Vuelta a España Vuelta a España 2022, stage 15: Martos - Sierra Nevada. Alto Hoya de la Mora. Monachil, 152.6k

[Logic-is-your-friend]

It would've been incredibly noble of Roglic to help Evenepoel, but good grief that would've been stupid.

So, let's say Mas and Lopez take 30s more time on the climb and Mas takes second spot in GC ahead of Roglic by a few seconds. Roglic doesn't care, right because he doesn't ride for 2nd or 3rd, he only rides to win. Then next week Evenepoel is out with Covid, and Mas takes red, and Roglic who didn't care about 2nd, takes 2nd. Yeah, that would have been stupid.

Every rider in front of you is an extra rider you have to pass if you want to win. So Mas was not just a threat to Evenepoel, he was not just a threat for Roglic' 2nd place. He was also a threat for Roglic in case he wants 1st place. He was inviting a 3rd dog into the fight.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Slow day at work today Logic?

 

[Oldermanish]

So, let's say Mas and Lopez take 30s more time on the climb and Mas takes second spot in GC ahead of Roglic by a few seconds. Roglic doesn't care, right because he doesn't ride for 2nd or 3rd, he only rides to win. Then next week Evenepoel is out with Covid, and Mas takes red, and Roglic who didn't care about 2nd, takes 2nd. Yeah, that would have been stupid.

Every rider in front of you is an extra rider you have to pass if you want to win. So Mas was not just a threat to Evenepoel, he was not just a threat for Roglic' 2nd place. He was also a threat for Roglic in case he wants 1st place. He was inviting a 3rd dog into the fight.

So let's say the fantasy you'd hoped would happen didn't and the GC is where it is?

Roglic isn't racing for second, as almost everyone knows. Motivating the guy in currently in first place to work and weaken is smarter tactics than pulling him to the next person after you on his threat list. The fact that the number 1 guy actually did the pulling was his miscalulation. Evaluating that gap could have been additional motivation for Primoz to go all out with 3km when everyone else is riding like the walking dead and can't adjust their tempo.
Making Roglic's riding a character issue is not a mature conjecture, just 'cause you want it to be so. You can't deny he's passed the tough character test many times and owes nothing to us.
If Mas and he drop Remco and Mas beats him by several seconds and wins Vuelta 2022 might make you happy but it doesn't change the tactics of the moment.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

López was here to win the stage. He didn't win the stage. Mas could move up in GC and be closer to GC leader. He did gain some time on Roglič. That much is true. Still being second in GC and closer to race leader is in my opinion a better outcome.

But OK. Roglič should do it alone. Fine. It's just this was not the stage to do it alone. Dragging all three up the hill for 15km. And expecting to gain something at all. That would be rather naive. Contrary to preserving some strength for week 3 and still gaining time on race leader on stage 15.

But they would have needed to have put three minutes into Evenepoel for Mas to be 2nd, because he'd still have to overcome Rogla, and if he was riding with Rogla then he isn't putting time into him.

Time which he later did put into Rogla by attacking, then for several kilometres Rogla sat on Evenepoel's wheel while the Belgian chased, and Mas and López were up the road.

But Mas and López are the guys that didn't do their bit because they didn't help maximise Roglič's gains and instead did what was best for their own aims? You do know that they're wearing different jerseys to Roglič for a reason, right?

 

[Riek s]

I don't think Evenepoel could respond to Mas. He wasn't sitting pretty, cause otherwise he doesn't lose almost 5s/km to Mas on a 5% climb. Especially if you respond once, and then Roglic counters your ass and joins MAL. Now it's a very reasonable assumption at that point that Roglic is probably weak, but you also don't wanna play tactical games with a guy who probably doesn't care about 2nd place all too much.

Just looked at a summary and the gap at 8.2km before the finish was:
1m29 group Mas
2min Remco

at the finish:
Mas 1m23
Remco 1m59

So they rode about the same pace for the last 8.2km. (which accentuates the performance of Arensman btw. Guess he had a less hard start of the climb, but still amazing performance)

 

[Red Rick]

Just looked at a summary and the gap at 8.2km before the finish was:
1m29 group Mas
2min Remco

at the finish:
Mas 1m23
Remco 1m59

So they rode about the same pace for the last 8.2km. (which accentuates the performance of Arensman btw. Guess he had a less hard start of the climb, but still amazing performance)

Yes, and it cost MAL and Mas no energy whatsoever to get a gap.

 

[Riek s]

Yes, and it cost MAL and Mas no energy whatsoever to get a gap.

