Vuelta a España Vuelta a España, stage 6: La Vall d'Uixó - Pico del Buitre, 183.1k

[Libertine Seguros]

That's a false equivalence. Every single one of those is a superior rider compared to Madrazo, and won from a superior breakaway compared to the Javalambre one.

Rabottini? Foliforov? Really?

Also Hushovd, not because he isn't obviously a better rider than Madrazo but because he is also demonstrably not a better climber than Madrazo.

 

[tobydawq]

Rabottini? Foliforov? Really?

Also Hushovd, not because he isn't obviously a better rider than Madrazo but because he is also demonstrably not a better climber than Madrazo.

Do you think Rabottini and Foliforov won in similar circumstances?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Do you think Rabottini and Foliforov won in similar circumstances?

This was about the comment about their status as riders at the time of their stage wins, not a comment on the stages in question.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Rabottini? Foliforov? Really?

Also Hushovd, not because he isn't obviously a better rider than Madrazo but because he is also demonstrably not a better climber than Madrazo.

Rabottini also won the KOM jersey that Giro. Foliforov outclimbed all the GC guys to win that MTT. Both were obviously career-best performances, but necessitated better climbing than anything Madrazo ever managed, let alone anything Madrazo managed in the years surrounding that Vuelta stage. Hushovds mountain stage had its first and only climb at over 40 kilometres from the line, both descending skills and rouleur ability mattered a lot in that stage otherwise he would never have won it - had it been an MTF, he would have lost by two minutes. There is no way any version of Madrazo does better than Roy and Moncoutié did that day. Also, unlike Madrazo, Hushovds climbing was at its best ever at the time he won his mountain stage (otherwise he never holds yellow on Super Besse), so the career H2H is meaningless.

 

[ontheroad]

I think Jumbo must be supremely confident of their abilities in the longer mountain stages as they have shown very little to date in this race. Some might even say that they have disrespected Remco a little. Vingegaard for example spent 40 odd days of racing at the last 2 Tours practically glued to the wheel of Pogacar but it’s clear that Remco isn’t held in the same esteem. He was allowed sprint for 6 bonus seconds today practically uncontested and Roglic has also been fairly invisible thus far. Jumbo were also content to race back in mid division during the stage finale.

However I expect this might change tomorrow as they will have to use their strength in numbers. They have the personnel and the numbers to take the race on tomorrow should they choose it. We might have a better idea after tomorrows stage who is going to emerge as their team leaderif it turns into a war of attrition. I expect that Jumbo will play the old 1=2 card similar to Granon more than once during this Vuelta and it could well be payback time for Roglic from the assistance he gave Vingegaard during last years Tour.

 

[topcat]

GC day. I expect Jumbo to drill it, Rog and Vingo to try the old 1-2 and Remco to smash them all.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Rabottini also won the KOM jersey that Giro. Foliforov outclimbed all the GC guys to win that MTT. Both were obviously career-best performances, but necessitated better climbing than anything Madrazo ever managed, let alone anything Madrazo managed in the years surrounding that Vuelta stage. Hushovds mountain stage had its first and only climb at over 40 kilometres from the line, both descending skills and rouleur ability mattered a lot in that stage otherwise he would never have won it - had it been an MTF, he would have lost by two minutes. There is no way any version of Madrazo does better than Roy and Moncoutié did that day. Also, unlike Madrazo, Hushovds climbing was at its best ever at the time he won his mountain stage (otherwise he never holds yellow on Super Besse), so the career H2H is meaningless.

Rabottini might have had to manage better climbing than Madrazo to win his stage, but partly that's to do with the Giro still actually having multi-mountain stages back then, which the Vuelta has really moved away from.

Look at his career up to that point, Ángel Madrazo has far more worthwhile climbing performances up to that stage than Rabottini has. Yes, he was a mediocre journeyman by the time he won that Vuelta stage, but Rabottini was a complete no-name whose only notable performance was a breakaway stage of the Tour of Turkey and a Girobio stage.

To the 2012 Giro, Rabottini had scored a career 96 CQ points. Ángel Madrazo - who is 11 months younger - had scored 462 by the start of the Giro. People (albeit many of them biased and overly expectant Spaniards) were legitimately thinking Madrazo could be a major player at that point in his career and were getting frustrated with how slowly Unzué was bringing him along, albeit more likely in hilly one-day races as that's where his best results to that point had been. We can look at the performances of those isolated days and say Rabottini was more impressive and Madrazo never really developed, and Unzué was treating him like that because he wasn't showing the improvement anticipated, but it doesn't make Rabottini any more of a name at the time he took that win. He was an absolute nobody at that point and more people would have known who Madrazo was when he won his Vuelta stage than would have known who Rabottini was when he won his Giro stage.

