really consistent in the past 18 months, which definitely makes him the kind of rider you'd expect to profit from the field being below average. In the case of this Vuelta, Roglic has had a weird preparation due to him crashing out of the Tour, Bernal is very clearly below his best, and the other GC contenders have never won or almost won a GT either. Every rider in the top-10 bar Bernal is Mas' age or older, yet only four of them (Roglic, Bernal, Lopez and Mas himself) have made the top-6 of a GT in the past 5 years. Yates is the only other rider to ever have done so in his career. In other words, nothing about this Vuelta - neither the climbing times not the competition - suggests that the standard is high.

Can Mas ever win a GT, or at least look like doing so? If Geoghegan Hart and Hesjedal can do so, then yes, he can. If he does so in this third week, it will probably be more impressive than either of those performances. But will it happen by beating (or at least battling with) one of the best riders in the world who's in peak form? Highly unlikely. Which brings us back to the original, non-Mas-related point about the standard at this Vuelta.

I don't think it's implausible Mas can make some improvement. Otherwise we might as well take a stretch and just use Jack Haig as a reference and claim none of these guys could make the top 10 in the Tour.

Mas was also 4th on Luz Ardiden in the Tour. There's quite a big gap between "average ceiling GT rider who's lucky to podium a weak Vuelta" and "new Contador" where current Mas can conceivably fit.

 

[JosefK]

Such a weak field. Just ignore the former TDF winner who targeted the race as well as the #1 ranked rider in the world and the one guy who could maybe beat Pogacar. Also ignore the numerous perennial Gc contenders.

Just ignore the news page hype of a Giro winner who was back to his best after bettering a career domestique. Only riders like that guy are allowed to be good. A young rider like Mas must never improve since he’s not the chosen one.

As long as it can explain the unfathomable event that Enric Mas might not have reached his ceiling by finishing 5th and 6th at the TDF. God forbid that he is more talented than some posters thought.

We know he won’t ever live up to the early hype of the next Contador, but please don’t let him perform well enough to give people false hope, because the forum knows he’s the Levi Leipheimer of the current peloton. Only Remco, a Columbian, or some random Ukrainian who won a couple of Dauphine stages are allowed to compete against the might of the Slovenians and be taken seriously.

Very spicy! I think it's a strong field in this Vuelta. If only Valverde hadn't crashed . . .

 

[Red Rick]

Guys I've figured out what happened to Landa

He switched places with Mikel Arteta. It all makes sense.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

I don't think it's implausible Mas can make some improvement. Otherwise we might as well take a stretch and just use Jack Haig as a reference and claim none of these guys could make the top 10 in the Tour.

Mas was also 4th on Luz Ardiden in the Tour. There's quite a big gap between "average ceiling GT rider who's lucky to podium a weak Vuelta" and "new Contador" where current Mas can conceivably fit.

There's also quite a big gap between fifth/sixth and second though, one that can't be explained solely by 'some improvement' (which I agree can have happened).

Mas' 4th place on Luz Ardiden is cherry-picking his best result of that race (just like using Haig as a reference would have been cherry-picking), and nothing out of the ordinary for someone whose normal level is fifth or sixth. I think showing that level over a sustained period of time is too high to argue a podium placement is a lucky fluke, but at the same time that result becomes much more likely when the field quality drops - I really can't see it happening in your average Tour.

You didn’t answer the question of how you are so privy to his development and peak? The whole 2020 season was basically shot for Movistar due to how they handled quarantine and isolation, and to me it looks like he misstimed his peak for the first part of this season.

Nobody knows how good he could be as nobody knows what he is capable of?

I've never claimed I know everything about Mas' development and peak, I've only argued that, based on the data we have, Mas being in second is a) something of an outlier, and b) probably related to (but not necessarily only due to) the level of competition, the reference to which was never intended as a knock on Mas in the first place...

 

[Carols]

He's never looked like winning a GT in his career and he hasn't made the top-4 on GC in the last three, so either:

• he's hit peak form for the first time in three years (highly unlikely)
• he's taken a significant jump at age 26 (very possible) of which there was no sign a month ago at the GT he was supposedly peaking for (not that likely)
• the competition is somewhat weaker than usual (only other option)

Every rider in the top-10 bar Bernal is Mas' age or older, yet only four of them (Roglic, Bernal, Lopez and Mas himself) have made the top-6 of a GT in the past 5 years. Yates is the only other rider to ever have done so in his career. In other words, nothing about this Vuelta - neither the climbing times not the competition - suggests that the standard is high.