Just saying, but Vervaeke was driving a not so fast pace, carapaz was almost back pulling Almeida/Ayuso & Rodriguez untill Remco took over. So big part of the gap they indeed got for 'free'. Yes they did a good acceleration to gain a few of those seconds, but the biggest chunk they got for free, but afterwards they had eachother + teammate to sit behind. And it was the moment remco started pacing they didn't take more time even with 2 and a helper. (Maybe Mas had it a bit harder since he needed to catch up to Lopez asap, but Lopez escape was free).

as stated in my previous post, the differences between most of those riders were due to tactical choices, not due to strength.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Libertine Seguros

And don't you feel that Roglič, López and Mas could have put some serious time in Evenepoel? If they would start at the bottom, manage to distance Evenepoel and after to collaborate? To do all that for their selfish reasons. To be happy about the outcome at the end. If succeeded.

But OK. They were not prepared to do that. And that is on why Roglič did the right thing. Decided not to drag them up a 15km climb. For nothing. As such decisions go both ways.

In that case he would likely not even be able to stomp. Could end up losing a couple of seconds. Compared to preserving more energy for week 3 and gaining 15 seconds on race leader.

P.S. As for all debates regarding wheel sucking. Just rewind the replay of stage 15 a couple of minutes into the end of the stage 14. And that in my opinion should clear the dilemma.

 

[Oldermanish]

And on to stage 16 where all project Mads to win it. Me too as long as Coquard concedes.....

 

[Libertine Seguros]

@Libertine Seguros

And don't you feel that Roglič, López and Mas could have put some serious time in Evenepoel? If they would start at the bottom, manage to distance Evenepoel and after to collaborate? To do all that for their selfish reasons. To be happy about the outcome at the end. If succeeded.

But OK. They were not prepared to do that. And that is on why Roglič did the right thing. Decided not to drag them up a 15km climb. For nothing. As such decisions go both ways.

In that case he would likely not even be able to stomp. Could end up losing a couple of seconds. Compared to preserving more energy for week 3 and gaining 15 seconds on race leader.

P.S. As for all debates regarding wheel sucking. Just rewind the replay of stage 15 a couple of minutes into the end of the stage 14. And that in my opinion should clear the dilemma.

And what if they don't put time into Evenepoel because he was still relatively fresh at that point? Or what if they then can't distance Roglič? You're criticising the GC riders who gained the most out of the stage for not working with a guy who's already ahead of them on GC. Roglič stands to gain the most out of collaborating with them, because he's the one that will inherit the lead. Therefore the lion's share of the responsibility for pacing falls on him. The long amount of lower gradient tempo grinding that followed Hazallanas was always likely to kill off a lot of the action on it, hence the disappointment at the change from the Las Sabinas road to the highway.

Now, had he attacked and dropped Evenepoel and they'd gone with him, it's a different story, they can likely work together until the gap is enough that they can then play it tactically. But as long as Evenepoel was in the group and Roglič was prepared to set the tempo, then the smartest thing for them to do is sit in and pick their time to attack, since the guy in 1st is in the group and suffering, and the guy in 2nd is expending energy on the front. I don't think you can sell that stage in a way that paints Rogla as the guy that did all he could and Mas and López as the cowards, even if you buy into the critical interpretation of Mas and you support Rogla.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Libertine Seguros

All three had much to gain and all three knew exactly what was at stake. As you said yes Roglič did his part. The other two didn't respond. At that point it was over. In regards to Roglič and his motivation. To try to gain heaps of time at this stage.

As for the question. And what about if they tried and couldn't drop Evenepoel. Well then they would regroup and the final outcome would likely still be rather similar.

But OK you seem to stand behind your claim that Mas was the clear winner on stage 15. As he gained some time on Roglič. If he feels like that then good for him.

P.S. Personally i feel that Roglič did rather good too. Considering all the circumstances.

 

[Red Rick]

And what if they don't put time into Evenepoel because he was still relatively fresh at that point? Or what if they then can't distance Roglič? You're criticising the GC riders who gained the most out of the stage for not working with a guy who's already ahead of them on GC. Roglič stands to gain the most out of collaborating with them, because he's the one that will inherit the lead. Therefore the lion's share of the responsibility for pacing falls on him. The long amount of lower gradient tempo grinding that followed Hazallanas was always likely to kill off a lot of the action on it, hence the disappointment at the change from the Las Sabinas road to the highway.

Now, had he attacked and dropped Evenepoel and they'd gone with him, it's a different story, they can likely work together until the gap is enough that they can then play it tactically. But as long as Evenepoel was in the group and Roglič was prepared to set the tempo, then the smartest thing for them to do is sit in and pick their time to attack, since the guy in 1st is in the group and suffering, and the guy in 2nd is expending energy on the front. I don't think you can sell that stage in a way that paints Rogla as the guy that did all he could and Mas and López as the cowards, even if you buy into the critical interpretation of Mas and you support Rogla.

All 4 rode tactically well yesterday.