 

[staubsauger]

@Libertine Seguros @Devil's Elbow

No love for Daniele Ratto?

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Rabottini might have had to manage better climbing than Madrazo to win his stage, but partly that's to do with the Giro still actually having multi-mountain stages back then, which the Vuelta has really moved away from.

Look at his career up to that point, Ángel Madrazo has far more worthwhile climbing performances up to that stage than Rabottini has. Yes, he was a mediocre journeyman by the time he won that Vuelta stage, but Rabottini was a complete no-name whose only notable performance was a breakaway stage of the Tour of Turkey and a Girobio stage.

To the 2012 Giro, Rabottini had scored a career 96 CQ points. Ángel Madrazo - who is 11 months younger - had scored 462 by the start of the Giro. People (albeit many of them biased and overly expectant Spaniards) were legitimately thinking Madrazo could be a major player at that point in his career and were getting frustrated with how slowly Unzué was bringing him along, albeit more likely in hilly one-day races as that's where his best results to that point had been. We can look at the performances of those isolated days and say Rabottini was more impressive and Madrazo never really developed, and Unzué was treating him like that because he wasn't showing the improvement anticipated, but it doesn't make Rabottini any more of a name at the time he took that win. He was an absolute nobody at that point and more people would have known who Madrazo was when he won his Vuelta stage than would have known who Rabottini was when he won his Giro stage.

My point was never about how well-known Madrazo is/was compared to Rabottini, but about how good they were as climbers when they won their stages. My point was also about how Madrazo was far less of an outlier MTF winner in the Vuelta of the 2010s than he would have been in the Giro and the Tour of the same decade - King twice (back-to-back MTFs!), Armée, Lagutin, Lindeman, Ratto (@staubsauger ), Piedra and Sijmens all come to mind. While not all of those are worse than the likes of Rabottini, that is definitely a worse weakest nine MTF winners than the Tour or Giro managed in the same decade. This decade has been much better in this regard so far - Taaramäe and Champoussin are probably the weakest MTF winners from 2020 onwards and both run rings around the names listed above.

 

[red_flanders]

Egan Bernal from the break.

That would be great to see.

 

[red_flanders]

I heard a rumour that Remco was riding around the peloton in the last 2 stages trying to recruit riders to the breakaway for today with the promise of a prestigious red jersey.

He was allegedly seen in deep conversation with remy rochas, steff crass, jefferson cepeda , David de la crux and juanpedro Lopez. I don't know if these rumour are true but there is certainly no containing remco's scheming mind. Let's see what happens on the Pixo del biutre observatorieo astrofisico de Javalajambre tomorrow.

I don’t know if these rumors are true, but here, let me spread them around and say things like “Remco’s scheming mind” just to add to the inanity of my post.

 

[Izzyeviel]

Almost the entire forum rightfully disliked Bais winning on Gran Sasso from an utterly godawful breakaway. To see people reminiscing about Madrazo winning a harder MTF from an equally awful breakaway is baffling to me. Seriously, how do you look at one of the 50 worst climbers in the race winning a big MTF and wish for something similar to happen this time?

Did we? I thought we were happy the breakaway won then. Twas the part where Ineos & Jumbo insisted on giving Remco a free taxi ride we disliked.

 

[Tonton]

I hope that Romain Bardet bounces back and wins from the break. Allez Romain!!!

Gaps between the contenders should be none or minimal: the big story could be how Lenny Martinez handles the challenge. A good day would be a big leap in terms of experience and confidence. Me the Frenchie will watch that.

Arnaud was born before Madonna's legendary concert in Paris, so I'll call him what he is: a primadonna who should have won a stage by now in this Vuelta. He's not here for the team, he's pouting. Me the Frenchie sees a missed opportunity.

A solid break can make it, Vingo will watch Remco and respond, Rog could be the ace in JV's sleeve to Pog Remco. Early on. Set him up for ghost chasing. And me the Frenchie will root for Remco.

 

[Potomac]

Vingegaard to mark and kill all moves. He, Rogla, Evenepoel and Ayuso will finish within 5". The breakaway takes the stage and all bonus seconds.

Could you be more specific?

 

[ManicJack]

This was about the comment about their status as riders at the time of their stage wins, not a comment on the stages in question.

Actually this thread is about stage 6 of the Vuelta. Take your nuanced argument somewhere else. It gets old when you disrupt almost every thread.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Arnaud was born before Madonna's legendary concert in Paris, so I'll call him what he is: a primadonna who should have won a stage by now in this Vuelta. He's not here for the team, he's pouting. Me the Frenchie sees a missed opportunity.

Which Arnaud are you talking about? There isn't one at the Vuelta, and as for Démare he's no longer with Groupama and therefore no longer pouting, but crashed hard twice at the Renewi Tour and hasn't raced since.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Actually this thread is about stage 6 of the Vuelta. Take your nuanced argument somewhere else. It gets old when you disrupt almost every thread.