Gee I could have sworn Carapaz and Aru both won GTs, Lopez podiumed one, Bardet podiumed 2. Landa podiumed one. You might want to check the start list again.

 

[Red Rick]

There's also quite a big gap between fifth/sixth and second though, one that can't be explained solely by 'some improvement' (which I agree can have happened).

Mas' 4th place on Luz Ardiden is cherry-picking his best result of that race (just like using Haig as a reference would have been cherry-picking), and nothing out of the ordinary for someone whose normal level is fifth or sixth. I think showing that level over a sustained period of time is too high to argue a podium placement is a lucky fluke, but at the same time that result becomes much more likely when the field quality drops - I really can't see it happening in your average Tour.

Tours can absolutely have weaker fields, and especially below the top 3/4 the fields can look average enough. Let's say I would feel dirty claiming O Connor or Kelderman are better GC riders than a MAL.

 

[Escarabajo]

Mas in a post interview said that Roglic was slowing them down during his pulls. Go figure.
That means that Roglic wasn't that strong or was playing weak with Movistar.

I hope we get a good race for the win the remaining two weeks!

BTW, in the Colombian podcasts they were full of kudos and congratulations to Movistar. And especially to Mas. However they are afraid of Movistar signing in blood the 2nd and 3rd, as I said before. This last comment came from a Spanish reporter.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Gee I could have sworn Carapaz and Aru both won GTs, Lopez podiumed one, Bardet podiumed 2. Landa podiumed one. You might want to check the start list again.

'In the top 10'. Riders who aren't in GC shape don't really matter for field quality.

 

[perico]

Well that’s 2 stages where they have broken the record on the climb. Picón Blanco had Mas breaking Wonder Boy’s record and today they broke Gesink.

 

[Carols]

'In the top 10'. Riders who aren't in GC shape don't really matter for field quality.

LOL just write off all those guys because they don't fit your BIAS.

 

[Tricycle Rider]

Completely from the left field - each time I see/hear Enric Mas being mentioned it makes me think of Enrique Mas from the Golden Girls. Anyone else?



Okay, as you were.

 

[IndurainsTdF1994]

¿Bernal will break already tomorrow and we’ll pretend it’s not a procession to Santiago due to - Valvemas?

Two days early...

 

[Pinot's goat]

LOL just write off all those guys because they don't fit your BIAS.

Using Bardet, Landa and Aru to calculate the quality of field in this grand tour is like using Froome, Nibali and Quintana for TDF 2021. It's not bias, it's common sense.

 

[Carols]

Using Bardet, Landa and Aru to calculate the quality of field in this grand tour is like using Froome, Nibali and Quintana for TDF 2021. It's not bias, it's common sense.

Yet they were in the poll as possible winners, while Mas wasnt. It's easy to say they don't belong 9 days later after they've failed.

 

[Rackham]

It's funny reading comments about the "quality of the field" or "standard" of this Vuelta.

It seems like a recurring conversation, i.e. Giro 2020? Check. Giro 2021? Check (Caruso & S. Yates on the podium), Tour 2021? Check (no opposition for Pogacar). And now the Vuelta 2021.

That's 4 GT's in less than one year which some people have labelled "weak fields". News flash: there are no other riders who're missing (Pog maybe? But doing 2 GT's in quick succession is never easy), there are no better riders, there are no "stronger fields". This is pro cycling in 2021 & considering average speeds gets smashed & ascent times get beaten in all these GT's, they seem pretty damned strong based on a closer look at the actual performances.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Yet they were in the poll as possible winners, while Mas wasnt. It's easy to say they don't belong 8 days later after they've failed.

1. I didn't make the poll, Mas would have been in it ahead of Bardet and Aru if I had
2. Bardet crashed out of GC, that hardly qualifies as failure...

 

[Carols]

It's funny reading comments about the "quality of the field" or "standard" of this Vuelta.

It seems like a recurring conversation, i.e. Giro 2020? Check. Giro 2021? Check (Caruso & S. Yates on the podium), Tour 2021? Check (no opposition for Pogacar). And now the Vuelta 2021.