1. Roglic wasn't feeling good, but he had to test if Evenepoel was as bad as the day before anyway. When that didn't happen, damage limitation and don't lose the Vuelta outright. Also Jumbo had a good plan with trying to get helpers over Hazallanas but Dennis and Oomen went AWOL.

2. Mas did what could be asked of him. He attacked when he coudl be reasonably sure Roglic wasn't gonna do it and Evenepoel wasn't gonna chase him back, + Vervaeckes pace was probably falling. Also didn't have domestiques.

3. MAL was the only one with a helper up the road, and that's also a logical reason to be the first one to attack.

4. Evenepoel rode very sensible too, making sure to not blow up or encourage a stop/starting race on Hazallanas.


There's only one guy who made a strategical blunder.

Spoiler

Valverde, bruh how do you miss that break.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Spoiler

Valverde, bruh how do you miss that break.

Valverde is still missing the Zubeldia Award on his palmarès

 

[CyclistAbi]

In my opinion for Roglič at stage 15 it was to collaborate or to stomp. If at minimum López would show interest and join in. In my opinion Roglič would collaborate. He would find the legs. López likely to win the stage. As that didn't happen Roglič went into stomp mode. Alternative would be drag some wheel suckers up the hill. Blow yourself up. Gain nothing. And after to listen to @Logic-is-your-friend on how stupid he was riding like that. And on how smart Evenepoel was to suck wheel. And then to came through the finish line with Roglič. As Evenepoel in my opinion isn't MTF sprinter just yet.

 

[Valv.Piti]

In my opinion for Roglič at stage 15 it was to collaborate or to stomp. If at minimum López would show interest and join in. In my opinion Roglič would collaborate. He would find the legs. López likely to win the stage. As that didn't happen Roglič went into stomp mode. Alternative would be drag some wheel suckers up the hill. Blow yourself up. Gain nothing. And after to listen to @Logic-is-your-friend on how stupid he was riding like that. And on how smart Evenepoel was to suck wheel. And then to came through the finish line with Roglič. As Evenepoel in my opinion isn't MTF sprinter just yet.

You're living in fantasy-world, thats what you do.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

@Libertine Seguros

All three had much to gain and all three knew exactly what was at stake. As you said yes Roglič did his part. The other two didn't respond. At that point it was over. In regards to Roglič and his motivation. To try to gain heaps of time at this stage.

As for the question. And what about if they tried and couldn't drop Evenepoel. Well then they would regroup and the final outcome would likely still be rather similar.

But OK you seem to stand behind your claim that Mas was the clear winner on stage 15. As he gained some time on Roglič. If he feels like that then good for him.

P.S. Personally i feel that Roglič did rather good too. Considering all the circumstances.

Except if they tried and couldn't drop Evenepoel then they use up energy and don't have that energy available to make the attack that they later did.

Of the top 3 on the GC, of course I stand by my claim that Mas was the clear winner on the stage. He finished ahead of the other two and gained time on both, gaining back much of the time that he lost on La Pandera to Rogla and chipping away slowly at Evenepoel's lead. With the stages to come it may not be enough of course, and Mas has fewer weapons at his disposal than them, and also bearing in mind Movistar's precarious points situation he can't afford to race with the kind of reckless abandon we might want to see, because he can't risk throwing away 3rd place on an all-or-nothing move, so it's not surprising that he wouldn't throw an earlier hail mary to help Roglič in the hope of Evenepoel blowing up, and risk doing so himself when he did precisely that only 24 hours earlier.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@Libertine Seguros

If all three wouldn't be able to tackle Evenepoel. Then good luck to Mas doing that alone. But OK. Your claim is Mas gained the most time on both. And that is above everything else. If he feels that way then that is fine with me. If there was never more at play at this stage. For him.

Roglič taking 15 seconds on race leader. Without Mas and López. That in the end likely works for Roglič too. Given the other alternative. Somehow to gain more time than that and to do that alone. Having a bunch of wheel suckers at back.

López. He had a team member up the road.

Looks like all winners on this stage.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Your claim is Mas gained the most time on both. And that is above everything else.

My claim is backed up by the results of the stage and the objective of road bicycle racing.

 

[zlev11]

So, let's say Mas and Lopez take 30s more time on the climb and Mas takes second spot in GC ahead of Roglic by a few seconds. Roglic doesn't care, right because he doesn't ride for 2nd or 3rd, he only rides to win. Then next week Evenepoel is out with Covid, and Mas takes red, and Roglic who didn't care about 2nd, takes 2nd. Yeah, that would have been stupid.

Every rider in front of you is an extra rider you have to pass if you want to win. So Mas was not just a threat to Evenepoel, he was not just a threat for Roglic' 2nd place. He was also a threat for Roglic in case he wants 1st place. He was inviting a 3rd dog into the fight.

it's called risking a loss for a chance at the win. his best option was to let Remco waste himself on the front. he was ready to gamble that Mas was not going to take a full minute on him for a chance to gain time on the more immediate threat.