Disrupting almost every thread? Libertine? Arguably the best poster on here? What the *** are you on about?

Also, who made you a moderator?

 

[tobydawq]

Did we? I thought we were happy the breakaway won then. Twas the part where Ineos & Jumbo insisted on giving Remco a free taxi ride we disliked.

No, we certainly disliked such a weak break making it.

Apart from Brian Holm who was about to declare it the best stage of the Giro if Vacek had managed to win, people rightfully slammed that horror of a stage.

 

[Netserk]

It's patently obvious that the breakaways are worse in the Vuelta and it's easier to win stages there. In the Tour this year, the weakest breakaway winner was either Poels or Izagirre, which is pretty crazy.

 

[RedheadDane]

No, we certainly disliked such a weak break making it.

I quite liked the fact that an Eolo-Kometa rider won. If only for Contador's reaction.

 

[staubsauger]

I quite liked the fact that an Eolo-Kometa rider won. If only for Contador's reaction.

I was actually jubilating once it looked like Vacek could take it.

 

[Gratemans]

It's patently obvious that the breakaways are worse in the Vuelta and it's easier to win stages there. In the Tour this year, the weakest breakaway winner was either Poels or Izagirre, which is pretty crazy.

Huh, fun fact. I didn't even realise that.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

No, we certainly disliked such a weak break making it.

Apart from Brian Holm who was about to declare it the best stage of the Giro if Vacek had managed to win, people rightfully slammed that horror of a stage.

But was that because the break was weak but because such a weak break was allowed to make it by such a soporific péloton? I feel like the riders in that weak break were the winners that that stage deserved because it was raced so awfully.

After all, I hate the Mont Aigoual stage in 2020 and its aftermath has led to a three year hate affair. But I don't hate the Mont Aigoual stage in 2020 because of Alexey Lutsenko (who of course is a perfectly good mountain stage breakaway winner, more akin to the likes of Rafał Majka or Mikel Nieve as mountain stage winners than the likes of Bais or Madrazo), Jesús Herrada, Neilson Powless or Greg van Avermaet, but because of the GC men behind who rode a climb like that in such a fashion as to lose time to the break.

I feel that while the low quality of the break serves to exacerbate things in the Gran Sasso stage, it isn't about people hating on Mattia Bais for winning, but hating on the racing being in such a negative fashion that Mattia Bais was even in the mix for winning the stage, so that his winning became emblematic of how poorly it was raced. Like Hesjedal winning the Giro after being in poor form in week 1 and nobody taking any initiative to attempt to gain any time or distance any contenders, or Gerrans winning Liège-Bastogne-Liège after pretty much zero attacks by anybody all day, it was like, here's the meme champion that this race deserves.

That's how I saw it, anyway, YMMV.

 

[stekelegel]

This years tour was exceptional with almost every non GC stage being contested like a one day classic. And the tour attacts the strongest field of all 3 and vuelta in general weakest, just look at the quality of the sprinters. Crazy that no world tour team took a first rate sprinter for some easy stage wins, even with this years route. (for the GC, the vuelta this year has maybe the strongest line up barring pogacar).

on topic, i dont see this as a stage where JV can exploit team strength, QS should be able to contain until last climb and that climb is rather short en steep, not easy to use team tactics there. Strongest will win. Based on sunday, remco serious contender..

 

[Red Rick]

But was that because the break was weak but because such a weak break was allowed to make it by such a soporific péloton? I feel like the riders in that weak break were the winners that that stage deserved because it was raced so awfully.

After all, I hate the Mont Aigoual stage in 2020 and its aftermath has led to a three year hate affair. But I don't hate the Mont Aigoual stage in 2020 because of Alexey Lutsenko (who of course is a perfectly good mountain stage breakaway winner, more akin to the likes of Rafał Majka or Mikel Nieve as mountain stage winners than the likes of Bais or Madrazo), Jesús Herrada, Neilson Powless or Greg van Avermaet, but because of the GC men behind who rode a climb like that in such a fashion as to lose time to the break.

I feel that while the low quality of the break serves to exacerbate things in the Gran Sasso stage, it isn't about people hating on Mattia Bais for winning, but hating on the racing being in such a negative fashion that Mattia Bais was even in the mix for winning the stage, so that his winning became emblematic of how poorly it was raced. Like Hesjedal winning the Giro after being in poor form in week 1 and nobody taking any initiative to attempt to gain any time or distance any contenders, or Gerrans winning Liège-Bastogne-Liège after pretty much zero attacks by anybody all day, it was like, here's the meme champion that this race deserves.

That's how I saw it, anyway, YMMV.

Baid winning should be blamed not on the GC guys but on every stage hunter in that peloton