That's 4 GT's in less than one year which some people have labelled "weak fields". News flash: there are no other riders who're missing (Pog maybe? But doing 2 GT's in quick succession is never easy), there are no better riders, there are no "stronger fields". This is pro cycling in 2021 & considering average speeds gets smashed & ascent times get beaten in all these GT's, they seem pretty damned strong based on a closer look at the actual performances.

Exactly!! Quite a few posts back I said the only Guy Missing is Pogi. Who else is missing?
G? Yeah right.

 

[bill1109]

Mas in a post interview said that Roglic was slowing them down during his pulls. Go figure.
That means that Roglic wasn't that strong or was playing weak with Movistar.

I hope we get a good race for the win the remaining two weeks!

BTW, in the Colombian podcasts they were full of kudos and congratulations to Movistar. And especially to Mas. However they are afraid of Movistar signing in blood the 2nd and 3rd, as I said before. This last comment came from a Spanish reporter.

"I don't think I ever had Roglic up against the ropes, we were both going flat out. He's the leader, he's under no obligation to work with me, but even so, he collaborated well and it helped us both," Mas explained. "I'm just happy, at the very least, to be at the same level as Roglic today on the climb."
If the Velefique duel ended in a narrow victory for Roglic, Mas has no intention of settling for the podium in the GC battle.
"We didn't have him up against the cords, as I said." he commented, "But someday we'll try."

 

[bill1109]

"I don't think I ever had Roglic up against the ropes, we were both going flat out. He's the leader, he's under no obligation to work with me, but even so, he collaborated well and it helped us both," Mas explained. "I'm just happy, at the very least, to be at the same level as Roglic today on the climb."
If the Velefique duel ended in a narrow victory for Roglic, Mas has no intention of settling for the podium in the GC battle.
"We didn't have him up against the cords, as I said." he commented, "But someday we'll try."

not sure what interview you were watching

 

[Sciatic]

It's funny reading comments about the "quality of the field" or "standard" of this Vuelta.

It seems like a recurring conversation, i.e. Giro 2020? Check. Giro 2021? Check (Caruso & S. Yates on the podium), Tour 2021? Check (no opposition for Pogacar). And now the Vuelta 2021.

That's 4 GT's in less than one year which some people have labelled "weak fields". News flash: there are no other riders who're missing (Pog maybe? But doing 2 GT's in quick succession is never easy), there are no better riders, there are no "stronger fields". This is pro cycling in 2021 & considering average speeds gets smashed & ascent times get beaten in all these GT's, they seem pretty damned strong based on a closer look at the actual performances.

Really good point. Sometimes people (out there in the world not just this forum) have in mind the ideal (or the best they’ve seen) and then use that as a baseline for comparisons, the result of which events in reality seem “poor quality,” mediocre, etc. The ideal isn’t the reality. That’s why over here we always have to be making “_ Great Again.”
,”

 

[roundabout]

It's not a matter who is missing or not (assuming that nobody who was planning to ride the Vuelta originally- that is after the Giro was over - had to skip it), but a matter of form for the riders who are present.

Bernal, Caruso, Vlasov, Carthy, Carapaz, Landa could be reasonably argued are not close to their peak form or the form they have already displayed this season for various reasons.

Again, this is not the statement about the top end performance, but on the depth of the field.

 

[VeloMaster]

Mas in a post interview said that Roglic was slowing them down during his pulls. Go figure.
That means that Roglic wasn't that strong or was playing weak with Movistar.

I hope we get a good race for the win the remaining two weeks!

BTW, in the Colombian podcasts they were full of kudos and congratulations to Movistar. And especially to Mas. However they are afraid of Movistar signing in blood the 2nd and 3rd, as I said before. This last comment came from a Spanish reporter.

He may well have said (or felt) that, but is it actually the case? And if so, why didn't he just ride away from Primoz and chase red? Go back and look at the last kms. It appears to me that the gap over the chasers only opened up once Roglic began to ride.

 

[jmdirt]

I LOVE IT! Nice ride DC!

 

[Eeslliw]

not sure what interview you were watching

That was from Eurosport right after the finish. The other one was probably from spanish media, I would assume.