 

[SHAD0W93]

@Libertine Seguros

If all three wouldn't be able to tackle Evenepoel. Then good luck to Mas doing that alone. But OK. Your claim is Mas gained the most time on both. And that is above everything else. If he feels that way then that is fine with me. If there was never more at play at this stage. For him.

Roglič taking 15 seconds on race leader. Without Mas and López. That in the end likely works for Roglič too. Given the other alternative. Somehow to gain more time than that and to do that alone. Having a bunch of wheel suckers at back.

López. He had a team member up the road.

Looks like all winners on this stage.

You want Mas and MAL to help Roglic in a spot that they weren’t able to help in from having to work to catch back up and when Evenepoel started the tempo. If you’re looking for someone to blame for not helping Roglic at that point, you can blame TJV. They had the numbers and completely blew it, losing each other’s wheel and attacking at different points, bringing Evenepoel back to Roglic. That’s not MAL and Mas’s fault. That’s TJV’s fault. As has been said, they could have done many different approaches to how the stage ended with only Quickstep and Astana playing the cards well with teammates in the breakaway.

 

[Kwibus]

So, let's say Mas and Lopez take 30s more time on the climb and Mas takes second spot in GC ahead of Roglic by a few seconds. Roglic doesn't care, right because he doesn't ride for 2nd or 3rd, he only rides to win. Then next week Evenepoel is out with Covid, and Mas takes red, and Roglic who didn't care about 2nd, takes 2nd. Yeah, that would have been stupid.

Every rider in front of you is an extra rider you have to pass if you want to win. So Mas was not just a threat to Evenepoel, he was not just a threat for Roglic' 2nd place. He was also a threat for Roglic in case he wants 1st place. He was inviting a 3rd dog into the fight.

You clearly didn't read my posts as I clearly said that Roglic would've attacked Evenepoel if he felt that Evenepoel was fading and couldn't keep the gap within a minute or so.

He wouldn't start pulling though, no he would attack Evenepoel. If he couldn't drop Evenepoel at that point then it would've been interesting to see if Roglic would've start help pulling, but to be honest I don't he would've, but that's speculating ofcourse.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Ad hominems and contempt? I thought it was you trying to explain to me what the sport was all about?
We're on an internet forum, if you can't handle hyperbole then turn off your computer and steer clear of any sort of social interaction online. Ha! I did it again! If people need to take every hyperbole at face value and can't see the humor or miss the context, that's on them. That 's just like saying you can't use sarcasm anymore because not everyone gets it. But sure, i do use a lot of hyperbole, mainly because i think it is fun. Same with sarcasm tbh.
I also am much more for supporting a rider, than anti-supporting a rival unlike a lot of posters here. You will not easily see me sht on a rider, just for the fact that i don't like him. If a rider does something i think is shitty, i will call it out, but that's that. Which is what i did here before everybody felt the need to tell me i was not entitled to have an opinion. Also people sometimes find the need to keep debating something which is obvious. Like last month half the forum jumped down my throat for stating Evenepoel is clearly a more talented TT'er than Küng. What a crazy thing to say.

Dude you are at like an 11/10 at all times. I am not even sure what to say to a lot of this, so I’ll just leave this alone. You’re right, though, I did engage in a bit of light ad hominem, so consider me properly chastened. I’ll let the rest of this lie though as I am also more interested in celebrating good riders than whatever this is I’ve started somehow. Enjoy the ride man. If I were as big a Remco fan as you are I’d be feeling prettay good

 

[tobydawq]

Wait, are people actually criticising Roglic for not riding with Remco when not doing so was his only chance of winning the Vuelta? I only watched it yesterday evening so haven't been able to follow discussions. But oh, boy...

 

[Netserk]

Wait, are people actually criticising Roglic for not riding with Remco when not doing so was his only chance of winning the Vuelta? I only watched it yesterday evening so haven't been able to follow discussions. But oh, boy...

It was in fact unsportsmanlike of Roglič, according to @Logic-is-your-friend.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Wait, are people actually criticising Roglic for not riding with Remco when not doing so was his only chance of winning the Vuelta? I only watched it yesterday evening so haven't been able to follow discussions. But oh, boy...

Mas sucking wheel is also the only way for him to win anything, so why is it okay for the entire forum to be critical of him 100% of the time? Why does any rider ever suck wheel other than trying to keep himself in contention? Hypocricy is off the charts here. And the point was not that Roglic didn't help, it was that he did not help and then fired a cheap shot at 1500m from the finish. Either would have been cool, but in combination to me it shows little class. No need to re-open up the discussion, i'm sure what you would want to respond has already been said by others in the previous pages.